Redcafe Sheep Draft QF4 - antohan vs Gio

[antohan]

SUMMARY

Team Gio:

· Strong, credible spine


· Four defenders who ONLY defend

· Four attackers who contribute nothing to recovery, bar Michel, who wouldn’t be running up and down the pitch anyway (or he would be completely ineffective in his own role)

· This means ONLY up to six players get actively involved in defensive phases and ONLY up to six in offensive ones


· Four defenders who don’t distribute particularly well, compromising the speed of transition.

· The back four are pinned back by the joint threat of Cavani’s and Robben’s pace + the speed and precision of Koeman’s delivery from deep (that’s the entire point of playing someone like him).

· Since the front four don’t contribute much defensively, it’s down to the two CMs to do all the heavy-lifting of recovering against a midfield diamond and its overlapping wingbacks. Recovery fails systematically until the final third


· It’s not a bad or dysfunctional team, it’s just one that has serious transition issues and as a result of having too many specialists doesn’t have anywhere enough players participating actively in all phases of the game.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Forgot to answer this. I said those pics shouldn't be looked at scientifically.

to be fair, though I did comment because it just looked so obvious. Either way, I did vote for you, based on your OP formation and your comments. No obvious flaw in either teams, but I think you will prevail.

 

[antohan]

Team Anto:

· Plays a DM in order to protect the back four, contain Rivaldo and unshackle the wingbacks.

· The cost of playing that DM is losing a forward, but the wingbacks having more freedom would somewhat make up for it (you would think).


· There’s quick and accurate distribution across the park.

· I have an extra/spare man when defending and attacking. It largely boils down to one side having wingbacks who do both things and the other having defensive fullbacks, while I sacrificed a striker for a DM, i.e. +(2-1) in attack and +(1) in defence.

· I build up play in the centre of the park based on a midfield diamond and two wingbacks joining the transition. There's just two CMs tasked with somehow stopping that, with some occasional help from Michel.


· The characteristics of the threat and approach play on either flank are different. There's the tricky winger/with the latent option of an overlapping fullback, while at the other end there's a WC-winning wingback running his flank at will and letting Cavani loose to team up with him, make runs to drag defenders or just go stand in the box playing as a traditional centre-forward.

· Bergkamp is an ideal fulcrum to break down a solid defence and take it out with a single pass. Would be interested in knowing what the resident gunners make of his role here (@peterstorey , @Grinner , @Donaldo , @JazzG , @Eboue , @alastair).

· One of those staying at the back had a 1 in 3 record largely based on taking set pieces.

· Koeman alone scored as much as both of Gio’s wingers jointly, one of them also a set piece "specialist".

· Both Rivaldo and Bergkamp had a 1 in 2 career record. Rivaldo’s peak was more prolific, but Bergkamp's goalscoring contribution is being underrated.

· Vieri scored a tad more than Cavani if you take his absolute peak season and only look at the league. On career rate though, Vieri is 1 in 2 vs. Cavani on 2 in 3 before even peaking.

· I then have Robben spare who is consistently on 1 in 2 or better since he joined Bayern in 2009 (not just last year).


· Goals won't be easy to come by, but I expect to have a greater control over proceedings: more regular recovery, better transition which easily arrives at the final third, and a wide enough portfolio of attributes across Bergkamp, Cavani, Robben, Brehme/Sagnol (different styles), and Koeman to secure the necessary goals. Gio instead is incredibly reliant on Rivaldo who, according to Aldo, faces too negative a defensive midfield overkill.

 

[Gio]

· This means ONLY up to six players get actively involved in defensive phases and ONLY up to six in offensive ones.

Nah this is not true. I've made the same point time and time again concerning the 4-2-3-1 shape, getting the midfield back behind the ball.

If you're going to labour this point then you've got 7 who get actively involved in your definition of defensive phases, and I too have 7! After all there is little likelihood of your front three doing much tracking back and I'm not aware they've been instructed to do so.

 

[Gio]

Forgot to answer this. I said those pics shouldn't be looked at scientifically. .

You're just frustrated they exposed the weaknesses in your game plan. It's not legitimate for those pics to only be used to show weaknesses in mine.

 

[antohan]

Nah this is not true. I've made the same point time and time again concerning the 4-2-3-1 shape, getting the midfield back behind the ball.

So Michel is tracking Brehme and López is tracking Sagnol? Awesome, they'll be knackered by halftime.

Make up your mind, because you said earlier they were asked to stay up and wide ready to exploit the counter opportunities my wingbacks offered.

After all there is little likelihood of your front three doing much tracking back and I'm not aware they've been instructed to do so.

They haven't been instructed to do any tracking back because there's no one for them to track. All four of your defenders offer feck all going forward. It's a shame because Cavani is well capable of a disciplined recovery role but I'm better off with him and Robben keeping four of your players pinned back deep in your own half.

Everyone else is working on recovery bar Bergkamp who is free to explore the vast space between your attacking 6 and that deep defensive line.

Or are you defending high up? It would be interesting to know. We are past half time and we still know nothing much in terms of details re: how exactly you are playing this. Well played.

 

[Gio]

It's pretty clear. Either I get my players back into a solid 4-2-3-1 defensive shape that is hard to break through. Or you commit so heavily forward that you leave a 2 or 3 v 4 situation at the back.

 

[antohan]

You're just frustrated they exposed the weaknesses in your game plan.

Everyone with half an engaged brain cell on how things work could tell there's no significant issue there. We run through it and all you could come up with was an under-pressure Kohler (a right footer) would hook a left-footed Hollywood ball from the six-yard box to deep into my half and about 25 yards from goal, right by touchline. And absolutely none of my players would bother go intercept it, apparently.

Yeah, right.

It's not legitimate for those pics to only be used to show weaknesses in mine.

I wasn't showing a weakness in yours. I was just showing the wingbacks entertain the fullbacks, Robben and Cavani need minding from the CBs and therefore someone surely has to be on Bergkamp. Still don't know who this is. Apparently if he goes deep Simeone and Davids pick him up and if he goes forward he has to penetrate the CB pair. With the CB pair potentially compromised by covering needs, not having someone tracking him from midfield sounds to me like a terrible idea.

 

[Gio]

No need for hollywood balls when you're so top-heavy. All my players would have to do is find anywhere in those red areas. We don't need Riquelme playing sweeper to do that.

 

[Gio]

(@peterstorey , @Grinner , @Donaldo , @JazzG , @Eboue , @alastair).

Really anto are you that desperate for votes? What next, PM-ing folk to get them to contribute? Why do we need this meltdown every time you're behind in a draft match?

 

[sullydnl]

@antohan

You tagged six Arsenal supporters for feedback on Bergkamp's role, pretty sure they don't get an alert once you go over five.

 

[antohan]

It's pretty clear. Either I get my players back into a solid 4-2-3-1 defensive shape that is hard to break through. Or you commit so heavily forward that you leave a 2 or 3 v 4 situation at the back.

And I already told you it's 4-2-0 in defence and 0-2-3-1 in attack. That is six players really doing much in either at any one time.

Your four defenders are facing up to five people (3 FWs + 2 WBs), both ably supported by two CMs from either side.

Of course, your CMs are likely deeper and mixed with that defensive line, while mine are further away and providing options for a pass back to midfield and recycling. Particularly Cocu. It would be fair to argue Michel is keeping tabs on Cocu and not letting him have too much time on the ball when passed back to him. But then that itself also indicates Cocu is close by and fully onto Michel in the event of a turnover ball.

There's absolutely zero need for me to overcommit. I have enough going upfront to get a couple of goals. Bergkamp will invariably take out your entire defence at certain points and play Cavani/Robben through on goal. One goal there, easy. I think there's another from either Koeman or Brehme here, just that gut feel, they always came forward when that little extra was needed.

 

[Balu]

Ffs Theon, your long posts are confusing as hell .

Firstly though I think it is quite funny that you came into the thread and said saying how ridiculous it was that posters see the threat of a counter when an attacking fullback gets forward, yet you do see a threat in Brehme exploiting Bergomi moving slightly out of position. So a winger can't exploit a fullback bombing forward, but a fullback can exploit another fullback moving 10 or so yards. Seems silly to me.

Just this part, maybe the rest later. Two completely different situations. 1. Imagine Brehme receiving the ball and Cavani, 10 yards away, starting his run towards goal? How will Bergomi track Cavani till Campbell takes over and then be back in time to defend against Brehme? 2. Imagine Brehme crossing the ball in, Michel 20 yards away, and watching Kohler clear it towards Davids? More than enough time to read the situation and get back in defense to defend.

Brehme is attacking when Anto is in possession and defending when Gio is in possession of the ball. Bergomi is defending against 2 players at the same time. I don't understand why you think it's funny to suggest that Bergomi is more likely to be in trouble here, when his job is basically impossible? If Bergomi is too late and Brehme gets a low cross or a defense splitting pass in, Cavani dragged Campbell out of position, Kohler has to be aware of Bergkamp's movement and Robben's run into the box is all of a sudden a huge danger.

Now, here's how I would defend against Brehme:
Michel is tracking Brehme, Simeone keeping an eye on the situation and helping out. Bergomi will track Cavani's run, Campbell or Kohler will keep an eye on Bergkamp. Simeone will try to force Brehme to pass back to Cocu or Koeman, which gives the defense time to get back in shape and makes it difficult to create something dangerous there. In case Brehme gets a cross in anyway, Bergomi helps against Cavani and all of a sudden one of the two centerbacks is free to make sure that Robben won't get a foot on the ball. Simeone on Brehme also makes sure that he can't move inside and get a dangerous shot on goal. Of course you still need to be aware what happens in midfield, but at least you force Anto to commit more players in attack or gain enough time to organise the defense again.

The idea that Bergomi and Campbell together can shut out Brehme and Cavani and not leave a completely disorganised defense behind is ridiculous. I don't get why anyone would even suggest that, when there's a perfectly suited 3rd player available to help out.

 

[Thisistheone]

Really anto are you that desperate for votes? What next, PM-ing folk to get them to contribute? Why do we need this meltdown every time you're behind in a draft match?

Calling out the Arsenal fans for Bergkamp votes!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Come on Gents. Let's keep it civil.

 

[antohan]

@antohan

You tagged six Arsenal supporters for feedback on Bergkamp's role, pretty sure they don't get an alert once you go over five.

Doesn't matter, five would be enough to get some feedback on that. I understand it's better if Bergkamp has one more forward in his vicinity, more options is always better with a player like him. I just don't get this bollocks about "did Bergkamp ever play false 9? It's different from being a support striker". Bergkamp wasn't "just" a support striker, all his attributes indicate to me he is ideal to break down that defence.

Honest, would anyone bat an eyelid at the formation below? (bar Robben evidently not being fairly represented). How is that significantly different though as far as Bergkamp is concerned?

 

[antohan]

No need for hollywood balls when you're so top-heavy. All my players would have to do is find anywhere in those red areas. We don't need Riquelme playing sweeper to do that.

Can't you read? I gave you a perfectly good and reasonable explanation for why this is pure senastionalist tabloid-style bollocks.

Can't be arsed, off to the funeral.

Whatever happens, well played Goebbels.

 

[antohan]

Really anto are you that desperate for votes? What next, PM-ing folk to get them to contribute? Why do we need this meltdown every time you're behind in a draft match?

Seeing as no one on here seems to have the first clue about whether Bergkamp can perform in that role I would happily have their feedback.

Feel free to alert all Barca supporters to come feed back on Rivaldo, although that is clearly not necessary and they may actually be more inclined to appreciate Koeman and Cocu than most on here.

 

[Gio]

Time and time again I've said Michel will track Brehme. The whole idea behind a 4-2-3-1 defensive shape is getting the midfield back behind the ball and still be well placed to pass it out on turnover of possession. If Anto wants to overload and place his full-backs as part of a front five then I'll take my chances on the oceans of space that will be available on turnover of possession. So much of modern football centres around what happens when possession changes hands - who do we think is better placed to exploit it? The one with half a back four marooned on the edge of my box, or the one with the back four concentrating on doing their primary job.

 

[antohan]

Calling out the Arsenal fans for Bergkamp votes!

While you are at it you could explain how you so quickly concluded on the outcome here.

I spent your entire game arguing Cutch was lacking the outball for the counter against you, and how your greater control of the game would prevail with your forwards eventually finding a way through.

You seemed to agree back then. Sure, there are differences in personnel, but the issues are largely the same. In fact, Robben provides something out by the touchline which netiher Savicevic nor Suárez did yet I kept banging on you had enough width and weren't congesting things centrally.

Amazing really.

 

[sullydnl]

Doesn't matter, five would be enough to get some feedback on that.

Sorry, I meant none of the tagged posters will get an alert once you go above five. If you want any feedback from them you'll need to tag five of them again (I think).

 

[Donaldo]

Anto gets my vote. All the best.

 

[antohan]

Time and time again I've said Michel will track Brehme.

Michel will be wasted by half time then, a high price to pay for tracking as a rather ineffectual defender. I think the right call is him being on Cocu, which I still believe is what happens and then Michel isn't wasted, can do his thing, but not really ahve any such acres of space because, surprise surprise, Cocu is covering Brehme while he gets back.

If Anto wants to overload and place his full-backs as part of a front five then I'll take my chances on the oceans of space that will be available on turnover of possession.

Cocu was a left-footed, left-sided defensive midfielder. He can cover Brehme easily in defence while not being as effective as him going forward. It makes sense for Brehme to be upfront and there's no gaping hole left behind.

Thuram is the best defensive rightback in the draft and will cover Sagnol at ease. Further up the pitch Schweinsteiger used to play as a right winger, he will be fully aware and clued up about anything that emerges. Somewhere in Between Popescu is also available to cover. There's plenty of cover, and plenty fo time to execute it and regroup.

Sagnol himself won't be overcommitted unless the overlap with Robben is on. If he overlaps I have the ball, have taken out Carboni, and Kohler is coming out to pick up Robben as the cross comes in.

If there is no overlap and Robben cuts inside then Sagnol takes a step back from it all, he won't stand by the corner flag when the play has clearly moved on elsewhere.

 

[antohan]

Sorry, I meant none of the tagged posters will get an alert once you go above five. If you want any feedback from them you'll need to tag five of them again (I think).

I think it's the sixth that doesn't. It would make sense for it to work as a limit, not to rule out all the previous ones. No?

 

[Gio]

While you are at it you could explain how you so quickly concluded on the outcome here.

I spent your entire game arguing Cutch was lacking the outball for the counter against you, and how your greater control of the game would prevail with your forwards eventually finding a way through.

You seemed to agree back then. Sure, there are differences in personnel, but the issues are largely the same. In fact, Robben provides something out by the touchline which netiher Savicevic nor Suárez did yet I kept banging on you had enough width.

Amazing really.

When did TITO vote? I think we exchanged about 80 posts between each other and the score was only 1-1. If that's not enough evidence to take a decision, then there'll never be enough.

 

[Theon]

Brehme is attacking when Anto is in possession and defending when Gio is in possession of the ball. Bergomi is defending against 2 players at the same time. I don't understand why you think it's funny to suggest that Bergomi is more likely to be in trouble here, when his job is basically impossible? If Bergomi is too late and Brehme gets a low cross or a defense splitting pass in, Cavani dragged Campbell out of position, Kohler has to be aware of Bergkamp's movement and Robben's run into the box is all of a sudden a huge danger.

None of that was even remotely confusing! At least, I couldn't have explained it any clearer for you which is why it ended up being so long. Which parts confused you?

It is really quite simple - right backs can do other things besides defend against an opposition fullback. It is only when the danger becomes immediate that they need to concern themselves with the fullback. Not difficult really. If Brehme is 10 yards away then Bergomi of course wouldn't vacate the space, I said that three or four times. If the fullback is a more typical 20/30 yards away then as long as Bergomi gets back in time then it really isn't a problem. Fullbacks track wingers all the time - it's their main job

Anyway, I have explained to you how the defending works in the other post so instead of going over it again I'll wait until/if you reply to it. Really can't be bothered to type it all out again.

I'll respond to this quoted bit though - You've missed the point there really with the first sentence. The posters who pointed out that Brehme bombing forward leaves him vulnerable to a counter attack never said he wasn't 'defending when Gio is in possession'. Of course he is defending, all of antohan's players will be defending when out of possession.

The point is that he is out of position and nowhere near the optimum area of the pitch to defend effectively.

On Bergomi - His job is not impossible Balu, that is complete hyperbole. You've changed the discussion as well, because the whole point we were debating is whether Bergomi tracks Cavani's runs or not - no one has ever said he is defending against two people. Cavani is off, he's vacated the area and Bergomi has the decision to defend against either Cavani (follow the run) or Brehme (stay in position). What I think he would do is in the vast majority of instances track that initial run of Cavani - two things then happen

1 - The ball gets played to Cavani, so Bergkamp picks out the run - Bergomi made the right call and is in the perfect position to snuff it out

2 - No one passes the ball to Cavani and that run breaks down, for arguments sake it gets played to Brehme - Cavani is now central and picked up by Campbell, Bergomi moves the 10 yards back across and gets back in position. Wouldn't take 5 seconds.

 

[Gio]

Sorry, I meant none of the tagged posters will get an alert once you go above five. If you want any feedback from them you'll need to tag five of them again (I think).

Nah it worked, Donaldo's voted.

Poor show Anto.

 

[Thisistheone]

While you are at it you could explain how you so quickly concluded on the outcome here.

I spent your entire game arguing Cutch was lacking the outball for the counter against you, and how your greater control of the game would prevail with your forwards eventually finding a way through.

You seemed to agree back then. Sure, there are differences in personnel, but the issues are largely the same. In fact, Robben provides something out by the touchline which netiher Savicevic nor Suárez did yet I kept banging on you had enough width.

Amazing really.

Relax man, I didn't vote til a good while into the discussion.

I see Gio's back 4 as better than yours. I see Cavani getting stopped. What I initially took time on was the Brehme issue and I agreed eventually with Gio that there is no one better to stop the threat down the left than Bergomi. An absolutely superb defender. And as I replied to you before, Muller isn't on the pitch, so you can't use him as examples of goals you will score here. Robben isn't a goal scorer. Bergkamp isn't a goal scorer. At least not prolific in the sense of a out and out 9. He's a creator.

 

[antohan]

When did TITO vote? I think we exchanged about 80 posts between each other and the score was only 1-1. If that's not enough evidence to take a decision, then there'll never be enough.

He voted around the time you started banging on about counters, which is what I found odd since he of all people should be more wary of jumping on the "acres of space, lightning quick, I'm filling my boots" mantra. It struck me as particularly odd.

Not surprised the way Theon seems to be going on and on about Bergomi. Poor Balu, his brain is going Tito's way.

 

[antohan]

Nah it worked, Donaldo's voted.

Poor show Anto.

Go on, play the poor me card.

Last time I checked Arsenal fans have as much right to vote as anyone else.

You have Campbell too. As said, go alert all Barca fans on the bac of Rivaldo, I'm odds on to get a vote or two there as well.

 

[sullydnl]

I think it's the sixth that doesn't. It would make sense for it to work as a limit, not to rule out all the previous ones. No?

Yeah actually that makes more sense, my mistake.

 

[Gio]

He voted around the time you started banging on about counters, which is what I found odd since he of all people should be more wary of jumping on the "acres of space, lightning quick, I'm filling my boots" mantra. It struck me as particularly odd.

Not surprised the way Theon seems to be going on and on about Bergomi. Poor Balu, his brain is going Tito's way.

It's not about agendas, it's about people calling it as they see it.

 

[Gio]

Go on, play the poor me card.

Last time I checked Arsenal fans have as much right to vote as anyone else.

You have Campbell too. As said, go alert all Barca fans on the bac of Rivaldo, I'm odds on to get a vote or two there as well.

It's a wee bit underhand IMO, but come on you're the grand-master of bitching about the whole world being against you whenever you're not ahead in a draft.

 

[antohan]

Relax man, I didn't vote til a good while into the discussion.

I see Gio's back 4 as better than yours. I see Cavani getting stopped. What I initially took time on was the Brehme issue and I agreed eventually with Gio that there is no one better to stop the threat down the left than Bergomi. An absolutely superb defender. And as I replied to you before, Muller isn't on the pitch, so you can't use him as examples of goals you will score here. Robben isn't a goal scorer. Bergkamp isn't a goal scorer. At least not prolific in the sense of a out and out 9. He's a creator.

Robben has a 1 in 2 record. Bergkamp had a 1 in 2 record. Statistically they are jointly good for one goal.

If Bergomi has Brehme (as you say), and Cavani is dealt with (by Campbell then, I presume), Carboni is on Sagnol (in fact has been taken out by a one-two and they are both onto Kohler now). Who is stopping Bergkamp scoring? And is it not fine lines? Your frontline also was "outnumbered" yet we all assumed you were good for dribbling past a player or two every now and then.

They are different kinds of threats as well across them all. I even have both wingbacks being quite different in how they executed (Sagnol more in tandem, Brehme more of a one man force to be reckoned with).

In any case, how exactly is Gio scoring? Rivaldo moving around in a three man midfield? Him, Vieri, Davids, and López all being left-footed and preferring to attack and shoot from Thuram's territory?

The only credible threat is Michel crossing to Vieri. I can see that. I have a superb leftback who should limit those crosses, a keeper who excelled at intercepting them and Koeman is paired up with Thuram. It's all far too predictable really.

 

[antohan]

It's not about agendas, it's about people calling it as they see it.

I don't think it's agenda, didn't say that. It just struck me as an odd vote to come in for you at a time when the entire argument seemed to be a mirror-image of the arguments in his game.

I do see how people (myself included of course) can get too enamoured with their own sides and personnel to the point of not realising the similarities across both games.

Still shocking to me anyway.

 

[antohan]

It's a wee bit underhand IMO, but come on you're the grand-master of bitching about the whole world being against you whenever you're not ahead in a draft.

My bitching isn't that much about results. It's about the dynamics whereby the more open and detailed you are about how your team operates the more flak you get and the more you are constantly on the defensive. It ends up paying off to not play along with the spirit of it all: discussing tactics and how they would or wouldn't work.

I bitched about the same thing against Stobzilla and I won that by 10+ clear votes iirc.

Anyhow, gotta rush now. Catch you later. Wish you the worst of luck.

 

[Gio]

I don't think it's agenda, didn't say that. It just struck me as an odd vote to come in for you at a time when the entire argument seemed to be a mirror-image of the arguments in his game.

I do see how people (myself included of course) can get too enamoured with their own sides and personnel to the point of not realising the similarities across both games.

Still shocking to me anyway.

Hence why I called you on the way you quite rightly dismissed the idea that possession = control, when control is more about who creates the better chances, and is usually founded upon a solid shape.

 

[Gio]

Sub: Hagi on for Lopez

With Claudio Lopez having run his socks off after being given the freedom of the left flank, on comes Gheorghe Hagi for the final 10 minutes. His technical quality and reliable nerve means he joins the fray at the right time. Excellent on the ball, he'll help to take the sting out of the game, will cause Sagnol problems and feed Christian Vieri with his wondrous left peg. He'll have freedom to switch with Rivaldo as they see fit. As his Romanian team showed in 1994, he is the king of counter-attacking.

@AldoPaine18

 

[antohan]

Hence why I called you on the way you quite rightly dismissed the idea that possession = control, when control is more about who creates the better chances, and is usually founded upon a solid shape.

A solid shape and seamless transition.

When I transition through midfield I have a diamond and two wingbacks to rely on, and you only really have two DMs trying to stop it.

When you transition your four defenders offer nothing whatsoever, your two wingers have a top-tier fullback on them, and it all boils down to a 3 v 3 in the middle where I need to focus on one of them in particular.

I have far more control of the game as a result. I could dick around with you in midfield all game, I just don't because I would get bored myself and ultimately what I want is to move on to the final third and probe your backline until it cracks.

 

[antohan]

Ah... well, feck it, have no time to comment on that, really have to go now.