If Cavani does get shut out by being up against Bergomi, it's Brehme who could turn out to play a massive role in this match. Cavani is Anto's main source of goals since no one else in his side was a real goal scorer.
Redcafe Sheep Draft QF4 - antohan vs Gio
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Sure I could. I think he has a better team. It was close, and Rivaldo swung it. Is that difficult to understand?
How exactly is he out of the game? You really are brilliant and making shit up, aren't you?
It wouldn't take long to suss if we get non peak Robben. Maybe we should also assume half your players are not playing at their peak either, that would make it more even.
If for some reason the rules are broken and I get a non-peak player for some bizarre reason, then obviously Müller would come on pronto.
Kohler is busy covering Carboni. Campbell has his hands full with Cavani (or is he out of the game for other reasons? has he been sent off or something?).
There's nothing questionable about Bergkamp's gig. He played his entire career upfront as a striker or second striker. You could best define him as a 9.5 really, effective in midfield and in the final third. At Arsenal his fellow striker was Henry, not an out and out striker but one who would come into the box from the left, much like Cavani is doing here.
Theon's fair point was that Bergomi will cover Cavani's runs inside. He's shut out and it gives Bergkamp a lot less to work with. Makes his already difficult job even harder.
This maybe gives you and Gio a clearer idea (I put an arrow assuming Ape tracks Bergkamp). Not sure whether Davids is on Bastian as Gio says Robben cutting in would be in Davids territory. As said, I leave you to decide what them two are doing.
As per usual, trying to explain how things would work and what the instructions are for each player is bound to give me far more trouble/stick than the comfortable position of sitting back and saying everything is fine and dandy.
Yes, the Lazy L/R there seem to be utterly free. The fundamental issue is I have the ball. If I lost it here, Gio has no one who can make a pass that would exploit it straight away. I have time to regroup and recover. And even then Cocu would be onto Lazy R before he even receives (if he doesn't intercept it, for starters). If the ball goes to Lazy L then Cocu goes to pick up Lazy C, while Popescu covers Thuram who has come out to intercept/stop him. Koeman is spare in case any get beaten, while keeping an eye out for Lazy R while Brehme gets back.
It's not rocket science and it's not in the least bit precarious. Certainly not as precarious as the position he is in at the other end. Those four men are all he ever actually has attacking me, I can handle it. I would be far more worried about how to stop a side with fullbacks who actually contribute going forward because that gives me more options to transition and to double-up on his defenders.
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If Bergomi is doing a job on Cavani then who is tracking Brehme? I don't buy that Michel will be following Brehme all the way to his own box.
Then Brehme is utterly free with no fullback at all trying to stop him.
Awesome, I'll have a ball here and he'll probably help himself to a goal with one of those rockets of his.
You haven't addressed my questions though. Nor has Gio really.
Bergomi has 756 appearances for Inter, 81 caps for Italy, man-marked Rumenigge at 18 in a World Cup Final, was near flawless at World Cup 1990 and had a career stretching from 1979 to 1999. I daresay he's astute enough to know when to pass Cavani on to Campbell (who himself is more than a match for the Uruguayan).
This maybe gives you and Gio a clearer idea (I put an arrow assuming Ape tracks Bergkamp). Not sure whether Davids is on Bastian as Gio says Robben cutting in would be in Davids territory. As said, I leave you to decide what them two are doing.
As per usual, trying to explain how things would work and what the instructions are for each player is bound to give me far more trouble/stick than the comfortable position of sitting back and saying everything is fine and dandy.
Yes, the Lazy L/R there seem to be utterly free. The fundamental issue is I have the ball. If I lost it here, Gio has no one who can make a pass that would exploit it straight away. I have time to regroup and recover. And even then Cocu would be onto Lazy R before he even receives (if he doesn't intercept it, for starters). If the ball goes to Lazy L then Cocu goes to pick up Lazy C, while Popescu covers Thuram who has come out to intercept/stop him. Koeman is spare in case any get beaten, while keeping an eye out for Lazy R while Brehme gets back.
It's not rocket science and it's not in the least bit precarious. Certainly not as precarious as the position he is in at the other end. Those four men are all he ever actually has attacking me, I can handle it. I would be far more worried about how to stop a side with fullbacks who actually contribute going forward because that gives me more options to transition and to double-up on his defenders.
I still think this is lunacy. It's the same gung-ho tactics that did for you in the last draft. Look how much space my front four have in this picture. It doesn't need Ronald Koeman to find them - Emile Heskey could find them, any professional player could. Hell Andy Goram was great with his feet as well.
Michel can track him. If Brehme gets clear, it's a simple pass on job that happens hundreds of times in every game. Bergomi picks him up, Sol picks up Cavani, Kohler can do Bergkamp or if he drops, can be shut off by Simoene/Davids. Then when the ball is lost, we've got acres to attack.
In fairness that graphic does make you look vulnerable to a counter attack Anto.
Few ways for that to be okay really, for one what Gio said is of course spot on - Bergomi is quite comfortably intelligent enough to know when to track a Cavani run or when to stay on the right and watch Brehme.
You have to remember football is a fluid and changing game so there will be no one approach Bergomi uses for Cavani/Brehme - for example I would probably assume that his first thought will always be Cavani, and he'll initially track that inside run, but if the attack from antohan starts to stutter/slow tempo, then Cavani has already made his off the ball run and is now stood centrally - he'll quite simply get picked up by Campbell and Bergomi will move wider again.
The threat from inside forwards - as Cavani is playing here - is always the run. Track the run, the element of surprise, and it just becomes a normal forward marked by a centre back.
You have to be kidding me.
- Robben and Müller jointly scored 5 of the 7 goals Bayern scored against Barca last year.
- Bergkamp had a one in two record
- Koeman is the greatest goalscoring defender in history, with a 1 in 3 record.
Big games are rarely high scoring affairs and more often than not the super-duper-fapworthy players don't score as they are well looked after. It's the others that show up with an unexpected goal. Given Brehme is completely unattended, that's goal #2 right there.
Muller isn't even on the pitch 
I know it does, I could engage in a lot of shirt matching, place Cocu bang onto Michel, etc. That's not how sides defend though and certainly not how they position themselves when they are the ones who actually have the ball. Once I lose the ball that looks much different very quickly, much quicker than Gio's inability to playmake from deep requires.
This one probably will be. Especially with your gung-ho tactics. We should be at least a couple of goals to the good by now through counter-attacking.
Brilliant, at one end I get stick because I'm exposed to the counter, at the other I'm impotent because the players supposed to be exploiting that opportunity actually track back.
The beauty of not exposing yourself by giving specifics. Just say different things to different audiences, deal with each problem at a time and no one will read up everything and spot it makes no sense on aggregate.
No need to thread a ball through the eye of the needle, just a big lump over the top somewhere up the park would be picked up by any one of my front four. And they're racing down on goal with little resistance.
Really hard this. Gio has a super defence, but i worry a bit about Carboni on Robben who would give any left back a headache on his day. Not convinced about Anto's attacking setup though, personally i'm not a fan of these false 9s (although i did reluctantly try it once in a draft with Messi), and i don't rate Cavani as much as some people. Gio's attacking threat is a bit easier to envisage with Vieri an obvious threat from crosses, and Rivaldo trying to slip in my man Lopez (though Thuram is a major plus for Anto).
I think Robben could sneak a goal here, but i can also imagine Vieri getting one with the supporting cast he's got here. Could easily finish a draw but if it had to sway one way, i'd guess the star man Rivaldo could make the difference.
I think Robben could sneak a goal here, but i can also imagine Vieri getting one with the supporting cast he's got here. Could easily finish a draw but if it had to sway one way, i'd guess the star man Rivaldo could make the difference.
How exactly? You've just said Michel is marking Brehme all the way to the corner flag. That leaves López/Rivaldo/Vieri on Thuram/Koeman/Popescu/Cocu.
Very comfortable, particularly when your defenders aren't good for anything other than a bit of sideways unadventuorus passing.
Make up your mind. Is it three or four? And why exactly would the ball find your players and not mine? Bar Vieri, none will be much use in the air.
Can't be comparing this to the Totti false 9 mate - he's perfect for that role and peaked there in a way Bergkamp never did. I love that tactic. Asked it before because I really don't know - did Bergkamp play as a false 9, as opposed to a second striker behind an Henry, Kluivert?
Ah right, Cocu and Popescu are holding back now. Fair enough it makes a bit more sense rather than just flooding everyone forward trying to penetrate a tight back six, then paying the price on the counter.
Muller isn't on the pitch.
I wouldn't class bergkamp as a real goal scorer. Not prolific anyway. He's a creator.
Koeman did score a great amount but really you don't want to be relying on your centre back for goals. I'm not saying you will be, the point was more about Cavani getting shut out. Which is why I mentioned Brehme potentially having a huge role in this.
I'll use your graphic. All my players would have to do is find anywhere in those red areas. We don't need Riquelme playing sweeper to do that.
Think about Bergkamp and Henry. Was Henry playing as a traditional centreforward? Not really, he played very much in the same way Cavani has been intructed. Bergkamp does his usual and Robben is doing a Pires with more pace and tricks.
Look at this peach from Cavani, that's starting from his exact starting position.
As I said before, when looking for goals you are all ignoring the elephant in the room: Ronald Koeman. He scored almost as many goals as Claudio López and Michel combined. And that's with both also supposedly set piece experts.
It's outrageous, do you guys genuinely think Simeone and Carboni (these in particular) wouldn't be conceding free kicks left, right and centre?
Asked it before because I really don't know - did Bergkamp play as a false 9, as opposed to a second striker behind an Henry, Kluivert?
To be fair TITO (and yourself) came as close as it could get to winning me over.
I don't remember Bergkamp in this role, always remembered him as a 2nd striker but might be wrong.
I never said anything other than Popescu was staying back. I also remarked earlier out of the two CMs it was Bastian in particular who would feel more free to push forward.
Great though, after an entire page of confusing stuff abpout how exposed I am on the counter there is bound to be a few who got their heads turned.
i really think you've hugely overestimated the ability of sagnol and berhme to get forward. brehme was never a type of player to bomb the wing, and sagnol was never dani alves. and these players will also massively struggle to get back to defense 80 yards away because they are simply not superhumans with horse lungs and race car speed like a roberto carlos or cafu would be. you're describing tendencies which wouldn't be realistic for these players, so i simply believe that the scenario you've put up above is not realistic to me.This maybe gives you and Gio a clearer idea (I put an arrow assuming Ape tracks Bergkamp). Not sure whether Davids is on Bastian as Gio says Robben cutting in would be in Davids territory. As said, I leave you to decide what them two are doing.
As per usual, trying to explain how things would work and what the instructions are for each player is bound to give me far more trouble/stick than the comfortable position of sitting back and saying everything is fine and dandy.
Yes, the Lazy L/R there seem to be utterly free. The fundamental issue is I have the ball. If I lost it here, Gio has no one who can make a pass that would exploit it straight away. I have time to regroup and recover. And even then Cocu would be onto Lazy R before he even receives (if he doesn't intercept it, for starters). If the ball goes to Lazy L then Cocu goes to pick up Lazy C, while Popescu covers Thuram who has come out to intercept/stop him. Koeman is spare in case any get beaten, while keeping an eye out for Lazy R while Brehme gets back.
It's not rocket science and it's not in the least bit precarious. Certainly not as precarious as the position he is in at the other end. Those four men are all he ever actually has attacking me, I can handle it. I would be far more worried about how to stop a side with fullbacks who actually contribute going forward because that gives me more options to transition and to double-up on his defenders.
i thought at first glance that it would be better to have a legendary playmaker like hagi in rivaldo's place, and rivaldo at one of the wing positions, but i understand that michel is there to provide crosses to vieri, and gio doesn't have the robben type killers on the wing, so he wants to have a player of ridiculous individual ability that can pretty much present danger any time he's on the ball in the middle attacking space. To me that's totally ok, rivaldo played in that position predominately, and he always drifted about not being bound positionally anyways, simply finding spaces to attack. As well with claudio lopez's speed on the left, it's always a danger especially with the marking right back up front pretending he's a winger. Rivaldo was definitely not a shabby passer.
i also think you're wrong to say michel is lazy, he's nothing exceptional in his workrate, but nothing exceptionally detrimental either. he was a winger with great stamina and at least the ability to track back.
lastly i think koeman popescu is really undesirable. two sweeper type players that preferred having the ball over defending, and you have two of them as your last 3 defenders in what is basically a 3-5-2 pretending to be a 4-1-2-1-2. koeman was never a great defender, but he was great to put at the back line as a ball playing defender that could roam forward, depending on his solid partner to anchor. you got that in thuram luckily, but popescu and koeman, i don't see the point. both popescu and koeman are pretty slow, and koeman was never a really great tackler, and popescu wasn't a primary playmaker, he depended on guardiola to playmake, for whom he played the more defensive role like amor did. you got schweinsteiger and cocu, two terrific two way players that have box to box ability almost unparalled, but no playmaker. you depend on massive movement by schweinsteiger and cocu, that i think simeone and davids will more then match them. simeone especially will probably dominate schweinsteiger indvidually in my view, the man was an animal defensively and physically. Davids will do fine against cocu as well. neither davids or simeone are neanderthals technically either, they could very much play, make difficult touches and make neat passes, they weren't hagi's or maradonas, but they were quite decent.
is there a massive advantage to your team? i don't think so. i think you've bent a couple descriptions of players habits to your advantage. i think gio has a more structured defensive phase, more structured offensive tactic, and a better defence by quite a bit. i was comfortable in voting for gio.
Well Cavani's capable - and I do rate him - but it's one thing turning over Gilles Cioni, another entirely Guiseppe Bergomi.
I'll use your graphic. All my players would have to do is find anywhere in those red areas. We don't need Riquelme playing sweeper to do that.
So let's say Kohler nicks the ball from Robben. He is inside the box, under pressure and more concerned about getting it OUT.
- Will he find Michel? No chance he will kick that way, and Cocu (who's already backpedalling) would intercept.
- Will he find Rivaldo? Either Cocu or Popescu are more likely to intercept (you see, the ball may travel fast, but you can see it coming so can adjust yourself to what the pass is presenting as possible danger)
- Will he find López? Thuram is already on the case for the long pass (in fact, he is probably too tucked in for starters) and Sagnol recovering so the best you can do is get it around midfield with López coming short.
- Will he find Bobo? Yeah, right, he may as well go for goal Jurgen.
The fact is a right footed CB that just got the ball of Robben in that quadrant will likely have kicked it out for a corner in the process, balooned it out of the pitch for safety or, more likely, will pass it to Carboni as the safe option seeing as Sagnol is racing back. Carboni receives and either comes back to Kohler, or tries to find Davids, or tries any of the options above with me already much closer to regrouping.
Nothing on. The entire point of a Koeman or a Hierro is speeding that up. You have two stoppers and two fullbacks best known fot their defensive game. The transition is broken.
Then he sticks it out for a throw-in. If there's enough space, he can hook it up the park with his left. Piojo has acres to be found in.
I think this is a fair assessment and re-affirms some of the points I was making earlier about shape, Koeman, Popescu and the flanks.
So only Bobby Carlos and Cafú can play as wingbacks. Anyone else who ever played wingback was a fraud.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I never said that.
I acknowledged earlier I thought he would be the only one likely to engage in any defending but Gio had been adamant he was keeping him out wide ready to exploit the space behind Brehme.
You are right, he is not lazy, the point was he was one of three being asked to do feck all defensively (at times, other times they are tracking back and defending as 9 men, it all depends on whether I have the ball or he has just got it back).
At the tail-end of his career he even got accommodated into a wingback role of sorts. I've no problem being fair to him, it was just him being painted as someone utterly free upfront and some ridiculous stats that got brought up.
I'm not going to bother with this. You too seem under the illusion that being good on the ball means you are a sweeper and being limited means you are a stopper.
Koeman was a stopper. If you think about it, every one of his weaknesses points out that he is no sweeper. He didn't roam forward much, he far preferred to dictate and pass from deep, which was the fundamental difference between him and Popescu (who preferred ball carrying and more of a libero role). That's why Popescu ultimately didn't work as the Koeman replacement and actually ended up playing primarily as a midfielder.
I could see the point in that discussion in the previous game, but Popescu is playing as a DM here, not sweeper. He is primarily concerned with coming out and closing down Rivaldo in the hole and anchoring the midfield. As you point out, Koeman has the right partner in Thuram. No need to overcomplicate thinking about Koeman and Popescu.
Wait, what? I get through all that stick for playing Koeman but I have no playmaking? Seriously? Cocu isn't going box-to-box either. I like box-to-box Cocu, but that's not the one playing here.
The problem is if Simeone is on Schweini and Davids on Cocu, who is then onto the two wingbacks... Oh, I see, you don't think they can. And Koeman and Popescu can't playmake... And Bergkamp is probably being picked up by... dunno really, don't think Kohler/Campbell would come out into midfield to pick someone up like that.
But yeah, if you assume Bergkamp is taken care of despite no one on him, none of my players can playmake, and my wingbacks can't get forward, then yes, Davids and Simeone are doing an awesome job on Scweini and Cocu.
Never said they were that limited. Just don't think they are anything anywhere near as worrying as Rivaldo, which is why I said the midfield three would jointly work on that. It's obviously not all three man-marking Rivaldo but he is the focal point for their joint efforts. Reasonable?
Thuram, Popescu, Schweinsteiger and Sagnol can all close down and intercept wherever in those acres the ball is hoofed up to.
The ball doesn't magically appear at López' feet the moment you get it back. You know that.
Oh, I'm not saying they are an easy defence to get past. Never did. I said from the outset this was a 2-1 game.
So Michel is indeed running all the way back to the corner flag tracking Brehme, or else he is either free or has a 2v1 on Bergomi.
Funny, apparently a World Cup winning wingback wouldn't have the engine to do this but a typical winger would. And he would have the engine to get back upfront ahead of Brehme AND provide all those crosses.
Go figure.
Anyway, fed up of talking to Gio (who obviously won't agree) and a few token brickwalls.
As usual, there's absolutely no one out there willing to venture anything positive about my team.
Boring.
Over to you guys, enjoy the silence.
As usual, there's absolutely no one out there willing to venture anything positive about my team.
Boring.
Over to you guys, enjoy the silence.
I'm happy with Michel tracking Brehme. Should Brehme get away from him, we can pass players on and have cover as previously stated. But equally if Brehme is away from him, then Michel has fantastic counter-attacking space to hit.
Fundamentally though Michel doesn't need to beat Brehme to deliver a telling cross into the box. He's capable of doing that whether Brehme is back or not.
Not really. In that graphic you've completely over-committed - Sagnol's 70 yards away, Schweiny 25. None of those players will live with Piojo Lopez in a footrace. It's an easy out-ball for whoever recovers possession and is bound to be the vehicle for a goal or two.