Redcafe Sheep Draft 1st Semi Final - Edgar Allan Pillow vs Gio

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
Interesting matchup, I think it's really a matter of who will hit who better(duh)...

Hagi-Rivaldo-Nedved is a brilliant trio because they can all switch sides with each other and create a very dynamic attack, who might cause problems to EAP's brilliantly set up defensive side.
On the other hand, lack of threat from Bergomi's wing(with Nedved tracking Branco), will allow Bergomi to act as a third CB, a position he's perfectly capable of doing, while on the other hand I think Brehme will be much more busier providing width on the left wing. Davids & Simeone are a great cover for defense but will that be enough against Rui Ballack & Sammer? Not sure about that.
From open play, I actually think neither team will score but the one who might has to be EAP, whilst on counters both incredibly dangerous - Sammer gets the ball and spreads it long to Rui/Baggio/Romario against Simeone/Bergomi/Black CB/Kohler, some times it's bound to work. Or Simeone steals the ball and quick short passes between Davids to Nedved/Hagi/Rivaldo with Vieri opening the play against Sammer/Desailly/Amoros/Maldini/Sanchis and maybe Branco.

Anyway, I'm leaning to EAP because of his ability to score from both open play and counters, as for his brilliant balance between defense-midfield-attack..


By the way, @Edgar Allan Pillow , I think if you play Nedved CM it would be a huge waste, if you qualify and really want Nedved, I suggest 4-2-3-1 with Maldini-Desailly CBs, Sammer-Ballack CM, Rui-Baggio-Nedevd behind Romario.

Not voting yet, waiting for @Gio to maybe change my mind
 
Gio said:
On Baggio, his favourite spot on the park is the inside-left, second-striker position. On Bergomi, his favourite spot on the park is the RCB/RB channel. I've instructed him to tuck in tight so that it's almost a central three in there. And given the calibre of Romario and Baggio, it's just as well that's a shit-hot three to focus entirely on that threat.
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Favourite spot or not, there's no tracking Baggio. And I've given him a free role here. Rui Costa + Romario is a big concern for you. If Baggio switches position which he is capable of, I don't think Bergomi will follow him.

In box, out of box, screamers outside, dinks inside, dribbling... Baggio is a threat all over.

I don't think tucking in Bergomi will contain him at all!
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
OK, just to clarify... This is a simulation I anticipated. The Players changed, but formation and tactics did not.

Forget the player names and just anticipate the game play.
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1. I have sufficient cover in defence to hold him.
When Brehme and Rivaldo get 2 on 1 against Amoros, we're in behind your defence and it's chances ahoy.

2. Midfield is tied even, though mine are better suited to my attack than his are to his attack. At worst it is tied and they won't support his defensive line.
Your problem is a total lack of attacking width. We can defend narrow - make the pitch 40 yards wide instead of 75 - and have no problems in doing so. The narrowness of your attack also means that Rui Costa and Baggio will be getting in one another's way, especially when you throw in what made Ballack and Sammer really famous: their ability to burst through the centre of the park. That's a clusterfeck and when possession breaks down, I've got players - Nedved, Rivaldo, Brehme - to make a killing.

3. He has no protection against my attack. Esp on counter, I will definitely score and more than once.
See above. Davids and Simeone are playing conservatively. We have an outstanding back four with no chinks in it. "No protection" is plain rubbish.

4. My attacking roster is way better than his defensive roster.
Rubbish again, see above.

5. With more bodies in midfield, I control that area. Add in more lethal attackers, it's in my favour!
6. My threat in midfield far out scores his on width.
Not when all of your midfielders are running into the same cramped area. Meanwhile I've got 2 on 1's on the flank in oceans of space.
 
Balu said:
Pretty sure it was a 532 with Sammer, Zorc and Michael Rummenigge in midfield. I don't think there was a midfield role comparable to the anchor in a diamond.

I don't really get, why he doesn't start as a libero with Desailly as the DM though? The classic 532 set-up with a DM in midfield covering for Sammer's runs and complete freedom for the wingbacks to move forward? Ballack '06 in midfield is a great fit as well and Sammer would play his Ballon d'Or role and not one he maybe played for half a year and did a good job in.
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I'd have preferred that too.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Favourite spot or not, there's no tracking Baggio. And I've given him a free role here. Rui Costa + Romario is a big concern for you. If Baggio switches position which he is capable of, I don't think Bergomi will follow him.

In box, out of box, screamers outside, dinks inside, dribbling... Baggio is a threat all over.

I don't think tucking in Bergomi will contain him at all!
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As much as I love a bit of Baggio, Bergomi's a lot closer to being the best of all time in his position than him. And Baggio's hardly a free-roaming Nedved or Boniek type, he'll float in the same sort of areas and even when he doesn't, we pass him on. It's what defenders do time and time again, never mind many of the greatest of all time ones who are filling my back line.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Anyway, I'm leaning to EAP because of his ability to score from both open play and counters
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Counters have become such an important source of goals in these things that they are not even open play any more. It's like some parallel universe where goals are much easier to score and players flit around the pitch like fireflies.
 
antohan said:
Counters have become such an important source of goals in these things that they are not even open play any more. It's like some parallel universe where goals are much easier to score and players flit around the pitch like fireflies.
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Exactly! Usually set pieces are something that are out of the open play, but counters as well now. :lol:
 
The way I see it is that:
  • Edgar offers lots of central threat, but it's diminishing returns when they're all piled in there populating the same area.
  • The lack of attacking width means it's easy to defend narrow. Breaking through a narrow, compact defence is the hardest job in football.
  • When we recover possession, as we will frequently do, we have easy out-balls to Brehme, Rivaldo and Nedved. Rivaldo and Nedved are capable and will beat their men one-on-one.
  • Brehme is pretty much the difference here. He's completely unshackled, can roam up the park at free will, and the extra man will give us opportunity after opportunity.
 
Gio said:
As much as I love a bit of Baggio, Bergomi's a lot closer to being the best of all time in his position than him. And Baggio's hardly a free-roaming Nedved or Boniek type, he'll float in the same sort of areas and even when he doesn't, we pass him on. It's what defenders do time and time again, never mind many of the greatest of all time ones who are filling my back line.
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438760.jpg
 
In reality you would expect Gio's group of players to compact themselves because most of EAP's threat plays through the middle, so I can't see the extra man in midfield posing a huge threat. I think a 4-2-2-2 would've been a better choice for Gio with Nedved and Hagi tucked in, or if possible an actual 3-5-2 if he has the personnel.

I don't see there being a huge threat from wide either, considering how there is only one attacking fullback from Gio. If anything Desailly could tuck right into the defence but that leaves a Sammer-Ballack pivot. I always thought Ballack was better further up the pitch but he is capable in CM. I guess that's the benefit of those "ambiguous" formations...it allows you to claim two crucial things at once.

I'm not really a big fan of Sammer as a CM either, from what I've seen of him playing there was a distinct difference in his quality as a central midfielder and as a sweeper; Kicker agrees with that sentiment looking at how they rated his play, regardless of his goal numbers.

I like EAP's centre "base" much more than the rest of his team. Sanchís-Desailly-Maldini is very good. I've never heard of Amoros before, Branco is average at this level as well IMO. Realistically speaking I can see Nedved get the better of him consistently if they are in single confrontations.

I would rather see a Sheva-Romário pairing right up against Gio's central defence rather than Baggio-Romário.
 
Went with Gio. It is a simple case of rating his personnel too much. While tactics matter, at the end of the day if you put in a group of exceptional footballers in a reasonable formation that do not hinder anyone's play, it will work out. Rivaldo, Nedved and Hagi are capable of scoring and creating. That helps since Vieri could get just swallowed by Edgar's central defense. Nedved against Branco is a mis match for me. I would be surprised if he gets any credit attacking wise here as well, which makes me wonder if Edgar was better off playing Maldini at left. As evident from the last game, I rate Brehme a lot as well.

On the other end, I love Baggio, due of Romario and himself will be something. But they are up against Kohler, Sol and Bergomi tucking in. Not to mention the dogs that are Davids and Simone. I think Edgar should have played Sheva, Romario uptop with Baggio behind them. May be it just comes down to me not rating Costa as much as others. Perhaps I am wrong, but that's just how it is. I don't think he will have much impact against that CM duo. Ballack is the threat from Edgar's side who can make a difference my opinion if he does not have any one on him. He is capable of hitting one from long distance as well but then you would expect Davids or Simone to close him down.

All in all, it would be a tight match but as I said at the start I rate the players in Gio's team to make the difference
 
Gio said:
2. Midfield is tied even, though mine are better suited to my attack than his are to his attack. At worst it is tied and they won't support his defensive line.
Your problem is a total lack of attacking width. We can defend narrow - make the pitch 40 yards wide instead of 75 - and have no problems in doing so. The narrowness of your attack also means that Rui Costa and Baggio will be getting in one another's way, especially when you throw in what made Ballack and Sammer really famous: their ability to burst through the centre of the park. That's a clusterfeck and when possession breaks down, I've got players - Nedved, Rivaldo, Brehme - to make a killing.

3. He has no protection against my attack. Esp on counter, I will definitely score and more than once.
See above. Davids and Simeone are playing conservatively. We have an outstanding back four with no chinks in it. "No protection" is plain rubbish.

4. My attacking roster is way better than his defensive roster.
Rubbish again, see above.

5. With more bodies in midfield, I control that area. Add in more lethal attackers, it's in my favour!
6. My threat in midfield far out scores his on width.
Not when all of your midfielders are running into the same cramped area. Meanwhile I've got 2 on 1's on the flank in oceans of space.
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I sincerely hope you have not read my tactics.

1. There is no way Rui Costa is going to overlap with Ballack, far less Rui Costa. It just is rubbish, imo. Ballack is operating behind Rui Costa, and both are capable of alternating position. Why is this difficult to visualize? I don't ever see both in same place at same time.

Rubbish # 1

3. Aren't you discounting Ballack and Sammer 'just because of a imaginary overlap'. They will keep Simeone and Davids busy leaving Rui Costa free. I really don't see this imaginary overlap making my midfielders invisible and giving yours complete freedom!

Rubbish #3

4. Rubbish again. How is it? You do not have any defenders in same category as Baggio or Romario. Care to explain further?

Rubbish #4

5 & 6 - Oceans of space on the width as opposed to interchangeable middle? Same Rubbish as #1


Gio said:
never mind many of the greatest of all time ones who are filling my back line.
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Seriously? A GOAT greater than Maldini from MY back line? I rate Bergomi, but him being a GOAT having an impact greater than Maldini is a big stretch.


crappycraperson said:
Went with Gio. It is a simple case of rating his personnel too much. While tactics matter, at the end of the day if you put in a group of exceptional footballers in a reasonable formation that do not hinder anyone's play, it will work out. Rivaldo, Nedved and Hagi are capable of scoring and creating. That helps since Vieri could get just swallowed by Edgar's central defense. Nedved against Branco is a mis match for me. I would be surprised if he gets any credit attacking wise here as well, which makes me wonder if Edgar was better off playing Maldini at left. As evident from the last game, I rate Brehme a lot as well.

On the other end, I love Baggio, due of Romario and himself will be something. But they are up against Kohler, Sol and Bergomi tucking in. Not to mention the dogs that are Davids and Simone. I think Edgar should have played Sheva, Romario uptop with Baggio behind them. May be it just comes down to me not rating Costa as much as others. Perhaps I am wrong, but that's just how it is. I don't think he will have much impact against that CM duo. Ballack is the threat from Edgar's side who can make a difference my opinion if he does not have any one on him. He is capable of hitting one from long distance as well but then you would expect Davids or Simone to close him down.

All in all, it would be a tight match but as I said at the start I rate the players in Gio's team to make the difference
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You may not rate Rui Costa, but discounting him completely? Are not Davids and Simeone occupied by my Ballack and Sammer? Unless they are capable of operating in two places at once, I just don't understand this logic.

@Pippa The thing is Rui Costa + Romario is in intself lethal. If you are looking at adding creativity to that, Baggio is a far better choice than Sheva.

I have never mentioned that my fullbacks are going to attack. It still is a 5 vs 4 in my defensive favour, which will negate any 'extra' powers that Nedved might have. But then again seems Baggio does not have the same powers Nedved has which is very weird. My attack is better than his!
 
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Pippa said:
I like EAP's centre "base" much more than the rest of his team. Sanchís-Desailly-Maldini is very good. I've never heard of Amoros before, Branco is average at this level as well IMO. Realistically speaking I can see Nedved get the better of him consistently if they are in single confrontations.
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It's fair to say Nedved would be too much for Branco, but with Maldini in support I wouldn't be particularly concerned. I actually see this the other way around: Nedved is contained overall and is wasted tracking an inferior player in Branco, who still requires that tracking. Great player, but will have no significant impact in this game.

I think Gio is spot on about his path of least resistance being Brehme-Rivaldo on Amoros and Sanchís covering. Will likely force Desailly to spend much of the game in defence, and Sammer picking up Hagi. Once you look at it that way Sammer definitely should be libero, Desailly would likely fall into the trap/comfort zone of effectively becoming a defender all game while Sammer certainly wouldn't.

I would rather see a Sheva-Romário pairing right up against Gio's central defence rather than Baggio-Romário.
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Would you sacrifice Rui Costa though? Marketing-wise it may make sense but I don't see much creativity and string-pulling in that midfield. As Gio mentioned, both Sammer and Ballack would be central box-to-box runners, if Desailly swaps with Sammer you don't even get the run...

I may be alone here in significantly rating how Rui Costa can drop deep or stay advanced and influence the game from either position. Paul Scholes had an advanced playmaker phase and a DLP phase, Rui Costa could pull off both types of contribution in a single game, as required. I actually think he is EAP best player in this game and the one who holds the key to win it for him. No, not Romario or Baggio: Rui Costa.
 
I'm clueless why I'm trailing this.

Midfield:

Rivaldo marked by Desailly
Simeone marked by Ballack
Davids makred by Sammer

Rui Costa is free!

Baggio and Romario vs his full backs = In a 2 vs 2 combo, there is no way I'm going to lose.
Ok, Bergoimi will support, but what if Baggio drifts to other areas? Baggio is capable of doing is, but will Bergomi be able to? No way! I don;t see how voters see his front line flexible, but discount Baggio completely?

Just weired and completely diasppointing, I should say :(
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
3. Aren't you discounting Ballack and Sammer 'just because of a imaginary overlap'. They will keep Simeone and Davids busy leaving Rui Costa free. I really don't see this imaginary overlap making my midfielders invisible and giving yours complete freedom!
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When people envisage prime Matthias Sammer, it's him strolling forward from his libero position through the middle of the park to get into the opposition's box. When people see prime Michael Ballack, it's the late-runs-into-the-box machine he was in the early 2000s. Either they're making those runs and all clashing in the same area of the park, or we're getting more limited versions of these great players in a midfield scrap.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
4. Rubbish again. How is it? You do not have any defenders in same category as Baggio or Romario. Care to explain further?
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Jurgen Kohler has a strong case to be the greatest man-marking centre-half of all time. Guiseppe Bergomi and Andreas Brehme are both top 5 or so in their position of all-time. Sol Campbell's not in that league, but he's still an immense centre-half who is second probably only to Rio Ferdinand in the post-92 Premiership.
 
antohan said:
I may be alone here in significantly rating how Rui Costa can drop deep or stay advanced and influence the game from either position. Paul Scholes had an advanced playmaker phase and a DLP phase, Rui Costa could pull off both types of contribution in a single game, as required. I actually think he is EAP best player in this game and the one who holds the key to win it for him. No, not Romario or Baggio: Rui Costa.
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Finally, someone gets the point I mentioned in my OP tactics.

Rui Costa may be underrated, but he still among the top playmakers in the business. he is capable of playing as outright #10 as well as dropping deeper without sacrificing his creativity. Leaving him free is just suicide esp, with my attacking duo!
 
Gio said:
When people envisage prime Matthias Sammer, it's him strolling forward from his libero position through the middle of the park to get into the opposition's box. When people see prime Michael Ballack, it's the late-runs-into-the-box machine he was in the early 2000s. Either they're making those runs and all clashing in the same area of the park, or we're getting more limited versions of these great players in a midfield scrap.
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Envisaging a wrong thing is not a justification. Sammer is perfect for that role and is a proven talent there. Ballack and Rui Costa will alternate, whilst Sammer will be a more than capable backup in offence and defence. Don't see why that will be confusing!

Gio said:
Jurgen Kohler has a strong case to be the greatest man-marking centre-half of all time. Guiseppe Bergomi and Andreas Brehme are both top 5 or so in their position of all-time. Sol Campbell's not in that league, but he's still an immense centre-half who is second probably only to Rio Ferdinand in the post-92 Premiership.
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now, this is getting laughable. I have Maldini and Sanchis, but they are overlooked. Kohler and Bergomi are not as influential as Baggio and Romario. If it comes to a one to one battle, they will lose. /End of.
 
3 of his four are better than yours in my opinion. Kohler is better than Sanchis and both his full backs are better than yours. That isn't to say the players you have aren't good but his in that area are better.

@Edgar Allan Pillow
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
And how is it better than mine?
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I think his full backs are better. And while Maldini is obviously the big name here, I also rate Kohler extremely high. It'd basically be 3 of his and 1 man from yours.

Having said that, you have Desailly capable of dropping in, so it's not as straight forward as Gio's is better than yours.

The Rui Costa issue is also interesting.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Finally, someone gets the point I mentioned in my OP tactics.

Rui Costa may be underrated, but he still among the top playmakers in the business. he is capable of playing as outright #10 as well as dropping deeper without sacrificing his creativity. Leaving him free is just suicide esp, with my attacking duo!
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Criminally underrated, particularly when everyone faps over Batistuta so much. Batistuta for Argentina was a flat-track bully and never replicated his devastating form at Fiorentina to the same effect anywhere else. I don't think it was a case of different Batistutas, but Rui Costa not being the one setting him up over, and over, and over again.
 
@antohan

I don't really understand the "support" argument for Maldini, if Nedved would confront Branco on the wing. Nedved was never a speedy winger, nor would he be the type to consistently beat a defender with dribbling. But the way I see it, Branco is so out of place that someone like Nedved could consistently get the upper hand on him. His delivery was never brilliant but with Vieri in the box it's fair game with his aggressive play.

I won't bother on the Brehme/Rivaldo-Amoros scenario, mostly because I've never heard Amoros until now. So I won't judge on that. If anything I would have rather seen Cambiasso play as a midfielder. He's one of the best holding midfielders that I've ever seen, one of the best midfielders around in his peak.

From what I recall when he was playing in the last game he wasn't rated highly. I don't remember the exact quotes though. He was never part of the brand of "open football" but rather smart, team-oriented football. Looking at the base of EAP's team, it would be a perfect fit. One of those type of players where if you don't rate him highly, you haven't seen him play...period

Amoros-Sanchís-Sammer-Desailly-Maldini
-----Ballack-------------Cambiasso---
-------------Rui Costa--------------
-------Sheva---------Romário

That's exactly how I would play it. Distribution from back with Cambiasso and Ballack, a classic #10 in RC, one drifting forward in Sheva and a pure CF in Romário. Width from Maldini, I don't know what Amoros provides so let's just say he is a decent fullback.

It's a perfect back line with Sammer as a libero, but it would probably be a bit redundant with Gio only having one CF in Vieri. Then again I'm not really a fan of a back three unless there is two real CFs not to mention it's really described as an ambiguous formation with Sammer being a "superman" if you know what I mean...
 
As a final summary:

Hagi vs Desailly. Rivaldo + Nedved + Vieri vs Amoros + Sanchis + Maldini + Branco

A 5 vs 4 defence.

Sammer + Ballack vs Simeone + Davids

Rui Costa + Romario + a roaming Baggio vs his 4 back line ( and he still expects his fullbacks to provide width).


Gio said:
If you were picking a combined back four, it would be:

Brehme - Maldini - Kohler - Bergomi
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Stobzilla said:
3 of his four are better than yours in my opinion. Kohler is better than Sanchis and both his full backs are better than yours. That isn't to say the players you have aren't good but his in that area are better.

@Edgar Allan Pillow
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Thisistheone said:
I think his full backs are better. And while Maldini is obviously the big name here, I also rate Kohler extremely high. It'd basically be 3 of his and 1 man from yours.

Having said that, you have Desailly capable of dropping in, so it's not as straight forward as Gio's is better than yours.

The Rui Costa issue is also interesting.
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Bergomi is tucking in to contain Baggio, discount him from a major attacking option. He may support, but never a constant threat.
As for Brehme, what if Baggio drifts that side? Brehme's attack is severly constrained by that, else he gives me a marked advantage there.

Having Baggio there haves a marked influence on both Brehme and Bergomi, on who is to stay back to support.

Sanchis vs Kohler is a marginal difference. Not enough to make a big difference imo.
 
Gio said:
If you were picking a combined back four, it would be:

Brehme - Maldini - Kohler - Bergomi
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Very much so (if you discard Desailly and Sammer from the convo).

But you have Vieri and he has Romario and Baggio.
 
antohan said:
Criminally underrated, particularly when everyone faps over Batistuta so much. Batistuta for Argentina was a flat-track bully and never replicated his devastating form at Fiorentina to the same effect anywhere else. I don't think it was a case of different Batistutas, but Rui Costa not being the one setting him up over, and over, and over again.
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I had Rui in the Champions Leageu draft and he got nowehre near enough credit, sadly.
 
Not really. You still haven't really addressed how you are to cope with the three playing between your defence and midfield, the interchanging of positions those three are capable of makes it a lot harder than just "Desailly on Rivaldo, job done"
 
Pippa said:
@antohan

I don't really understand the "support" argument for Maldini, if Nedved would confront Branco on the wing. Nedved was never a speedy winger, nor would he be the type to consistently beat a defender with dribbling. But the way I see it, Branco is so out of place that someone like Nedved could consistently get the upper hand on him. His delivery was never brilliant but with Vieri in the box it's fair game with his aggressive play.
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Yeah, he would get crosses in and I'd agree with the below, having Desailly in defence could work better to deal with Vieri.

I won't bother on the Brehme/Rivaldo-Amoros scenario, mostly because I've never heard Amoros until now. So I won't judge on that. If anything I would have rather seen Cambiasso play as a midfielder. He's one of the best holding midfielders that I've ever seen, one of the best midfielders around in his peak.

From what I recall when he was playing in the last game he wasn't rated highly. I don't remember the exact quotes though. He was never part of the brand of "open football" but rather smart, team-oriented football. Looking at the base of EAP's team, it would be a perfect fit. One of those type of players where if you don't rate him highly, you haven't seen him play...period

Amoros-Sanchís-Sammer-Desailly-Maldini
-----Ballack-------------Cambiasso---
-------------Rui Costa--------------
-------Sheva---------Romário
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It's not a bad call at all. I don't rate Cambiasso as highly as you seem to but I'd agree that looks like something that would give EAP a better grip on the game?

Would he bench Baggio though? Not a chance in hell. I agree Rui Costa gets that role ahead of Baggio though, absolutely no doubt in my mind.

It's a perfect back line with Sammer as a libero, but it would probably be a bit redundant with Gio only having one CF in Vieri. Then again I'm not really a fan of a back three unless there is two real CFs not to mention it's really described as an ambiguous formation with Sammer being a "superman" if you know what I mean...
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That's actually one great reason to have Sammer and not Desailly there, particularly once it transpired Rivaldo is on the flank. EAP doesn't really need that much "dropping into a three" and mostly needs pushing up as a libero, particularly with Hagi likely going deep to build up as Simeone and Davids are no creative geniuses.

Aye, I'd make that switch actually. EAP may resist Sheva over Baggio, but the rest of it all makes perfect sense considering how Gio is set up.
 
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