Redcafe Sheep Draft 1st Semi Final - Edgar Allan Pillow vs Gio

[antohan]

Not really. You still haven't really addressed how you are to cope with the three playing between your defence and midfield, the interchanging of positions those three are capable of makes it a lot harder than just "Desailly on Rivaldo, job done"

In fairness, that's where his "weaker" fullbacks are handy. If you told me you had a back four with Branco I would laugh my arse off, less so with Amoros. But they are very much the sort I don't consider fullbacks who stay deep in a four-man backline watching things happen elsewhere, they are far more comfortable in a five. Branco is more of a midfielder, he is on Nedved or anyone "interchanging" in that zone, Amoros is doing much the same, then you have Desailly, Sammer and Ballack picking up movement and magical interchanging through the middle.

I'm not really seeing much of that having any real impact. I think as the game stands Nedved will stick to the right, try beat Branco and cross for Vieri, while Rivaldo and Brehme will double up on Amoros and drag Sanchís. Those are clear cut ways to try fashion a goalscoring opportunity, all this fancy interchanging nonsense is more smoke and mirrors than anything else.

 

[Stobzilla]

In fairness, that's where his "weaker" fullbacks are handy. If you told me you had a back four with Branco I would laugh my arse off, less so with Amoros. But they are very much the sort I don't consider fullbacks who stay deep in a four-man backline watching things happen elsewhere, they are far more comfortable in a five. Branco is more of a midfielder, he is on Nedved or anyone "interchanging" in that zone, Amoros is doing much the same, then you have Desailly, Sammer and Ballack picking up movement and magical interchanging through the middle.

I'm not really seeing much of that having any real impact. I think as the game stands Nedved will stick to the right, try beat Branco and cross for Vieri, while Rivaldo and Brehme will double up on Amoros and drag Sanchís. Those are clear cut ways to try fashion a goalscoring opportunity, all this fancy interchanging nonsense is more smoke and mirrors than anything else.

Whatever square.

 

[Gio]

Fundamentally for me it comes down to:

• Pavel Nedved getting the better of Branco who, for all the delights of his left peg, is a weak link at this level.
• Andreas Brehme and Rivaldo doubling up on Amoros. They're both going to get into very dangerous positions and are extremely comfortable at nestling one in from the edge of the box or further. Either that or there's a steady flow of testing crosses for Vieri to get on the end of.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

So it's a 5 vs 6 going the other way ?

Nullified.

Forget his 6 is spread across and mine is concentrated. Forget the players involved.

Seems you are preset. No point taking this further.

 

[antohan]

So it's a 5 vs 6 going the other way ?

Nullified.

Not sure what numbers you guys are referring to but this simple adding and substracting frustrated the hell out of me in the last game. Brehme counts in both attacking and defensive phases, Bergomi doesn't. Ergo, the side with Brehme "adds up" one more than the one with Bergomi. It's all rather mute except when you have extreme cases like NO defenders attacking and NO attackers defending :sarcasticsmilie:

If you asked me what's up with them here I reckon Amoros can't be particularly adventurous but will in turn do a reasonably accomplished defensive job and Branco will only be effective in keeping Nedved out of midfield. Brehme is fine going back and forth and Bergomi is indeed best used staying back and tucking in.

 

[Stobzilla]

Not sure what numbers you guys are referring to but this simple adding and substracting frustrated the hell out of me in the last game. Brehme counts in both attacking and defensive phases, Bergomi doesn't. Ergo, the side with Brehme "adds up" one more than the one with Bergomi. It's all rather mute except when you have extreme cases like NO defenders attacking and NO attackers defending :sarcasticsmilie:

If you asked me what's up with them here I reckon Amoros can't be particularly adventurous but will in turn do a reasonably accomplished defensive job and Branco will only be effective in keeping Nedved out of midfield. Brehme is fine going back and forth and Bergomi is indeed best used staying back and tucking in.

That is what I was getting at.

 

[Stobzilla]

Forget his 6 is spread across and mine is concentrated. Forget the players involved.

Seems you are preset. No point taking this further.

Forget that the players aren't playing on train tracks, forget these are intelligent professionals who can adapt when they see patterns of play developing.

These drafts are getting more and more pointless, they used to be fun.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Fundamentally for me it comes down to:

• Pavel Nedved getting the better of Branco who, for all the delights of his left peg, is a weak link at this level.
• Andreas Brehme and Rivaldo doubling up on Amoros. They're both going to get into very dangerous positions and are extremely comfortable at nestling one in from the edge of the box or further. Either that or there's a steady flow of testing crosses for Vieri to get on the end of.

And Rui Costa, Baggio and Romario? Your fullbacks can cause havoc, but my attack is impotent?

 

[Gio]

And Rui Costa, Baggio and Romario? Your fullbacks can cause havoc, but my attack is impotent?

Absolutely not. But we deal with that through:

• An impeccable defence positioned narrowly as a tight back four.
• Two central midfielders operating conservatively to squeeze the space in the hole

 

[Pippa]

EAP, how did you arrive at this team selection? Just wondering

 

[antohan]

TBH EAP, I think you should consider that switch Pippa suggested:

Amoros----Sanchis-----Desailly-----Maldini
-------------------Sammer
---------Cambiasso----Ballack
-------------------Rui Costa
--------------Romario----Baggio/Sheva

I've swapped around Cambiasso, not his preferred side, but you need him there to support the flank under more pressure. You would then be absolutely fine on the left, centrally, same punch upfront really (Gio is right, Sammer centrally won't do anything Ballack isn't doing already), and better setup in the more exposed flank.

 

[crappycraperson]

You may not rate Rui Costa, but discounting him completely? Are not Davids and Simeone occupied by my Ballack and Sammer? Unless they are capable of operating in two places at once, I just don't understand this logic.

@Pippa The thing is Rui Costa + Romario is in intself lethal. If you are looking at adding creativity to that, Baggio is a far better choice than Sheva.

I have never mentioned that my fullbacks are going to attack. It still is a 5 vs 4 in my defensive favour, which will negate any 'extra' powers that Nedved might have. But then again seems Baggio does not have the same powers Nedved has which is very weird. My attack is better than his!

As far as preference of attack goes, it comes down to personal opinion. I am always inclined toward a team that can stretch the play. I think with your back line you can afford to have attacking full backs. Someone like Cafu or Brehme would add another dimension to your team. Will make sure Gio's CBs can not tuck in to further crowd out the place in the middle.

I also do not get the point bout Sammer and Ballack keeping Gio's 2 CMs busy leaving Costa free. They would hardly be marking them, in fact they would not be man marking anyone. They would be mostly defending the space in front of the defense. I don't see all 3 of your CMs breaking in that same area at the same time. When I say I don't rate Costa as much, it is about this match up where he will have to needle the ball through in such a congested space.

All in all, it would be a tight match, you could certainly one. Like I said it came down to me rating some of the players in Gio's team more than yours.

 

[antohan]

EAP, how did you arrive at this team selection? Just wondering

In a rather haphazard way. He started hoping to get Nedved and Mendieta centrally (lucky he didn't, really) and once he couldn't get Nedved rejigged plans and got here.

Crucially, I think we discussed and agreed this looked pretty solid BEFORE the draw. Once the draw took place, and particularly now that Gio's exact setup is clear (EAP seemed to just expect Nedved and Brehme to show up on the left), there's clear room for improvement.

 

[Balu]

Amoros----Sanchis-----Desailly-----Maldini
-------------------Sammer
---------Cambiasso----Ballack
-------------------Rui Costa
--------------Romario----Baggio/Sheva

That's even better than my Sammer libero, Desailly DM suggestion. It's perfect, really no idea why he chose the diamond with several players out of their best position over this.

 

[crappycraperson]

Take it easy EAP. It is semis so it will always be tight.
You can't rail road people into changing their opinion. You have a good team but so does Gio.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

If you were picking a combined back four, it would be:

Brehme - Maldini - Kohler - Bergomi

You would've picked Campbell there if he wasn't black.

 

[Theon]

You would've picked Campbell there if he wasn't black.

 

[Brwned]

Change made. Cambiasso's on to offer some support in midfield and block off any passing channels to Rivaldo as much as he can when we're out of possession and to add some calm, calculated passing when in possession. Desailly's dropped back into defence to nullify Vieri's formidable physical and aerial threat while Maldini is ready to step out and take on Nedved whenever possible, safe in the knowledge that Bergomi's going nowhere and his midfielders are offering minimal threat. Sammer's dropped back into the thick of things here, orchestrating every attack from deep with no pressure at all from Hagi and Rivaldo and patrolling that area in front of the defence with authority and composure. Ballack is still free to go forward and occupy Simeone whenever possible while Rui Costa is drifting anywhere and everywhere to provide that easy pass from midfield and then gets things going in the middle third. Baggio's still drifting around that attacking third, dragging his marker out of position at every chance he gets and capitalising on any space he gets as the covering defenders are caught in two minds between stepping out and picking up Baggio or hanging pack and preventing Romario from getting that yard of space to get a goal out of nothing.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I am not too fond of the Hagi-Rivaldo-Nedved combination, I just think they are all a mix of "inside forwards" who love to be playmakers as well.

Play any two of them together and it'll work great, but play three inside forwards and you start getting a bit tight and clumsy. Would take a miracle for all of them to click, which is really necessary when you play them so tight to each other.

On the other hand EAP has great defensive players individually but as a system I think that the wide areas will be defended fairly poorly in comparison to Gio who has more men defending in the midfield line with 4-5 vs just 3-4.

For now I won't vote, I really can't separate either team so this will be one of the first times I don't vote then. Of course some new discussion/tactical changes may change it.

 

[RoadTrip]

I am not too fond of the Hagi-Rivaldo-Nedved combination, I just think they are all a mix of "inside forwards" who love to be playmakers as well.

Play any two of them together and it'll work great, but play three inside forwards and you start getting a bit tight and clumsy. Would take a miracle for all of them to click, which is really necessary when you play them so tight to each other.

On the other hand EAP has great defensive players individually but as a system I think that the wide areas will be defended fairly poorly in comparison to Gio who has more men defending in the midfield line with 4-5 vs just 3-4.

For now I won't vote, I really can't separate either team so this will be one of the first times I don't vote then. Of course some new discussion/tactical changes may change it.

I don't particularly agree with this. I think Hagi Rivaldo and Nedved can work only if we stop looking at the trio as is set on the formation. These guys are intelligent technical footballers. They will never at any point be in that position the formation makes them out to be. They will roam. If one has the ball the others will find space. It's all about dynamism. Also I don't really see how they are all inside forwards? Especially Hagi. For me an inside forward starts on the wing and runs at defences at the heart to beat them. I think of a player like Robben when I think inside forward. Or Ronaldo. All of these players are far more technical then them, and have a passing game as much as an ability to run at defences. If you're referring to an inside forward as someone like Iniesta then fine, but then I'd still not buy that these guys can't play together.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I don't particularly agree with this. I think Hagi Rivaldo and Nedved can work only if we stop looking at the trio as is set on the formation. These guys are intelligent technical footballers. They will never at any point be in that position the formation makes them out to be. They will roam. If one has the ball the others will find space. It's all about dynamism. Also I don't really see how they are all inside forwards? Especially Hagi. For me an inside forward starts on the wing and runs at defences at the heart to beat them. I think of a player like Robben when I think inside forward. Or Ronaldo. All of these players are far more technical then them, and have a passing game as much as an ability to run at defences. If you're referring to an inside forward as someone like Iniesta then fine, but then I'd still not buy that these guys can't play together.

Inside forward is just a position, but it describes the middle ground between a winger and a central attacking midfielder.

I love both defenses, Brehme free to roam with the cautiousness of Bergomi is brilliant. But EAP/Brwned got Sammer there as a fifth making it as good too.

For me neither of the offenses has a clear advantage on the defenses. I can see both defenses getting a clean sheet, a draw seems very likely to me.

Rui Costa/Romario/Baggio on the counter can score - so can Gio with his AM's.

 

[Brwned]

I don't particularly think that three attacking midfielders in there in front of a solid midfield is a bad idea and I have no issues with Rivaldo in an inside left position, but I do think Hagi here is largely redundant. Nedved offers that low centre of gravity and willingness to run at players, Rivaldo offers that rocket shot and killer ball...what exactly is Hagi offering here that the other two aren't (and to a higher degree)? He's just there because he's a fancier name than Michel.

The thing is that Hagi's been given the central position here, he's apparently the link between midfield and attack...yet the other two are simply going to see much more of the ball because they're more influential players. That central link is being bypassed again and again, I reckon. With Davids and Simeone offering very little guile and class in behind him and very uninspiring ball players in defence, you wonder who exactly is knitting things together from deep and really orchestrating his build up play.

 

[Gio]

I don't particularly think that three attacking midfielders in there in front of a solid midfield is a bad idea and I have no issues with Rivaldo in an inside left position, but I do think Hagi here is largely redundant. Nedved offers that low centre of gravity and willingness to run at players, Rivaldo offers that rocket shot and killer ball...what exactly is Hagi offering here that the other two aren't (and to a higher degree)? He's just there because he's a fancier name than Michel.

The thing is that Hagi's been given the central position here, he's apparently the link between midfield and attack...yet the other two are simply going to see much more of the ball because they're more influential players. That central link is being bypassed again and again, I reckon. With Davids and Simeone offering very little guile and class in behind him and very uninspiring ball players in defence, you wonder who exactly is knitting things together from deep and really orchestrating his build up play.

Don't see what the issue is with Hagi in the middle of the park. He's playing slightly deeper than Rivaldo and Nedved to help bridge the gap between the midfield and front three. His distribution is excellent and he should have little trouble finding the feet of Rivaldo, Nedved and Brehme. The outstanding physical qualities of Edgar Davids means his use of the ball is often over-looked, but he too can contribute positively in possession, especially as part of that dominant left flank. And at the back Brehme is a constant and regular out-ball. Everybody knows the work-rate of Romario and Baggio is non-existent so Brehme should have little trouble receiving the ball, advancing 30 yards with hit before Cambiasso comes across to meet him. By which time we've got our main men into the attacking third and probing for goals.

 

[Gio]

I am not too fond of the Hagi-Rivaldo-Nedved combination, I just think they are all a mix of "inside forwards" who love to be playmakers as well.

Play any two of them together and it'll work great, but play three inside forwards and you start getting a bit tight and clumsy. Would take a miracle for all of them to click, which is really necessary when you play them so tight to each other.

Nah I think that Nedved is a different breed from the others. In fact the whole reason I decided against bringing Michael Laudrup was because he was too similar to the others, whereas Nedved offers something different. He's very mobile, hard-running, flank-dominating, capable of beating players inside and out. A great foil for Hagi and Rivaldo. And EAP obviously wanted him because he really helps to stretch the play, widen the park and allow other inside-forwards the space they need to change games.

 

[Annahnomoss]

That just isn't my perception of Nedved at all. He wasn't the type of winger to provide width and dominate his full-back in 1 on 1's - he operated as more of an inside forward?

Can you provide me with a compilation that shows his dribbling ability in the means of going on the outside. Or a full match against a competent full-back where he dominates him in the 1 vs 1 repeatedly all game and preferably gets past on the outside several times in one game.

If you can provide it I will certainly re-consider.

 

[Moby]

That just isn't my perception of Nedved at all. He wasn't the type of winger to provide width and dominate his full-back in 1 on 1's - he operated as more of an inside forward?

Can you provide me with a compilation that shows his dribbling ability in the means of going on the outside. Or a full match against a competent full-back where he dominates him in the 1 vs 1 repeatedly all game and preferably gets past on the outside several times in one game.

If you can provide it I will certainly re-consider.

IMO You'll find Nedved always engaged more in the midfield battle and exploding while attacking into all sorta areas, be it out wide or in the middle. I wouldn't call him a "forward" by any means as he was certainly more involved in midfield. He's surely not an out and out winger but totally different from someone like Rivaldo.

When he burst into the scene in Euro 96 he was pretty much an all action midfielder who could also hurt the opposition defense.

 

[Gio]

I'm not claiming Nedved was a touchline-hugging winger, but that he's a different style of attacking midfielder to Hagi and Rivaldo. He ran the channels and foraged across the midfield far more than they, or any of the other greats like Zidane, Baggio or Laudrup did.

 

[Annahnomoss]

IMO You'll find Nedved always engaged more in the midfield battle and exploding while attacking into all sorta areas, be it out wide or in the middle. I wouldn't call him a "forward" by any means as he was certainly more involved in midfield. He's surely not an out and out winger but totally different from someone like Rivaldo.

When he burst into the scene in Euro 96 he was pretty much an all action midfielder who could also hurt the opposition defense.

That is my perception on it too.

 

[Buchan]

You would've picked Campbell there if he wasn't black.

 

[antohan]

Also I don't really see how they are all inside forwards? Especially Hagi. For me an inside forward starts on the wing and runs at defences at the heart to beat them. I think of a player like Robben when I think inside forward. Or Ronaldo.

I think you are mixing up inside forward and inverted winger. Completely different things.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

EAP, how did you arrive at this team selection? Just wondering

In a rather haphazard way. He started hoping to get Nedved and Mendieta centrally (lucky he didn't, really) and once he couldn't get Nedved rejigged plans and got here.

Actually not. My only theme for this draft was not to field a 4-2-3-1 side. Zeroed in on diamond based on Milan's CL winning side.
Immediately after first game, I realized the problems as 1) Alonso nowhere good enough 2) Cambiasso rated low and 3) Ballack becoming invisble as he could not exert influence in neither attack nor defence. Out went Alonso for Sammer. With choices like Effenberg/Cocu/Schweini, me and Brwned decided that promoting Sammer would do the job and so in came Desailly. Sadly that is not working either and cycle is complete when we subbed Desailly out for Cambiasso

 

[antohan]

With choices like Effenberg/Cocu/Schweini, me and Brwned decided that promoting Sammer would do the job and so in came Desailly. Sadly that is not working either and cycle is complete when we subbed Desailly out for Cambiasso

I always felt the whole Desailly DM-Sammer CM thing was an agreeable halfway house before getting Redondo/Davids for CM and playing the other two where you have them now.

 

[antohan]

The new this11 format looks shite, bigger fonts, in white... just when I was getting used to it

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I always felt the whole Desailly DM-Sammer CM thing was an agreeable halfway house before getting Redondo/Davids for CM and playing the other two where you have them now.

It is. Sammer was never to be a continuing CM. We thought Sammer would considered more box-to-box than Effenberg, Cocu or Schweini. But considered out of position, we did not expect.

So what about the new setup?

The new this11 format looks shite, bigger fonts, in white... just when I was getting used to it

And it does not work from office or from my phone :-(

 

[Isotope]

Nedved can definitely go down hugging the line and delivering cross, if necessary. Not so much with Hagi, who isn't that fast but rely more on skill.

Cambiasso look like out of place in EAP's team, but I think in overall, his has more flow on the play from midfield to attack, instead of Gio's with Davids and Simeone in there. But those two also add more steel to Gio's defence who imho is already superb.

 

[antohan]

It is. Sammer was never to be a continuing CM. We thought Sammer would considered more box-to-box than Effenberg, Cocu or Schweini. But considered out of position, we did not expect.

For a diamond I would rate both Cocu and Schweini higher, not Effenberg. I was looking at Davids to replace Cocu myself so obviously wouldn't pick him at this stage, not ahead of Romario I would have happily taken Schweini to the final, but with Redondo and Davids bound to be up for grabs next I can see why you would "wing" the midfield upgrade. Both Romario and Desailly are final winning quality in their respective positions. Can't be far wrong with those picks!

So what about the new setup?

I told you to do it! Of course I agree with it

Question is whether people who already voted against you would reconsider because that gap is quite significant in a semi. Doesn't look like many voters floating around, I was actually disappointed at how many regulars didn't vote at all in my game

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Fundamentally for me it comes down to:

• Pavel Nedved getting the better of Branco who, for all the delights of his left peg, is a weak link at this level.
• Andreas Brehme and Rivaldo doubling up on Amoros. They're both going to get into very dangerous positions and are extremely comfortable at nestling one in from the edge of the box or further. Either that or there's a steady flow of testing crosses for Vieri to get on the end of.

The formation change should address this.

Nedved is against Maldini now.
Amoros with a bit of support from Sanchis should manage against Rivaldo. If and when Brehme forges ahead, Cambiasso is nearby to handle it.
Sammer in his favourite role is there to keep an eye on Hagi

Absolutely not. But we deal with that through:

• An impeccable defence positioned narrowly as a tight back four.

With tucked in defending tactic, I think Brehme/Bergomi will not venture forward as much as they usually do.

My advantages now:

- Where I see as a distinct advantage is the low attacking threat offered by Davids/Simeone. They do not offer much threat in moving the ball to the attack through the middle. You NEED fullbacks to do that and with a tucked in defending tactic, take away much of their impact
- On the flip side, in Ballack and Cambiasso, I have 2 CM's who can drop back to lend a hand to defence when you attack, but when I'm in possession, they will move forward to occupy Davids/Simeone, leaving Rui Costa free.
- With Rui Costa/Baggio/Romario there, even with a tucked in back 4, I still think I have the advantage.

 

[antohan]

Cambiasso look like out of place in EAP's team, but I think in overall, his has more flow on the play from midfield to attack, instead of Gio's with Davids and Simeone in there.

Cambiasso and Simeone are about the same level though IMO. Good, not top tier game-winners that you would want to take into a final, but "will do a competent job" standard.

Cambiasso is actually a better fit for free-flowing one-touch buildup than either of the other two TBH. Won't shine but will keep the ball moving and do a good job of supporting Amoros vs. Rivaldo and Brehme. Teams need players like that here and there.

 

[Isotope]

Cambiasso and Simeone are about the same level though IMO. Good, not top tier game-winners that you would want to take into a final, but "will do a competent job" standard.

Cambiasso is actually a better fit for free-flowing one-touch buildup than either of the other two TBH. Won't shine but will keep the ball moving and do a good job of supporting Amoros vs. Rivaldo and Brehme. Teams need players like that here and there.

Yeah. Simeone's performance is somehow escape my memory, but left the impression of just another dirty player. While, imho, Cambiasso is more into a mobile Carrick with less passing range, contrary to the popular opinion of him as a mere hacking DM.

I actually prefer EAP's early formation with Dessaily - Ballack - Summer as midfield trio + Rui Costa. I think those midfield would dominate any team left in the semi-final. But seems like people don't rate Blanco much, thus EAP succumb to the peer pressure

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I actually prefer EAP's early formation with Dessaily - Ballack - Summer as midfield trio + Rui Costa. I think those midfield would dominate any team left in the semi-final. But seems like people don't rate Blanco much, thus EAP succumb to the peer pressure

Lets not go down that route again.

All I can say is that Branco is not happy. The transition from a player considered for the all star team to a comparitive whore in a church situation has upset him quite a bit, I should say.