Redcafe Sheep Draft Final - Gio vs Thisistheone

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
Gio said:
I'm comfortable with that change. Bergomi will track Stoichkov - he's attacking the very space Bergomi excels in. On the other side, Brehme and Kohler will be comfortable dealing with Savicevic. Still not seeing a way through for TITO.
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Nah that is nonsense Gio - As I said before there really is no chance it being a 2 vs 1 with Kohler and Brehme against Stoichkov. What do you think Cafu is doing?

You're talking about the best attacking fullback in the draft as if he'll have no impact - its absurd. You may as well play any old solid right back if we're gonna completely ignore their offensive impact. Cafu will bomb forward on that right and drag Brehme away, if the German doesn't go then its a simple pass to Cafu all day long and if you give him that space he'll punish you - he did it for Roma, Milan and Brazil his entire career.

Kohler is on Savicevic when he cuts in - no two ways about that. And as highly as I rate the German he'll be dribbled past a few times here. Savicevic is a far better dribbler than someone like Romario who is apparently giving Ciro Ferrara the run around so to say that Kohler will comfortable is way OTT.

I think Totti is the one who benefits here though - The game is getting stretched and with Kohler getting pulled out by Savicevic its just increasing the space for Totti to curl one into the far corner past Andy Goram. Totti's goal threat has been underrated throughout this game - he scored over 30 goals in 2007 from this false 9 position.

Arsene Wenger said it best - "He used to play in behind the strikers and then one day they had no central striker so they played him up front and won game after game. He suddenly became the topscorer in Italy as a central striker."

Hell, even last night at 37 years of age he's still banging them in

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Theon said:
Nah that is nonsense Gio - As I said before there really is no chance it being a 2 vs 1 with Kohler and Brehme against Stoichkov. What do you think Cafu is doing?

You're talking about the best attacking fullback in the draft as if he'll have no impact - its absurd. You may as well play any old solid right back if we're gonna completely ignore their offensive impact. Cafu will bomb forward on that right and drag Brehme away, if the German doesn't go then its a simple pass to Cafu all day long and if you give him that space he'll punish you - he did it for Roma, Milan and Brazil his entire career.
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Cafu's got his hands full dealing with Hagi.
 
Cafu is not out of the game attacking wise because of Hagi.

Cafu, possibly the greatest attacking right back in history
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It's a bit harsh on my players though that Romario alone is seen to have more goals in him than Totti, Stoichkov, Suarez & Scholes combined.

Again, with the midfield battle being won by our side - this needs to be taken into account - we are likely to be getting more chances and better chances with the number of goals in the side, the flexibility of the attack and the numerous sources of danger in the side - The full backs, midfield, and all everywhere up top.
 
Well if your main attacking threat is a full-back who averaged one goal a season, I'll take that. I've not touched upon the role that Andreas Brehme could play in the opposition half, a player who scored and assisted heavily. With his 3 goals in World Cup Semi-Finals and Finals, I'd wager he could have a more telling attacking impact on a big game like this one.
 
I think Cafu's great, one of the top three or so of his generation and a strong full-back in any era. But let's not paint him as superhuman. Although he offered plenty up and down the line, he wasn't as defensively reliable as Thuram or Zanetti. He was very close to not going to the 2002 World Cup at all, Big Phil Scolari wanted a right-back "who could defend" and Cafu's performances were suggesting he wasn't able to do that. That's part of the reason Brazil played a 3-5-2 in 2002, to accommodate the attacking strengths of their wing-backs while compensating for their defensive weakness. Seems crazy in hindsight, given the reputation he holds today, but he's not flawless and can be got at by as potent a player as Gheorge Hagi (as well as a drifting Rivaldo).
 
Paul Scholes wants to have one last say in this:

I'll bow out with a Paul Scholes tribute and leave the rest to the voters!

The Shy Genius

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Patrick Viera
"The player in the Premiership I admire most? Easy – Scholes"
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Dennis Bergkamp
"He is the master"
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Ediur Gudjohnsen
"I'm more of an admirer of Paul Scholes than I am of Ronaldo. Scholes is one of the most complete footballers I've ever seen. His one-touch play is phenomenal. Whenever I have played against him I never felt I could get close to him.
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Ferguson
"Scholes was probably the best English midfielder since Bobby Charlton.

He was such a brilliant long passer that he could choose a hair on the head of any team-mate answering the call of nature at our training ground. Gary Neville once thought he had found refuge in a bush, but Scholesy found him from 40 yeards. He inflicted a similar long-range missile strike, once, on Peter Schmeichel, and was chased round the training ground for his impertinence. Scholesy would have made a first class-sniper."
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Socrates
“Good enough to play for Brazil. I love to watch Scholes, to see him pass, the boy with the red hair and the red shirt.”
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Marcelo Lippi
"Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team – that goes to show how highly I have always rated him. An all-round midfielder who possesses quality and character in abundance."
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Edgar Davids
"I’m not the best, Paul Scholes is."
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Zinedine Zidane
"My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder. Scholes is undoubtedly the greatest midfielder of his generation."
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Thierry Henry
"United always had many amazing players, but whenever we faced them we were always, always, always scared of what Paul Scholes could do. Ask anyone from that old Arsenal team, they will tell you the same. If you let him play, he can kill you, and for me he was so underrated. The way he plays: one touch, arriving late into the box, the way he strikes the ball, his vision, his passing. Incredible."
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Lionel Messi
“At La Masia (Barcelona’s Academy) his name was mentioned a lot. He’s a teacher.”
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Pep Guardiola
“Out of everyone at Manchester United, I would pick out Scholes – he is the best midfielder of his generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him.”
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That Guardiola quote is really something, considering he's worked with Xavi & Iniesta
 
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Gio said:
Well if your main attacking threat is a full-back who averaged one goal a season, I'll take that.
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There we go again with the silliness - TITO has made no comments like this about your players Gio.

Totti is the second highest goalscorer in Serie A history, second only to someone who played in the 1930's.

He has scored more goals than Baggio, Del Piero, Batistuta, Vieri, Riva and pure poachers like Inzaghi - yet apparently he isn't a goal threat here?!

This is all despite playing the majority of his career as a number 10 - he was the one assisting the likes of Batistuta at Roma! Yet he still has scored all these goals.

Totti is a huge threat.
 
Theon said:
There we go again with the silliness - TITO has made no comments like this about your players Gio.
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It's contextualising the claim that "Cafu is possibly the greatest attacking right back in history." Nothing silly, no opinion, just facts.
 
Theon said:
There we go again with the silliness - TITO has made no comments like this about your players Gio.

Totti is the second highest goalscorer in Serie A history, second only to someone who played in the 1930's.

He has scored more goals than Baggio, Del Piero, Batistuta, Vieri, Riva and pure poachers like Inzaghi - yet apparently he isn't a goal threat here?!

This is all despite playing the majority of his career as a number 10 - he was the one assisting the likes of Batistuta at Roma! Yet he still has scored all these goals.

Totti is a huge threat.
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Again it's context. He's had a longer Serie A career than the likes of Batistuta, Del Piero, Baggio, Vieri, Van Basten, etc. Did he not start back in 1992 or something?! He was and still is a fantastic player, but one who is well marshalled here by Marcel Desailly, and one who is clearly a level below the great Romario up the other end.
 
Think more needs to be made of the biggest mis match on the pitch in Simeone having to deal with Redondo or Scholesy.

In such a tight game, that can be enough to swing it in our favour.
 
I think that's unfair on Diego Simeone who has 106 caps for Argentina, many of them as captain, and was recently voted into Atletico Madrid's greatest all-time team for his one-man engine-room title-winning performances in 1996. He also excelled for Inter and Lazio doing all the dirty work for the likes of Veron. I would also say that Scholes is of course a superior footballer, but Simeone's brilliant at running midfields through endless graft, box-to-box industry and all-round qualities (he's not just got defensive attributes). Moreover, Simeone's midfield got the better of Scholes' midfield at World Cup 1998 and, although it's quite controversial on this forum, even in the Man Utd - Inter clashes of the 1998/99 treble-winning season (even accounting for Scholes' goal in that tie).
 
It's the draft final though, we have to "pick" at players. It might seem harsh but Simeone is the weakest midfielder here, such is the calibre on display.
 
Simeone is comfortably the worst midfielder on the pitch, it isn't close.
 
Theon said:
Simeone is comfortably the worst midfielder on the pitch, it isn't close.
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He's doing the same job that Makelele, a far more technically limited player, is doing in your team. I'd happily take Simeone over Makelele in any case because he can do the defensive dirty work and contribute going forward.
 
The biggest mismatch on the park remains Romario up against Ferrara and Montero. And that's a decisive mismatch that will result in goals.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I still feel that Gio should have taken Sammer. He would have been perfect following Totti all through the lines, but his choice is quite understandable too!
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I thought that in the beginning as well, especially when he started Desailly in midfield. Sammer and Kohler as centerbacks seemed a great solution against a false 9 as well. But the more I thought about it, the more I prefer Desailly here. He's more comfortable as a centerback and equally great in following Totti around. With Davids and Simeone, you really don't need Sammer making runs, don't think the better distribution is that important either.

Desailly was the perfect pick to improve the team, imo. Maldini would have been a great pick as well, because it was obvious that Tito wanted him.
 
Gio said:
He's doing the same job that Makelele, a far more technically limited player, is doing in your team. I'd happily take Simeone over Makelele in any case because he can do the defensive dirty work and contribute going forward.
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He's just an inferior Makelele. Without a doubt the worst midfielder on the pitch.

The difference is that TITO has Scholes and Redondo in midfield, spraying passes and dictating the game. A destroyer like Makelele compliments that, he's just focused on shutting out Rivaldo and then giving it to Scholes and Redondo to run things.

Simeone is not as good as Makelele defensively - and he's not much cop in possession. Unlike TITO you really don't have a Scholes or Redondo playing passes through midfield and it will cause issues in transition from defence to attack.
 
Gio said:
Well Makelele's record against Rivaldo isn't that great in fact if we look at 1999/2000 and 2000/2001:
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But you're leaving out his best year, 1998-99.

In September 1998, Makélélé put in a world class performance against Barcelona, when he was at Celta. Rivaldo was marked out and was ineffectual for the entire match. Figo and Kluivert bailed out Barcelona in that 2:2 draw

The goal he scored in 2000 against Celta was what, in the 94th minute? He came on in the 60th minute as a sub, not to mention that was during the time when he was pressuring LvG to play him as a CF, which is where he played then, not as a #10 like you have him.

Makélélé wasn't bad in the match of October 2000 either, he wasn't fully fit, so substituting him wasn't a bad thing...look at the first 10 matches of 2000-01, he only played like 2 full matches. Simao and Xavi were the best on the pitch, IMO, the video doesn't work for me so I assume it's just highlights

funnily enough in the 2nd match of 2000-01, Makélélé was seen as our best player even though Rivaldo scored 2 goals, which certainly suggests he wasn't a poor performer.

In November 2001, Makélélé has his best performance in a clásico, Rivaldo is again ineffectual.

And in March 2002, Makélélé plays very well again, Rivaldo puts in a "regular" game.

So no, I don't think Rivaldo would simply get the better of Makélélé, if you try to justify it based on how they played against each other from 1998-2002.
 
Gio said:
The biggest mismatch on the park remains Romario up against Ferrara and Montero. And that's a decisive mismatch that will result in goals.
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It isn't at all :lol:

They were the best defence in Europe and Ferrara in particular was the best defender in Italy during the late 90's. They reached three Champions League Finals in a row and dominated Serie A. It's a proven partnership at the highest level, the absolute highest.

The biggest mismatch is that midfield - Redondo and Scholes will run the show.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I still feel that Gio should have taken Sammer. He would have been perfect following Totti all through the lines, but his choice is quite understandable too!
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Totti is certainly having an impact on this game. Not only what he does himself but the way he lifts those around him.

Just last night:

Roma coach Rudi Garcia has hailed the "illuminating" performance of Francesco Totti after his match-winning return against Udinese.
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But it's a prime Totti we have here. The man who would have one a couple of Balon D'or's had he left Roma, accoring to some of Calcio's finest managers.


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Gio said:
Again it's context. He's had a longer Serie A career than the likes of Batistuta, Del Piero, Baggio, Vieri, Van Basten, etc. Did he not start back in 1992 or something?! He was and still is a fantastic player, but one who is well marshalled here by Marcel Desailly, and one who is clearly a level below the great Romario up the other end.
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But he wasn't a striker for the majority of his career - that is the point. He was a number 10/attacking midfielder and his role was to play in strikers like the ones you mention. It was only later when he moved forward and starting goalscoring himself.

When Batistuta went to Roma and scored 20 goals in 28 games who was assisting him as a number 10? It was Totti, at the tip of the midfield behind two strikers - voted the best player in Italy and the 5th best in Europe.

This is Totti for much of his career

 
Pippa said:
But you're leaving out his best year, 1998-99.

In September 1998, Makélélé put in a world class performance against Barcelona, when he was at Celta. Rivaldo was marked out and was ineffectual for the entire match. Figo and Kluivert bailed out Barcelona in that 2:2 draw

The goal he scored in 2000 against Celta was what, in the 94th minute? He came on in the 60th minute as a sub, not to mention that was during the time when he was pressuring LvG to play him as a CF, which is where he played then, not as a #10 like you have him.

Makélélé wasn't bad in the match of October 2000 either, he wasn't fully fit, so substituting him wasn't a bad thing...look at the first 10 matches of 2000-01, he only played like 2 full matches. Simao and Xavi were the best on the pitch, IMO, the video doesn't work for me so I assume it's just highlights

funnily enough in the 2nd match of 2000-01, Makélélé was seen as our best player even though Rivaldo scored 2 goals, which certainly suggests he wasn't a poor performer.

In November 2001, Makélélé has his best performance in a clásico, Rivaldo is again ineffectual.

And in March 2002, Makélélé plays very well again, Rivaldo puts in a "regular" game.

So no, I don't think Rivaldo would simply get the better of Makélélé, if you try to justify it based on how they played against each other from 1998-2002.
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I remember most of those games. Rivaldo generally got the better of Makelele. The games I listed in the previous post were evidence enough of that. I didn't look at 2001/02 because Rivaldo struggled with injuries most of that season before getting fit in time for the World Cup.
 
Theon said:
But he wasn't a striker for the majority of his career - that is the point. He was a number 10/attacking midfielder and his role was to play in strikers like the ones you mention. It was only later when he moved forward and starting goalscoring himself.

When Batistuta went to Roma and scored 20 goals in 28 games who was assisting him as a number 10? It was Totti, at the tip of the midfield behind two strikers - voted the best player in Italy and the 5th best in Europe.
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Look I love Totti and think he's been under-rated on these shores. But he's up against Marcel Desailly here, a man-mountain of a defender who is equally comfortable tracking Totti into the hole. He excels in both positions - it's a bad match-up for Totti. And Desailly was nothing short of immense, one of the greatest of all time.

Paolo Maldini: "He is without doubt the greatest foreign defender ever to have played in calcio".

Michael Owen: "Desailly was virtually impossible to play against. He was strong, quick, and good on the ball."

Brian Laudrup: "Definitely the hardest player to come up against – it was nearly impossible to get past him [...]"
 
Gio said:
Look I love Totti and think he's been under-rated on these shores.
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:lol: Good!

To be honest I'm not too fussed about the result - the aim of this from the first pick was to do Totti justice. We picked Suarez stupidly early to get an inside forward to run off him, turned down Zidane and Laudrup to keep the focus on the Roma star.

I think we've done a great job, IMO he'll get way more credit it the next draft which he absolutely deserves. Incredible player and so, so underrated.
 
...but he didn't.

http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1998/09/27/pagina-4/401344/pdf.html - September 1998
http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/2000/01/10/pagina-6/663006/pdf.html - January 2000
http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/2001/03/04/pagina-4/432812/pdf.html - March 2001
http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/2001/11/05/pagina-10/464210/pdf.html - November 2001

There's others if I search more but these are the first 4 to come up, and this is the Catalan press as well...you can't possibly say that Rivaldo generally got the better of him, that would be ridiculous.

Btw, nice quotes on Desailly :D he deserves all the recognition he has gotten throughout his career.

I also think Theon is way too harsh on Simeone, who at both Lazio and Atlético was a phenomenal midfielder. The quality of midfielders is very high, but that shouldn't be an insult to Simeone really.
 
Thanks for the links Pippa, I'll have a look when I'm finished duelling with TITO and Theon.
 
Romario dances away from Montero and the Uruguayan, no stranger to a red card, hacks him down - penalty! Up steps Brehme...

 
Isn't it against the rules to have 2 people arguing against 1 person, by the way?
 
It's the final of the entire draft and I'm busy in work so I hope it's ok if Theon is chipping in for me now.
 
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