RedCafe.net Editorial: So, just what has happened to Manchester United?

[Niall]

Another "the end is nigh" article for everyone's enjoyment!

<a href="https://www.redcafe.net/2002-03/editorial.php3?id=87" target="_blank">So, just what has happened to Manchester United?</a>
All is not well at Manchester United football club it seems. As difficult as it is to admit, after almost 10 years of domestic domination, a rot seems to have set in that threatens to turn one trophyless season into a barren spell for the club. While Manchester United has never been healthier off the pitch, on it things are far from right. Kev the reD looks at exactly what is going wrong at Old Trafford...

 

[Neil Thomson]

What do you think Niall?

 

[Livvie]

I'd rather judge when all our players are back, and see how we do then.

But at the moment, we aren't playing to our strengths, but that means going down the same old roads, i.e. do we play with one striker or two from the start.

 

[WeasteDevil]

We are getting a lot of these recently!

 

[ManUtd.USA]

Much to soon to judge anything. It is only 2 November, United has had injuries and Keene is still out with the suspension. United also has only played Tottenham once and have not seen the likes of Chelea, Liverpool and Arsenal yet. Don't think anyone should be passing judgement just yet. Wenger went around saying Arsenal could go undefeated this season and look at where that got him. They have lost four in a row between Premire League play and CL. Long season and anything can and will happen.

 

[Livvie]

I'm still optimistic, as long as we can stay relatively injury free from now on.

We have good players! Something just needs to make them gel as a team.

We didn't really get a good run until the home game against Derby last year, and that was in December, so it's early days yet.

We have the ability. If we can't perform as a team though, we may as well forget it. I'd like to see us get one good result, preferably with a good performance, and then stick with that team.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>We are getting a lot of these recently!</strong><hr></blockquote>

hahaha.. i second this.. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[Amir]

"Diego Forlan though, is a different proposition entirely. He lacks basic attributes, such as will to win"

I got up to this part and then stopped reading. Utter b*llsh*t.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>"Diego Forlan though, is a different proposition entirely. He lacks basic attributes, such as will to win"

I got up to this part and then stopped reading. Utter b*llsh*t.</strong><hr></blockquote>

you are anothe one of those supporters with their heads stuck in the clouds.. i don't think i need to pull your pants down, but i'd really like you to wake up and see the reality that our garden isn't so green anymore...

 

[Amir]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>
you are anothe one of those supporters with their heads stuck in the clouds.. i don't think i need to pull your pants down, but i'd really like you to wake up and see the reality that our garden isn't so green anymore...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh I fully agree, it's not green at all (though not all that black). I would have accepted it if Forlan was explained as a totally useless player.

But to say he lacks the will to win is, as I said earlier, Utter b*llsh*t. Not worthy of the keyboard that was used to type this.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>

Oh I fully agree, it's not green at all (though not all that black). I would have accepted it if Forlan was explained as a totally useless player.

But to say he lacks the will to win is, as I said earlier, Utter b*llsh*t. Not worthy of the keyboard that was used to type this.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i agree.. i think this editorial was a waste.. it's something that's been said too much in the forum.. although i must give him credits for being gutsy enough to write up another controversial editorial after i had been heavily bombarded for doubting SAF in my editorial..

anyway.. i doubt we have problems in the players' department.. my only doubt is in the fact that whether SAF can still do the job.. i will always respect him for what he has done, but i'm certainly not convinced he's still the right man for the job..

 

[zippy]

Originally posted by ManUtd.USA:
<strong>Much to soon to judge anything. It is only 2 November, United has had injuries and Keene is still out with the suspension. United also has only played Tottenham once and have not seen the likes of Chelea, Liverpool and Arsenal yet. Don't think anyone should be passing judgement just yet. Wenger went around saying Arsenal could go undefeated this season and look at where that got him. They have lost four in a row between Premire League play and CL. Long season and anything can and will happen.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1.- We are in trouble if we dont have the strenghth in depth to get along without keane.

2.- Arsenal may have lost 4 games but if you had seen any of the games you would know that they are still playing very well and will probably bounce back by winning 10 striaght games. Although as united fans we would love to say they have crumbled, the reality is they have just gone through a 'blip'.

3.- To say its 'only november' is scary, whats next; 'its only december' and 'its only january'? - we should have started to click by now, the quality of our football is very mediocre other than a few exeptions such as ferdinand we are seriously lacking.

4.- whoever said Forlan is not trying is totally out of whack - he might not have found his groove yet but he is surely one of the players that IS trying very hard.

One point that has to be mentioned is that the Champions league has now become Manchester Uniteds number 1 priority. This has a huge effect on our league games, key players are sometimes rested when they would otherwise have played (would you risk van nistelroy against say charlton when we play Barcelona the following wed?). There has been a consistent de-valuing of some competitions; it started with the worthless cup, then the f.a cup and now it seems to be creeping into the premier league; the attitude now is 'winning the league is a great bonus but the important thing is to qualify for europe'. This is where your glass is either half full or half empty - we are either doing ok by regularly qualifying for europe and reaching the second stage, or, we have dropped our standards by no longer dominating in England...

 

[Jason F]

Im not a huge fa of the piece but i makes some true points in addition to its dubious ones. It is most definitly true to say the team needs some reinforcements, our squad is nothing compared to what it used to be. Im all for getting young players through but sometimes the quality just isnt there or the players are still too young.

The bit about Forlan is crap, im not a huge Forlan fan just yet but he looks like he can be a great player in time.

The team itself just isnt gelling right, the smooth fast passing is gone and has been replaced by alot of long ball type stuff, we dont break out as effectivley on the counter and lack any sort of natural width that Giggs and Beckham used to provide.

To say another barren run is on the way is a joke, we have more cash that anyone else and lets be honest most of our players would walk into the starting lineups at The Arse and Poo. Fact is its just not happening yet, i dont think we will win anything this yr, maybe if we get all our players back and things start to fall into place we will be ok, but please lets have a couple of new players soon!

 

[spinoza]

A load of bullshit in general.

Forlan <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> no will to win, bad positional play - this guy doesn't go to matches.

Jason Roberts for United - scraping the bottom of the barrel. Big, strong but can't shoot.

Silvestre losing concentration - haven't seen that for a while. What other natural left footed full backs are there available?

Sell Veron He's improving with every match, plus he's getting us ahead in Europe. No quick fixes in this game.

Paolo di Canio - buy at whatever cost? Sure he's less than 10m but what about the wage demands. You'll get another 2 years out of him at most. Better to solve the problem now.

We do need strengthening, I completely agree, but we don't need to get rid of anyone we currently have. And we need to look at the long term rather than just this season.

 

[Wibble]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>"Diego Forlan though, is a different proposition entirely. He lacks basic attributes, such as will to win"

I got up to this part and then stopped reading. Utter b*llsh*t.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Totally agree. Diego lacking the will to win is laughable.

 

[Wibble]

"How is an institution that is supposedly so well run turning into an out and out farce of a football club?"

 

[great_se7en]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>"Diego Forlan though, is a different proposition entirely. He lacks basic attributes, such as will to win"

I got up to this part and then stopped reading. Utter b*llsh*t.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Too true, obviously this was written before last night's shirtless antics. But seriously though, I think Diego is one of the few United players with a genuine desire to win. I mean, if what the article says is true, what does that say about some of the other members of the squad? <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" />

 

[Gazza]

I thought Kev the Red is scouser? He must be, because this article stinks of shite.

BTW, why did he write letters like 'must' and 'are' in capitals? Does he think it makes his point more important?

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>I thought Kev the Red is scouser? He must be, because this article stinks of shite.

BTW, why did he write letters like 'must' and 'are' in capitals? Does he think it makes his point more important?</strong><hr></blockquote>

why does everyone who criticizes the team have to be ABU? it doesn't make sense.. you are too narrowminded.. and with your heads stuck in the clouds.

 

[phunky]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

why does everyone who criticizes the team have to be ABU? it doesn't make sense.. you are too narrowminded.. and with your heads stuck in the clouds.</strong><hr></blockquote>

wat do u mean by "heads stuck in the clouds"?

Who doesnt know the club is not performing to the best as it obviously can? However there exists a thin line between constructive criticism and blatant absurdity. Pointing out those falsehoods need not neccessarily mean we are blind to the rest of the existing weaknesses...

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by phunky:
<strong>

wat do u mean by "heads stuck in the clouds"?

Who doesnt know the club is not performing to the best as it obviously can? However there exists a thin line between constructive criticism and blatant absurdity. Pointing out those falsehoods need not neccessarily mean we are blind to the rest of the existing weaknesses...</strong><hr></blockquote>


you are completely missing the point.. i simply asked him if everyone who critizise United have to be an ABU. simple as that.. yes or no was the answer i was looking for..

i know there are differences between the two.. but it doesn't mean that people who give blatant absurdity comments are not fans.. it's not fair to judge people's loyalty simply by their comments.. every fans have different opinions and all of us are entitled to voicing them.

you can agree or disagree with their opinions.. but to remark the opinions with comments like "the article stinks of shit", "he's an ABU" is absolutely absurd.. and they are not constructive by any means.. so i think the person you should say what you said to me to is Gazza who apparently thought Kev the Red was a scouse and that his article stunk of shite - not even knowing whether he is really a scouse..

 

[Rory 7]

I've said this somewhere else before but here goes again........

Last year we lost nine in the league and were still challenging in the last week

We won't lost nine this year. We will make and even stronger challenge this year. All this talk about decline is nonsense. Except for the strikers we have the same sized squad we've always had. United's 'strength in depth' was a myth. Fergie has been a miracle worker with our squad at times.

I'm sick of the negative sentiment from the media. But when United fans start thinking so negatively we have real problems. Lets remember the vast majority of these players won us the Treble. Neville, Butt, Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, Keane, Barthez, Silvestre, Ole are all championship winners.A team that includes players like that doesn't become a bad one overnight. We had real defensive problems last year. They've been solved. The goals will come in the league. Lets get behind the lads a bit more.

 

[phunky]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>
you are completely missing the point.. i simply asked him if everyone who critizise United have to be an ABU. simple as that.. yes or no was the answer i was looking for..
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nah u are missing his point then. Did Gazza at any point says that everybody who is a critic nowadays is ABU?

U just shoot off that people ,who think that things are only going to get better without having to slag the manager and any other mother's son in the team, have their "heads stuck in the clouds".

 

[Nh1878]

Originally posted by RUnited:
i simply asked him if everyone who critizise United have to be an ABU.<hr></blockquote>

No, those who criticise United aren't ABU's but then again, why do you insult those of us who defend the team and SAF as -

too narrowminded.. and with your heads stuck in the clouds.<hr></blockquote>

You see big problems, the team on the decline and a manager who's past it. I see a team with problems, suffering a dip in form, but still good enough to turn it around given a little bit of time. That's not being narrow minded or living in cloud cuckoo land; its called having faith in your team in times of trouble.

 

[redmad]

Instead of making generalisations like "Your heads are in the clouds" or "the critics are ABU's" etc why not just comment specifically on what fellow fans say. E.g the Forlan comment in the article is viewed by most above 2b just plain silly....ok doesnt make him or anyone else an ABU just a wrong(IMO) on that subject, & friends above have said why they & I think so....(He makes excellent points IMO as well btw). Likewise those who "seem to" have an over optimistic view of out situation need not be pushed into a corner by redicule...their comments are valid & open to intelligent challenge...so challenge! In Uni' I remember being told about a lecturer whose notes contained a note in the margin which said "Point weak raise voice!"...In the same way I have noticed a tendency in some to insult others when they appear IMO 2b unable to adequately justify their position...Good articlate argument is appreciated even when one may be wrong.

 

[Gazza]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

why does everyone who criticizes the team have to be ABU? it doesn't make sense.. you are too narrowminded.. and with your heads stuck in the clouds.</strong><hr></blockquote> I never siad that and you know it. Read the article and tell me a United fan wrote that. Saying the club is turning in to a 'farce of a football club' and 'Diego Forlan though, is a different proposition entirely. He lacks basic attributes, such as will to win...' Muppet.

 

[dicko]

Originally posted by zippy:
<strong>the attitude now is 'winning the league is a great bonus but the important thing is to qualify for europe'.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree. I think the important thing is winning the European Cup, or trying to. I read somewhere that the board sets the budget based on us reaching the European Cup quarter finals and qualifying for the Champions League. These are minimum standards. We have met them for the past seven years.

A bit of history to put things in context. We won seven championships in nine years. This equalled Liverpool's most dominant period and is way beyond what anyone else achieved. We won the treble in 1999. In 2000 and 2001 we won the league by miles. Believe it or not there were complaints about our poor seasons because we lost in the European quarter finals!

I believe Fergie decided that our tactics were unlikely to win the European Cup consistently so he decided to change. He bought Veron. Last year we performed better in Europe but dropped in the league. We went close but won nothing. We also lost Jaap Stam, our best defender - before injury definitely, after injury possibly. This year we are still struggling in the league but performances are improving as we continue to learn a new system.

I think we will get better. Players like Forlan, Silvestre, even Phil Neville, are improving. Veron and Scholes are returning to previous levels. defensive problems have also been addressed. Bring back Keano, add another striker, a cover left back and, possibly, cover winger in January and we will be back in trophy winning mode.

PS. I wrote a similar post recently and Livvie asked if I was prepared to accept being nonentities in the league whilst winning the European Cup. I tried to answer but the system said I was temporarily barred from posting ( must be the anti-United nature of my posts ).
I don't think it is about one at the total expense of the other. I don't want mid table in the league but I don't expect it, even if we concentrate on Europe. A bit of fantasy - if I could alter last season I would prefer us winning the European Cup and staying third in the league than winning the league and still losing in the Euro semis.

 

[zippy]

I think trying to win the european cup so hard is costing us in the premier league and personally i dont like it, the reason, is that winning the champions league is, for me, not as 'pure' as winning the prem. For starters, after the initial group stages the european cup becomes a two tie knock out competition - you could be the best team in the comp and just have a couple of players injured and get knocked out just like that because of one bad game. The only true measure of your quality is what you have achived over a full season, knock out competitions are really a bit of a crab shoot.

Of course europe is where the money is, i should forget about trying to be a football purist; the almighty dollar rules everything these days (or euro or pound etc!).

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by phunky:
<strong>

Nah u are missing his point then. Did Gazza at any point says that everybody who is a critic nowadays is ABU?

U just shoot off that people ,who think that things are only going to get better without having to slag the manager and any other mother's son in the team, have their "heads stuck in the clouds".</strong><hr></blockquote>

I apologize for the assumption that Gazza calls everyone who critcises the team an ABU. But he did come to conclusions too soon about Kev the Red's loyalty to the club - this i insist.

Kev did mention in his article that he wanted to see changes.. that he wanted the team to bring trophies 'home' this season.. this to me are comments of a United fan.. not an ABU.

i don't shoot off at people who don't make complaints about the team. I have the most respect for people like <strong> Nh1878, WeasteDevil, and kf </strong> these people in particular have shown how to argue with valid comments that totally disagree with my opinions and those who see problems at the club.

there are ways you can argue posts appropriately and show your wisdoms,.. it is entirely different to make assumptions about people's loyalty by judging at their comments.

i called foul in SAF management style these days.. it doesn't make me an ABU.. and it sure doesn't mean i am a gloryhunter.

like i said, people have their own opinions and are entitled to them.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong> I never siad that and you know it. Read the article and tell me a United fan wrote that. Saying the club is turning in to a 'farce of a football club' and 'Diego Forlan though, is a different proposition entirely. He lacks basic attributes, such as will to win...' Muppet.</strong><hr></blockquote>

he is entitled to his opinions no matter what.. you can argue with the comments, or you can agree. but i doubt it's fair you called him an ABU..

as i said to phunky, i apologize for the assumptions that you call everyone who criticizes the team an ABU.. but you did call Kev an ABU for invalid reasons..

he said in the end how he thought we could change things.. how he wanted to bring the trophu 'home'.. this is enough to show he's a fan who is concerned, and surely not an ABU. ABU fans right now must be very happy about the ways things are going, and not concerned..

i can understand the frustrations optimistic fans are going through when hearing of more criticism.. but again, everyone is entitled to their opinions. you can agree, you can disagree.. but it's surely not fair to judge their loyaty by simply with what they say..

he maybe a gloryhunter.. but i doubt he's an ABU.

 

[RUnited]

i said people who think "we are completely OK" have their heads stuck in the clouds.. yes, those of us who see problems have come to terms with reality..

so no, i did not say you had your head stuck in the clouds, as you clearly see problems with the team as well - just in a more optimistic way, which i have no complaints about. so no, my comment was not directed at people who are of your opinions.

Originally posted by Nh1878:
<strong>

You see big problems, the team on the decline and a manager who's past it. I see a team with problems, suffering a dip in form, but still good enough to turn it around given a little bit of time. That's not being narrow minded or living in cloud cuckoo land; its called having faith in your team in times of trouble.</strong><hr></blockquote>

of coz, it is of significant importance to have faith. i have faith in this team too.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by redmad:
<strong>Instead of making generalisations like "Your heads are in the clouds" or "the critics are ABU's" etc why not just comment specifically on what fellow fans say. E.g the Forlan comment in the article is viewed by most above 2b just plain silly....ok doesnt make him or anyone else an ABU just a wrong(IMO) on that subject, & friends above have said why they & I think so....(He makes excellent points IMO as well btw). Likewise those who "seem to" have an over optimistic view of out situation need not be pushed into a corner by redicule...their comments are valid & open to intelligent challenge...so challenge! In Uni' I remember being told about a lecturer whose notes contained a note in the margin which said "Point weak raise voice!"...In the same way I have noticed a tendency in some to insult others when they appear IMO 2b unable to adequately justify their position...Good articlate argument is appreciated even when one may be wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i said that because Gazza was generalizing that Kev the Red was an ABU when it is quite apparent Kev is a United fan.. he mentioned in his article that he wanted to see changes.. i doubt ABU's want to see changes at United at the moment.

i agree with you entirely about making intelligent remarks in order to argue against anybody's comments.

 

[dicko]

Originally posted by zippy:
<strong>Of course europe is where the money is, i should forget about trying to be a football purist; the almighty dollar rules everything these days (or euro or pound etc!).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Europe is about more than money for United. MUNICH 1958 RIP. Never forget.

 

[dicko]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>he maybe a gloryhunter.. but i doubt he's an ABU.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Gloryhunter is a term of abuse.

I realise that English is your second language and that the word gloryhunter could be interpreted as a fan who wants (hunts)glory for his or her club. However, a gloryhunter is someone who supports the team in the good times and drifts away when things are bad or, even worse, switches to another club.

PS. Don't ask me to speak any language other than English.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by dicko:
<strong>

Gloryhunter is a term of abuse.

I realise that English is your second language and that the word gloryhunter could be interpreted as a fan who wants (hunts)glory for his or her club. However, a gloryhunter is someone who supports the team in the good times and drifts away when things are bad or, even worse, switches to another club.

PS. Don't ask me to speak any language other than English. </strong><hr></blockquote>

thanx for clarifying that up. and no, i wouldn't ask you to speak any other language.. although being in Australia you must be accustomed to a lot of Asians and their languages.

 

[devilish]

All our problems go down on 3 basic rules

1 the 4-4-1-1 formation
2 A defense which need to be improved
3 Lack of strenght in depth

Manutd are STILL the best team in England, but we need to Improve on these 3 points

 

[uranushk1]

I wonder what's this guy's nickname in the forum? Does anyone know?

He has some valid points in his editorial. I agree that with over 85m we should buy more than just 4 players. I also agree that we lack a locksmith up front. It's just so painful to see that we dominated the whole match (such as against Soton) but struggle so much to score a goal. In the good old days we should have at least put four goals pass them.

But then, he also has some very poor points, IMO. Roberts for United is a joke. His critize for Forlan is also totally unfair.

To get it simple, our defence has already improved a lot this season. If we can score as many as the last few seasons, we will be unstoppable in the league.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>All our problems go down on 3 basic rules

1 the 4-4-1-1 formation
2 A defense which need to be improved
3 Lack of strenght in depth

Manutd are STILL the best team in England, but we need to Improve on these 3 points</strong><hr></blockquote>

4 improve attacking creativity.

I think our defence is very much OK - we have conceded the least goals in the league (or i think number 2) and we have improved a lot. with Butt and Keane back to fitness we should have proper cover for Silvestre in P. Neville.

and with Brown back we will have 7 players in the first team defence.. maybe we should only add one more fringe player who can be on standby.

 

[thumper]

How can you say we're STILL the best team in England?? Are Arsenal not the champions? Does that not mean they are the best so at the moment we have to match their standards? Our defence is still not good enough, Blanc is too slow and although he reads the game well he has no pace and the modern game is all about pace. Silvestre imo is not consistent enough, he is nearly always guaranteed a mistake in every match. yes we need more strength in depth and yes we need another striker but dont kid yourself that we're the best cos at the moment we simply are not.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by thumper:
<strong>Silvestre imo is not consistent enough, he is nearly always guaranteed a mistake in every match.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bloody hell, take him outside and have him shot!

A human being making a mistake.