RedCafe Sheep Draft - Jayvin vs Thisistheone

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?

  • Total voters
    36
  • Poll closed .
Jayvin said:
Pretty much. With two up top at all times keeping Montero/Ferrara occupied, and TITO's sole defensive presence in midfield dealing with Boban, my midfielders can continually create 3v2 situations against TITO's defence. Unless Pessotto/Di Livio tuck in to help, which leaves Evra/Neville free to bomb forward.
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Aye, I think that's really where it could be won or lost. I would expect those two to have largely defensive duties and particularly needing to tuck in to cover/beef up through the middle, leaving your fullbacks free to have a go behind their backs.

Mourinho said:
It's like having a blanket that is too small for the bed. You pull the blanket up to keep your chest warm and your feet stick out.
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Jayvin said:
You don't remember Seedorf destroying Man Utd in the CL? Personally I prefer Scholes but it's a close run thing, I'm sure if you asked many neutrals they would rate Seedorf just as high, if not higher. I never compared Deco and Baraja, different kinds of players. I rate Boban higher than Deco though.
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I remember Milan as a group teaching us a lesson, at the San Siro, with most of our first choice defenders out injured.

I'm not trying to take away from Seedorf, just offering a bit of context.
 
Theon said:
Except it isn't a midfield of Scholes and Deco? Looks to me like its a midfield three with De Rossi/Scholes/Deco - there is nothing at all wrong with that.
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You don't see Deco and Scholes getting in each others way? If Xavi couldn't perform to the best of his abilities alongside Deco, who's to say Scholes could?

Even if TITO's midfielders are indivually better (they're not), they are still outnumbered, outfought physically and provide less options in both attack and defence than mine do.
 
Strange that TITO was having a go at my defence being a 'mishmash' (paraphrasing), when they compliment each other perfectly; the reading of the game and passing ability of Hierro and the pace and power of Thuram. If anything is a mishmash, it is TITOs midfield.
 
Jayvin said:
Strange that TITO was having a go at my defence being a 'mishmash' (paraphrasing), when they compliment each other perfectly; the reading of the game and passing ability of Hierro and the pace and power of Thuram. If anything is a mishmash, it is TITOs midfield.
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Your defence is a mixed bag compared to my real life defence, i meant. Which you can't argue with. You have big names, individually, but a back 5 works as a unit, not individually. Therefore my back 5 has an advantage, they've played 100's of games together at the highest level.

And you really think my side lacks work rate? Suarez? Deco? De Rossi? Di Livio?

I can see Savicevic and Suarez having a lot of joy here. Not to mention Totti.
 
De Rossi will get murdered, one of the most over-rated players on the caf.

Jayvin to take this easily as he will have complete control, even with Scholes there as he would clash with Deco and De Rossi will be chasing shadows.
 
Thisistheone said:
This is so wrong imo.

Scholes and Seedorf similar? Deco and Baraja similar? Not a chance.

Sorry but you have nothing in your midfield that matches a Paul Scholes.
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You are right on Scholes, absolutely. All those midfielders out there are quality though. The key is what sort of quality and his setup is indeed more balanced for attacking and defensive phases.

The problem actually is Scholes and Deco being similar. It somewhat reminds me of when Theon had that beauty of a diamond with de Rossi and Gattuso protecting Pirlo, yet insisted on fitting Xavi and Iniesta in there somehow. It's not about adding up the best players but getting the right blend across them.

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That may be a bit extreme because in possession I think you'll work out pretty well, it's when you lose it where I can't see Di Livio in particular not being dragged in to support... which leaves Evra free to run behind him. Tricky.
 
antohan said:
fecking hell man, just chuck him in there where De Rossi is and promote De Rossi to play alongside Scholes. Sorted.
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Yeah looks like I might have to now. Really think Deco was an excellent CM though and is getting a hard time here.

Will keep an eye on this issue, closely.
 
I don't think enough is being made of the fact I have an extra man in midfield. One of Seedorf/Baraja/Boban is always going to be COMPLETELY unmarked, and if they aren't then that means there is space in behind that can be exploited. What does TITOs side do when Baraja is running at them? Does De Rossi come out to stop him, leaving Boban all alone? Or does the glacially slow Pessotto come out to stop him leaving a gaping hole at leftback?
 
Thisistheone said:
Your defence is a mixed bag compared to my real life defence, i meant. Which you can't argue with. You have big names, individually, but a back 5 works as a unit, not individually. Therefore my back 5 has an advantage, they've played 100's of games together at the highest level.

And you really think my side lacks work rate? Suarez? Deco? De Rossi? Di Livio?

I can see Savicevic and Suarez having a lot of joy here. Not to mention Totti.
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Is this right though? Did Di Livio not usually play on the wing? I was thinking Mark Iuliano and Moreno Torricelli usually featured in that defence which was often a back 5 iirc
 
Jayvin said:
You don't see Deco and Scholes getting in each others way? If Xavi couldn't perform to the best of his abilities alongside Deco, who's to say Scholes could?
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Honestly not at all, but it was the second part of my post which was the main point there - Deco not being this number 10 playmaker that he is sometimes portrayed as. So it was more about the defensive aspect of the midfield rather than how it works offensively.

But yeah, offensively I don't see any problems with those two linking up. I think if it was Xavi/Scholes you could question the logic of it but Deco is such a different player that you don't have that problem IMO. When Deco was at Barcelona it was a much quicker style of football in a side with Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Henry and the role of Deco wasn't to tika takka it around in the way Xavi would for instance. It was a much quicker style of play that Scholes could fit right in to - that being said, I don't even think Scholes would struggle to fit in with Xavi, thought that would be much more debatable.

The potential issue of that midfield isn't offensive, it is of course defensive where the question marks arise. I think those have been slightly overplayed (particularly with Deco who really was a hardworking, capable midfielder off the ball) but even though it isn't defensively weak, its clearly not rock solid.
 
Thisistheone said:
Yeah looks like I might have to now. Really think Deco was an excellent CM though and is getting a hard time here.
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I assume you mean at Barca, with van Bommel and Edmilson. At Porto he was in the hole and had Costinha, Maniche and Pedro Mendes behind him.

One thing in common about all his partners, none where even remotely similar to Paul Scholes (and likewise with Scholesy paired with Deco).
 
Thisistheone said:
I can see Savicevic and Suarez having a lot of joy here. Not to mention Totti.
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I can't see them having much joy at all, to be honest. With Totti marshalled by Deschamps and Hierro and Thuram covering Suarez/Savicevic, you really need your fullbacks to push forward to overload my defence, but they can't because that will leave gaping holes on the flanks which will easily be exploited by one of my COMPLETELY UNMARKED midfielders.
 
antohan said:
fecking hell man, just chuck him in there where De Rossi is and promote De Rossi to play alongside Scholes. Sorted.
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well he can't lose my vote anyways :p
i had already voted against him :D
 
As I said in the introduction, my team is completely balanced, just the right blend of physical strength, tactical nous and attacking threat. TITO has several players out of position or with less than ideal partners.

Scholes and Deco - debatable and probably would work to an extent, but certainly not ideal
Suarez - less than ideal position
Di Livio - less than ideal position
 
First time I saw Javin's, I thought "well, what a superb team. Almost impossible to top this one out". Then see TITO's, wow, that midfield and attack are mind-blowingly excellent. Deco and Scholes are two of the most hard-workers cm/playmakers I've ever known; so I don't think that midfield would be easily run out. That's if the other team can get the ball from TITO's first.

But it's all preference, though. Shearer and Ibra at their peak can score in any moment. And Boban is one of my fave player.
 
Cutch said:
Is this right though? Did Di Livio not usually play on the wing? I was thinking Mark Iuliano and Moreno Torricelli usually featured in that defence which was often a back 5 iirc
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Aye, you are right, I alluded to this earlier. That said, there's no denying they did train and play together for about half a decade so, deployed in a back four, the understanding between them and awareness of strengths/weaknesses should be very good. E.g. both CBs will know full well when di Livio/Pessotto are likely to run into trouble and can therefore anticipate the danger, bark something at de Rossi, etc. Likewise Peruzzi with both CBs.

It's not the experience of 100s of games, agreed, but there's added value there.
 
antohan said:
fecking hell man, just chuck him in there where De Rossi is and promote De Rossi to play alongside Scholes. Sorted.
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I actually think this is TITOs best lineup, with Mascherano in for Deco he becomes incredibly reliant on Scholes, who will have Baraja shadowing him and giving him no time or space. His best attacking threat from midfield then becomes the forward runs of De Rossi...

Savicevic and Suarez are great names but they need support on the flanks because they will be cutting in all the time (they are NOT wingers and are BOTH on their 'wrong' side), support which cannot be reliably delivered because it will leave TITO exposed at the back.
 
Cutch said:
Yeah Mascherano should really be getting a game here, there are very few better ballwinners than him. Havin said that, he's probably another that would be underrated given who he has played for.
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I definitely wouldn't sub off Deco for Mascherano, I can see the logic of it but in truth its an unnecessary move as far as I'm concerned and the team would lose more for that substitution that it would gain - i.e the linking up in possession and foundation for attacks vs a bit more defensive robustness. It's just a negative substitution I think.

Mascherano for De Rossi would be a more likely change I think - Not sure I would do it, but I rate De Rossi higher than most. There is no doubt though that Mascherano is the better ball winner - he really is unmatched at that when playing in midfield - with De Rossi being the better ball player.

If you wanted to toughen up the midfield that might be a fair move. There is no doubt Jayvin has physicality there.
 
Jayvin said:
As I said in the introduction, my team is completely balanced, just the right blend of physical strength, tactical nous and attacking threat. TITO has several players out of position or with less than ideal partners.

Scholes and Deco - debatable and probably would work to an extent, but certainly not ideal
Suarez - less than ideal position
Di Livio - less than ideal position
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I'd disagree with those two. Suárez is absolutely fine there. In fact, that's my preferred position and setup for him. Di Livio, given the central midfield problem you point out is actually ideal as the fullback. I'd rather di Livio the wingback/right midfielder than a regular fullback. If you had a quality winger then he would be less than ideal but in this setup he is a bonus.
 
Jayvin said:
I actually think this is TITOs best lineup, with Mascherano in for Deco he becomes incredibly reliant on Scholes, who will have Baraja shadowing him and giving him no time or space.
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Agreed. Plus Seedorf himself has the physicality to cause problem for Scholes and when Totti pushes up on the centre backs Deschamps would be free to pressurise. I think you're right there, without Deco it becomes easier to defend against.
 
Isotope said:
First time I saw Javin's, I thought "well, what a superb team. Almost impossible to top this one out". Then see TITO's, wow, that midfield and attack are mind-blowingly excellent. Deco and Scholes are two of the most hard-workers cm/playmakers I've ever known; so I don't think that midfield would be easily run out. That's if the other team can get the ball from TITO's first.

But it's all preference, though. Shearer and Ibra at their peak can score in any moment. And Boban is one of my fave player.
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His midfield is outnumbered and physically weak compared to mine, Boban was just as disciplined and worked as hard as Deco/Scholes, but he also has the support of 2 defensively excellent players in Deschamps and Baraja, not to mention the beast that is Seedorf. Even if my team cedes possession to TITO, it is perfectly set up to devastate him on the counter with the pace and power of Baraja, the craft and vision of Boban and tireless runs of Neville and Evra.
 
I actually think this could boil down to the fact I'm getting the best out of my main player, Totti.

While Jay's best player ....Zlatan? Is not being used correctly.

I've built a side that gives Totti the ultimate platform that he's never really had in real life.
 
Jayvin said:
I actually think this is TITOs best lineup, with Mascherano in for Deco he becomes incredibly reliant on Scholes, who will have Baraja shadowing him and giving him no time or space.
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Better, dedicated, purely defensive DMs have been deployed to "stop Scholes" and failed miserably.
 
Jayvin said:
As I said in the introduction, my team is completely balanced, just the right blend of physical strength, tactical nous and attacking threat.
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Just letting you know that I'm not going to vote Jayvin because I've helped TITO with his side and have a vested interest, so it wouldn't be fair.

As it were though I think you've done a very good job pulling off a tough formation. The midfield lacks the pure regista of a Pirlo but with Deschamps there its much more solid - it really would be tough to break down. Seedorf was a coup in the last stage as well and fits the role perfectly, at Milan he's played at both the tip and the sides of the diamond so has compete familiarity with the role.

IMO the one issue with your team is the forwards, I do think they are too similar in the sense that both are real central strikers and neither has the pure movement or fluidity of someone like Schevchenko (or Suarez in truth, he would be great with Ibra in a diamond).
 
Theon said:
Agreed. Plus Seedorf himself has the physicality to cause problem for Scholes and when Totti pushes up on the centre backs Deschamps would be free to pressurise. I think you're right there, without Deco it becomes easier to defend against.
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I actually had a whole bunch of crap written in Notepad about how easy it would be to defend against if he played De Rossi-Mascherano-Scholes. To be honest though, a lot of it still applies. I have a players able to cover ALL of his attacking threats while still having a man free in midfield and leaving no gaps at the back. Conversely, my team will ALWAYS have a midfielder unmarked and because they are all such adept passers of the ball, it spells trouble for TITO
 
Theon said:
IMO the one issue with your team is the forwards, I do think they are too similar in the sense that both are real central strikers and neither has the pure movement or fluidity of someone like Schevchenko (or Suarez in truth, he would be great with Ibra in a diamond).
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They will occupy both TITOs CBs though, and with a man unmarked in midfield at ALL TIMES (really can't stress this enough, one of Boban/Seedorf/Baraja are free to do whatever they please) it means there will be lots of 3v2 opportunities against TITOs defence.
 
antohan said:
I couldn't tell as I have him on ignore, but out of the few times I put an override on it I noticed he seemed to know who you had picked before it was announced to everyone.
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I've asked him for advice from time to time. Does that count as an assistant cos there is also another poster i went to for advice during the draft.

I built the side, but it doesn't matter anyway, Theon isn't going to vote. Which is fair.
 
Jayvin said:
His midfield is outnumbered and physically weak compared to mine, Boban was just as disciplined and worked as hard as Deco/Scholes, but he also has the support of 2 defensively excellent players in Deschamps and Baraja, not to mention the beast that is Seedorf. Even if my team cedes possession to TITO, it is perfectly set up to devastate him on the counter with the pace and power of Baraja, the craft and vision of Boban and tireless runs of Neville and Evra.
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Yes, agreed with all that. Like said before, I think you have a superb team, but then I'd want to watch TITO's if given the choice. Hard to say who would win in actual match, though.
 
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