Ronaldo and Messi.. There is only 1 ball on the pitch...
Redcafe Champions League Draft QF3 - Kps v Fergus
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
Nice post
I meant physical presence btw, as in he has the height and strength for the role.
Leaning slightly towards kps. Usually in a game that i'd consider as tight as this one, i'd consider Messi the one likely to make the difference. In this one though he's got Ashley Cole who's the 1 player i don't recall him getting much joy out of which has to count for something in this. As solid as Irwin was, i think Ronaldo could have slightly more joy than Messi will, and with Kily's delivery would be a serious threat coming in at the back post. Kohler and Costacurta is an outstanding pair, while i still have reservations about the Ayala-Samuel pairing, given that i previously could find little evidence of them playing together successfully, and don't hugely rate the latter.
Hard to know who'd come out on top in midfield. Makelele is the right man to try to keep Riquelme quiet. I love the pairing of Davids-Redondo which has got a bit of everything but it'll be hard to get the ball off Schweinsteiger and Scholes.
kps just. 2-1 probably.
Hard to know who'd come out on top in midfield. Makelele is the right man to try to keep Riquelme quiet. I love the pairing of Davids-Redondo which has got a bit of everything but it'll be hard to get the ball off Schweinsteiger and Scholes.
kps just. 2-1 probably.
Fair enough, though Kily vs Thuram is about the biggest mismatch in this game. Don't rate Kily that highly anyway and up against Thuram I really don't see him affecting this game.
I agree with you on that but he was still a great crosser of a ball. I'd still fancy him to get a couple onto Ronaldo's head. Thats really the main difference i can see, both of you have an outstanding fullback each, but in kps's case his is marking the oppositions star player.
However good Thuram is, it's Kily and Cole on that flank so you should be expecting some good crosses for Vieri and Ronaldo. It's a valid point, but if there's a strong side to your CB pair it is their aerial presence.
Don't think you can count discount an Irwin cross (far better quality that Cole) in that case either, but fair enough. Like you said, I think my CBs are pretty suited to dealing with aerial threats and I'd love it if Cole got caught up front or became a key component to his main attacks, more time for Messi.
Cole getting overrated here IMO
kps mentioned earlier he has a good record against Messi with him never scoring against Chelsea. Off the top of my head I can think of four games where Messi played right wing againt Chelsea (CL 06-07 when he got kicked all over a dreadful pitch and the infamous 08-09 semi).
Any leftback would take that.
But in those games it was the whole defense and midfield combining to park the bus and stop Barca. I cannot remember Cole single handedly taking Messi out during Messi's peak and since we are considering players at their best Messi at his best against Cole at his best in a 1 v 1 would surely get the better of him without question. Messi did give the winning assist in that famous Overbo game anyway.
Just stopping him scoring is only half the battle, plus he was only 17/18 in those earlier games and still played brilliantly.
I think Cole is being overrated too if it is claimed he's going to nullify Messi.
It was the collective rather than an individual, best exemplified by Bosingwa playing at left back against Barca in 2008/09.
Having said that, I'm surprised Fergus' son's Reina-Ayala-Samuel triangle is getting overlooked. You should have changed that when you had the chance.
Having said that, I'm surprised Fergus' son's Reina-Ayala-Samuel triangle is getting overlooked. You should have changed that when you had the chance.
Which takes us back to handing the trophy over to Fergus now if no one can conceivably stop Messi. 
BTW Aldo, you said it would be Fergus applying pressure and kps soaking it up and hitting on the break. How is that so different from the scenario Cole handled Messi in?
BTW Aldo, you said it would be Fergus applying pressure and kps soaking it up and hitting on the break. How is that so different from the scenario Cole handled Messi in?
Not nullify, no. What has been said is that Cole-Kohler is a better match for Messi than Irwin-Samuel is for Ronaldo. That before getting into the support that Davids could provide occasionally, to a much higher standard than Scholes.
Which takes us back to handing the trophy over to Fergus now if no one can conceivably stop Messi.
BTW Aldo, you said it would be Fergus applying pressure and kps soaking it up and hitting on the break. How is that so different from the scenario Cole handled Messi in?
So what does having the best payer in the draft count for if you can't say he will eventually get the better of his opponent? Messi is one of the greatest of all time, Cole nowhere near. Saying Messi will win that battle isn't far fetched IMO, perhaps if it was Maldini or Fachetti, true greats, it would be less clear cut but I think it's generally fair to say Messi is the likely winner of his battle, just like Ronaldo is vs Irwin.
But Messi will have more opportunities to do damage, I think Ronaldo will be starved of service. There's danger on the break, but my full backs are no mugs, both knew how to defend first and foremost and will be completely aware not to get caught out.
Plus Messi has more to his game, and is in a set up where he can drift if need be. He's a great playmaker, something Ronaldo isn't.
Also, all this talk of Cole, Salgado is being forgotten about. IMO he is the worst full back in this game and has the least protection, and is up against a very handy David Villa...
Agreed, it's the continued focus from several people on Messi and Cole being overrated which grates a bit when no one acknowledges a threat of similar magnitude exists on the other side of the pitch. Not your fault mind, can't expect you to advertise it. Where the feck is kps anyway?
I said from the beginning, Ronaldo and Vieri on the break are your primary concern. Of course you will be aware, and your players as well, but the beauty of counter-attacking football is there's soooooo much space... both to play the right ball through and to beat your marker when in possession. If Ronaldo were on Thuram's flank I would be a lot more comfortable with it. He isn't.
Re: Messi drifting in/playmaking, as said earlier, it's a valid point.
Which takes us back to handing the trophy over to Fergus now if no one can conceivably stop Messi.
BTW Aldo, you said it would be Fergus applying pressure and kps soaking it up and hitting on the break. How is that so different from the scenario Cole handled Messi in?
It isn't much different, just that I don't think it should be implied that Cole 1 v 1 against Messi would pocket him just because Messi has never scored against Chelsea. It's a different argument if you say Fergus' team can be stopped from scoring by kps sitting back and soaking it all up which I disagree to as long as we are taking all the players at their best.
feck knows, I think he's in India?
Unlucky for him that I'm off work for a couple days and up until all hours because of Ramadan so am here to check the thread all the time, whilst he seems to be missing...
I do think you can have worse full backs than mine to get caught on the counter, no one seems to be bigging up thier attacking play so it figures that they are focused on defending and rather less susceptible to the counter than many other defenders would. If kps main threat is the counter then I'd suggest I'm pretty decently equipped for it when considering my full backs.
Sound pretty good to me, Ronaldo is better with a striker than can drop off on occasion and Messi would like the space that creates too. I won't be worried about Batigol perhaps scoring a few less if I have around 100 goals a season coming from the other two!
As if it would be wise to pair Ronaldo and RVN!
Everything in your post makes me more assured about the front line to be honest, in fact you've probably quelled some of my worries!Your fullbacks are absolutely fine indeed. I'm not picking on Irwin because I think he will do a competent job, there's a greater likelihood of him getting caught upfield than Thuram though (who is also the better defender) and that's why I mentioned it was a shame Ronaldo wasn't on that side. More than Irwin it is Samuel I would worry about. In those occasions when Irwin doesn't recover in time you will be on a tightrope. I expect at least a goal as opposed to at most.
Think Fergus is too defensive. Put Messi central, Müller on the right, Makelele next to Schweinsteiger and pick someone else than Scholes and drop Villa. Villa only plays left because Messi is central and he's not nearly as good there as a striker on the top of his game. He scored on his own against us in the CL final but without service those kind of goals are rare. It's also a much slower team than Messi's Barcelona or Argentina.
Perhaps.
As it stands though, I have a decent lead and won't be over committing at all going forward. Its all well and good one team saying they are playing on the counter but it works better if the other team has asserted that they will be forcing the issue, committing extra men forward and chasing goals. As this moment in time, my team certainly won't be, my fullbacks will remain pretty conservative and not allowing Samuel to be isolated is an essential focus for my team when defending.
When you put it like that it doesn't sound too bad
But it is more a case of that being the result of Messi and Ronaldo than Batistuta... I would prefer quite a few other strikers in this draft for that role in your setup. You have to consider you will be putting teams under an immense amount of pressure so a fox-in-the-box/tap-in master type who can operate in tight areas would be ideal. Batistuta is nothing like that, he will be OK and keep defenders busy but I can't see what he brings that you wouldn't have elsewhere.feck it, what you need is to be able to play Ronaldo and Muller either side of Messi. Try defend against that
Which is where the availability of a Plan B is relevant. You could start the game as you did and control it if you did take the lead (not providing much scope for the counters) and if you fell behind you could always move up one gear and do what Snow suggested above.
When you put it like that it doesn't sound too bad
feck it, what you need is to be able to play Ronaldo and Muller either side of Messi. Try defend against that
That's in my mind too, if I see this out. Messi as a false 9 again! Much will depend on the opposition really...
I agree get Ronaldo and play Muller, too good not to be playing he makes more sense than Villa out on the left. Samuel just stands out as a weak link at this level for me not too bad for this match though. The quality in Fergus' team just makes more sense matched up against Kps though the midfield battle would be great to watch in real life.
Well this ones over. Sorry I disappeared for a bit, had a long day yesterday so couldn't really spend too much time on here. For what it's worth, I still think the spine of my team is much stronger and would be able to absorb any pressure exerted from Fergus' narrow game and hit him on the break.
But well played Fergus. You have to take Ronaldo now.
But well played Fergus. You have to take Ronaldo now.
Müller never played regularly on the left though and he said once in an interview that it's his least favorite position (out of all the attacking ones). I'm sure he could do a great job there and he was very good the few times I saw him in that position, but he's not really two footed, so he won't add width when played on the right and he's not the type of player who will dribble inside. It makes no difference for his movement, though, but on the right he will give you flanks as well, go down the line and pass in or back for shots outside the box, he's incredible versatile when played on the right, he's a bit limited on the left. Villa is the better choice on the left, imo.
I would have loved to see Fergus'son chasing the game and maybe play a front 4 with Müller behind Batistuta and Messi on the right with Villa on the left. Müller's movement would be devastating, imo. He'd drag defenders all over the place with incredible goal scorers coming inside and using the space he creates and he could be the one for the tap ins/easy goals when Batistuta drops deep (like Antohan described in the post).
A front 3 of Ronaldo Messi and Müller looks incredible though, no idea how to defend that. Will be interesting what Fergus'son does with his team and if benching Batistuta really is an option for him.
I know I meant have Muller on the right Ronaldo on the left and then Messi as the false 9, it all depends on him getting Ronaldo. I agree he uses space as well as anybody currently playing and with his stamina and workrate he would keep the left back very busy.
It is an interesting thought. One on hand it is almost impossible for someone to drop Batigol if you take his peak, but on the other you get to play Messi in his best position and have one of the most popular players currently to join him. Can't say one has a significant advantage over the other in theory but both will attract votes from different sets of people which is what will decide which is the wiser move in the context of the draft.
Ah, yes, my bad. I agree with your post then
.Shame you couldn't be around mate.
Wouldn't have made any difference to the result. Those numbers are pretty comprehensive.
Was thinking about strikers but you make a good point there. Muller is an expert poacher. I'd still prefer Ronaldo-Messi-Muller, there's so much right about it.
Voted kps, liked his side better from the outset. I probably wouldn't vote him mostly down to the lack of Plan B, but it won't make any difference now and the gap in the scoreline is unfair.
Surely securing Anto's vote is worth 20 votes?
Been away from this game for a while and think the scoreline is way to big. I really had a hard time with my vote but just went for kps.. So even that I went for personal taste and Kohler, Costacurta, Redondo, Ronaldo secured the vote.
Comeback!
Well played anyway mate, good game.