Nah, I never went into specifics or atleast didn't mean to. Messi is a better player than Cristiano, simple. Even on the right wing I think the more facets he has to his game will be key, his passing is on another level to Cristiano for example contributing much more to the tight midfield battle if need be. I never said he shits on him anyway, I think you're putting words in my mouth.
Redcafe Champions League Draft QF3 - Kps v Fergus
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
Nah, I never went into specifics or atleast didn't mean to. Messi is a better player than Cristiano, simple. Even on the right wing I think the more facets he has to his game will be key, his passing is on another level to Cristiano for example contributing much more to the tight midfield battle if need be. I never said he shits on him anyway, I think you're putting words in my mouth.
Thanks.
Yeah, I do worry about Samuel vs Ronaldo but less so if it's a latter Ronnie we are talking about. Following the 06/07 season we only saw glimpses of Ronaldo constantly and consistently beating two or three men, I don't think it would be as constant a threat as Messi skipping players for fun.
No, you didn't, the above is a fairer/more accurate assessment than how it came across first time around though.
Yeah fair enough.
Off out for a bit now, if the thread is danger of slipping off the home page would someone mind giving it a bump please? Cheers in advance.
Anyway, I've said all I had to say here. kps badly needs to get Cal? to bump into this 
Fair point, it was Eto'o as the striker in the 2008-09 season. Point still stands that Messi doesn't shit on Ronaldo as a right winger, you indicated Messi>>>Cristiano, which the last few years support strongly, but as right wingers it is questionable.
PS: Maldini, of course... I thought about the other LBs and forgot about him as he is being played as a left-sided CB. So yeah, your point then is to stop Messi you need Cole AND Maldini as the LCB, right?
I'd say, Nesta/Maldini, but he's pretty difficult to stop when in the mood!
I agree, but that Villa had the space to attack if he chose to now that space is taken up by Batistuta the only Villa I can compare him to realistically is the one at Barca the roles are most similar, he struggled but hes still scored 20 plus goals his first season, including a beauty against us. I think I would rather Kily if he was meant to play as a traditional winger Messi, Batistuta and even Scholes will get you goals. The natural ability to stretch teams and play crosses in for Batistuta would be more useful but the threat of Villa's goals would keep Kohler and Coastacurta honest.
Both excellent teams but I've voted for Fergus mainly since Makelele is a really good choice to stop Riquelme and without that creativity the trio up front can be starved for major part of the game and Fergus not only has a better attack but also more penetration from midfield with Scholes and Bastian being great passers. While Redondo and Davids is a brilliant pairing, Davids would definitely need to spend a lot of time to help out Cole against Messi and it would be a back to the wall job for the team and despite kps having a better CB pairing, with the amount of pressure Fergus' team will apply with the trio all being extremely clinical in front of goal and both Scholes and Bastian having a good enough shot in them to trouble the goalie from distance, I see them edging it out in the end. Kps has a great chance on the counter and he would probably get one goal through that route but I don't think it will be enough to outscore the opponent.
Messi and Villa aren't wingers, and both prefer to come inside. None of his CMs are capable to provide width. Thus, Fergus' will just crowded the midfield, where the quartet of Redondo-Davids-Kohler-Costacurta are good enough to contain the dangers.
Messi won the ballon dor as a winger, just because he is also magnificent centrally it doesn't mean that he wasnt just brilliant out wide, atleast as good as Ronnie IMO. I thought this was common knowledge.
None of my CMs can provide width?! Bastian played on the RW for much of his career, he and Messi can interchange easily with Thuram covering that whole flank and only Kily trying to trouble him.
None of my CMs can provide width?! Bastian played on the RW for much of his career, he and Messi can interchange easily with Thuram covering that whole flank and only Kily trying to trouble him.
Bastian was wank as RW.
Even if you do believe that ridiculous assertion, Messi wasn't. In fact, he was the best player in the world from that position.
Pretty much but the with the quality of those players specially in tight spaces it would be a mountain to climb if the CBs and DMs keep going narrower hoping they can block everything that comes off the boots of such prolific scorers. That backline would be happier if they can guide Messi and Villa wider, hence further from the goal rather than hoping to stop them after allowing them to cut in.
As for width Bastian actually played as a winger plenty of times in his career and is anyway mobile enough to pull out when the forwards cut in.
Your point is completely valid that these players will not provide a lot of genuine width but I doubt they need a lot of it to stretch the defenders as almost all of them can pull the trigger with ease in tight space or can beat a man also, specially Messi.
True, as an out and out winger he was really annoying and I know a lot of Bayern fans who wanted to see him benched. However, as a CM he's brilliant in reading the game and moving into open space. In 11/12 until he injured his shoulder, we've seen him very often doing exactly that. Lahm played left back and Boateng as right back didn't add a lot in attack, so when Müller was moving inside, Schweinsteiger filled that space and created chances. He doesn't need to create a lot from out wide anyway, because Messi will move inside with the ball at his feet and it's enough to give him defensive cover and another option for an easy pass, Schweinsteiger is perfect for that role, imo.
Where's Müller, Fergus'son
. Every team is better with Müller in it .True, as an out and out winger he was really annoying and I know a lot of Bayern fans who wanted to see him benched. However, as a CM he's brilliant in reading the game and moving into open space. In 11/12 until he injured his shoulder, we've seen him very often doing exactly that. Lahm played left back and Boateng as right back didn't add a lot in attack, so when Müller was moving inside, Schweinsteiger filled that space and created chances. He doesn't need to create a lot from out wide anyway, because Messi will move inside with the ball at his feet and it's enough to give him defensive cover and another option for an easy pass, Schweinsteiger is perfect for that role, imo.
Where's Müller, Fergus'son
I agree with your whole post, I wouldn't be comfortable starting Bastian wide right (that would be Muller), but interchanging with Messi if and when Messi decides he want to come central I think Bastian is perfect, he has the engine and mobility to do it and the tactical nouse too.
Muller still has a big part overall to play for me Balu don't worry
, the tactical flexibility he afforded me has been a god send! I did consider him on the left to keep an extra eye on Ronaldo but decided against it for two reasons: 1. He hasn't played a great deal on the left so would've attracted criticism (see Villa), 2. I thought Salgado was a slight weak link (particularly with no cover at all) and thought people would consider Villa the more appropriate player to take advantage of that. I still have the option of bringing him on for Villa, or Scholes or Bastian too if neccessary. If people weren't happy with Bastian being able to cover Messis right flank when he drifted in then I would maybe swap to Muller, as surely his ability to run out wide won't be questioned.Muller provides an option off the bench if Plan A is not working. Not sure what kps' Plan B is though.
I reckon Fergus started the game with the right setup exerting more midfield control, but there's room for kitchen-sink throwing. Good call that Balu.
I reckon Fergus started the game with the right setup exerting more midfield control, but there's room for kitchen-sink throwing. Good call that Balu.
I should refresh more often.
Can't understand how someone can criticize Villa on the left. Even if he had a better scoring rate while playing in the middle for Valencia, he had a tremendous time on the left particularly for Spain. He played leftwards in Euro 2008 in a lot of occasions where he was able to dribble past players and score some beautiful goals (see his winning goal against Sweden in the second group game where he easily went past two defenders in a very tight space while cutting in from the left and scored a beautiful goal) and then obviously in the World Cup he played most of the time the same role he is playing here with winning them a lot of games from there.
It would have been an issue if he was the biggest goal threat in the team and you could say he would be better in the middle but with Batigol and Messi in the team, he's a great option for the left forward role to twist and turn defenders in tight spaces and would be a great foil to Batigol.
It would have been an issue if he was the biggest goal threat in the team and you could say he would be better in the middle but with Batigol and Messi in the team, he's a great option for the left forward role to twist and turn defenders in tight spaces and would be a great foil to Batigol.
Yeah, I understand why you didn't play Müller. After picking Messi and Scholes, he was always going to sit on the bench. I wouldn't have started him on the left either, Villa is a brilliant choice on the left, I completely agree with AldoRaine's post about him.
Muller still remains a very important member of my squad!
Agree that Aldo explained why Villa is a good choice much better than I have done.
Which way do you see this one going then?
Again, I completely agree with AldoRaine's post (#48). Couldn't have said it better.
Ah, good to hear, indeed that's a brilliant post from Aldo, says a lot of what I'v been trying to.
Do cast your vote please mate, these games can turn around pretty quickly
Just going to give this a gentle bump so it doesn't fall off the home page.
A few people that always seem to vote in these threads, haven't done so yet, so hopefully they see the thread and make a choice.
A few people that always seem to vote in these threads, haven't done so yet, so hopefully they see the thread and make a choice.
It really cuts through to the bone. That's exactly how I see the game played out, one side putting all the pressure and the other soaking up and playing on the counter. The one lingering question in my mind is the assertion kps would only score the one goal, make that two and I can see him nicking it.
Pretty good post but the bit in bold is unlikely in reality surely. I know its Messi but no better man than Cole to mark him. I don't really see why you'd have Davids removed too often from the engine room. It would be all about trying to win the midfield battle, and to reduce the amount of ball getting to him. Scholes and Schweinsteiger will be the supply so that will be Davids/Redondo's main job without the ball.
Went for Kps. Davids and Redondo is an extraordinary midfield pairing, and the spine is just that wee bit stronger. There's very little in it (because Fergus'son also has a strong outfit) so surprised at the size of the gap that has opened up.
I'll probably end up going with kps, if only to make the scoreline more reasonable.
The gap is quite surprising indeed. Reckon it is largely down to Bati>Vieri, Villa>KilyWho?, Kohler-Costacurta not getting the credit they deserve and Redondo not being rated as highly as he should (particularly relative to the Ginger Prince!).
It's a very tight game by all accounts, a 2-1 either way IMO.
Fergus'son has argued his case infinitely better though, must be said.
That's the way I see it as well.
Can Fergus pick Kohler or Ronaldo if he goes through?
Yep, he's got plenty of choices. Ronaldo for Villa is one clear choice, but he can also go for Redondo instead of Makelele.
If its a vote to make it more respectable/realistic then please wait til your last oppurtunity if possible, we know how these things can change overnight and sometimes those little 'sympathy' votes can make all the difference! There's already one or two that have indicated that they prefer my team but haven't voted (perhaps they would've if I needed the votes a bit more?).
I agree its a close game, but I also believe I have the stronger side. It probably would be a goal or two that decides it but that shouldn't neccessarily be represented by a close score line. If people think one team will win, even by a small margin then they still vote for that team (instead of voting for the opposition to make the scoreline closer) IMO.
Yeah, there's the possibility of both too as there's been some confusion about one or two rules.
If I do end up winning, I simply can't turn down Ronaldo. If we get me more pick then it would be between Kohler and Redondo for me, would love latter but based on feedback the former might be best.
you still want the double pick change?The backlash if you don't pick Ronaldo would be huge. I do think Samuel will cost you dearly though. There's also the Batistuta partnership side of things. I've said before I don't like him up there solo one bit. I can see how Villa almost becomes his strike partner, once you bring on Ronaldo I reckon he gets more isolated.
That said, the average (i.e. youngish) voter probably won't rate Kohler as highly as many of us do. Nor is Kohler the ideal partner for Ayala TBH.
The semifinal draw should make it a lot clearer.
I was closer to voting kps on merit earlier on but decided to sit it out. I'm not seeing much from kps argument-wise and Balu did raise Muller being an option: I rate the fact you have a plan B there, an important consideration in such a tight game.
I never give sympathy votes unless it is close to full time and it's done and dusted, no worries.
I think Ronaldo should be your man. Some voters will go for you on the basis of a cock-out three of Messi, Ronaldo and Batistuta alone.
The backlash if you don't pick Ronaldo would be huge. I do think Samuel will cost you dearly though. There's also the Batistuta partnership side of things. I've said before I don't like him up there solo one bit. I can see how Villa almost becomes his strike partner, once you bring on Ronaldo I reckon he gets more isolated.
That said, the average (i.e. youngish) voter probably won't rate Kohler as highly as many of us do. Nor is Kohler the ideal partner for Ayala TBH.
The semifinal draw should make it a lot clearer.
I don't mind either way to be honest but Theons suggesting that it may be the best way to appease Edogen as he fell victim to the confusion? Anyway, not worried about that just yet, need to win this.
Messi and Ronaldo with Batigol will be brilliant, Ronaldo is as capable of getting into the box as Villa, as is Messi. Astonished you think otherwise but let save that discussion for if and when the situation arises, I'll just be happy to have that talent at my disposal and be in the semis!
Do you not think he could play the lone striker role? He has the 'presence' for it.
Nice one mate.
Yeah, can't see past him to be honest. It's a ridiculous front line.
How 'lone' can he be with Cristiano and Messi there?!
He never did though. I don't see him as a solo lead the line striker at all. I remember when I first noticed him he was actually an attacking midfielder/mediapunta at Boca. He gradually became a striker but always as part of a pair. If you actually look at his overall play you will find him very often involved in building up play from deep (well, the hole, not exactly deep) and if you take away his free kicks and long rangers his tally as an out and out striker is not that impressive. I'm not saying he would be useless, just that I see him as the more rounded footballer in a strike partnership. With Messi and Ronaldo either side I would rate RvN much higher.