Redcafe Champions League Draft Final! - Theon v Gio

Who will win based on players in their prime, team tactics, balance & bench strength?

  • Total voters
    48
  • Poll closed .
Jiggs'Hamstring said:
I probably would have, yeah. It would give you more options and dynamism. 4-3-2-1 is valid (though I'm not convinced the 2007 Milan side was a particularly strong one, even though it won the CL) but your midfield has Pirlo, De Rossi, Gattuso and Xavi. No one needs all four of those. You lack width and people to get beyond the strikers, IMO, which means Gio's defence doesn't get stretched anywhere near as much as it might.
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Ayee that Milan side wasn't the best, it was a last final push by an amazing side that was well past its peak - Maldini, Seedorf, Gattuso, Cafu etc

On the width I disagree because of Cafu and Maldini, the whole purpose of De Rossi/Gattuso is to be solid enough for when those two go charging up the pitch like they did their entire career.

Cafu needs no argument surely, he's the best attacking wingback of all time - he guarantees width in sides as narrow as this

Maldini gets more credit for his defending because he was so much better than anyone else, but he did the exact same role bombing up the left channel for Milan and Italy

 
Jiggs'Hamstring said:
I probably would have, yeah. It would give you more options and dynamism.
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On the Shevchenko point I agree, I was going to go for him and judging by feedback I got even before the game it would have been the better option. But I just couldn't get this Ronaldo idea out my head!

This video is the one that tipped me into choosing Xavi, IMO it would work fine and it would just be too much creativity and through balls for Ronaldo not to score. But Sheva does seem to be the consensus better option

 
Let's not forget what Zanetti can offer horsing up the wing, and will do with the space he has to exploit:

 
The tactical change hasn't gone down well with the fans - so its Xavi off and Shevchenko on

*Xavi shakes his head as he leaves the field, even he knew that Sheva should have started!

The striker is absolutely raring to get on the pitch and link up with his AC Milan team mates, but is it too late?


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Isotope said:
Why not

Gatusso​
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Pirlo - Xavi - Iniesta​
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I like it the way he has it now, the loss of Xavi is compensated for in the build up with Ronaldos extra licence to drop deep and now the type of threat posed by his main attackers will cause more problems to Rio and Vidic, I can't see them not conceding from now.
 
Ronaldo and Cafu threatening Vidic and Zambrotta now too. Nedved would help sure things up if that's something gio is considering, perhaps even move Rivaldo central to give Pirlo a more direct threat against him.
 
De Rossi needs to play here, I wanted Xavi and Iniesta in the team but it was never a real option to drop one of the DM's

I have Maldini and Cafu playing an attacking game and I need De Rossi and Gattuso to make it solid enough for them to do that, as well as doubling up on Rivaldo/Ronaldinho when they inevitably cut inside - which they will do all game
 
Fergus' son said:
Ronaldo and Cafu threatening Vidic and Zambrotta now too. Nedved would help sure things up if that's something gio is considering, perhaps even move Rivaldo central to give Pirlo a more direct threat against him.
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This is how I had anticipated Theon setting up so, with a small lead, there is no need to change things around yet. I had thought about Rivaldo on Pirlo, but at the moment the fundamentals stay the same whether it's 4-3-2-1 or 4-4-2 diamond: stay solid through the centre, take advantage of the space on the flanks.
 
Theon said:
Come on, it's quite blatant that you are underrating my team. All Rio has to concern himself with is Ronaldo according to you when Iniesta/Xavi and Pirlo are playing.

As good as the likes of Fabregas is at passing those three are on a different level
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Iniesta+Xavi+Pirlo = about as much goal threat as Rivaldo provides all by himself, and I'm being generous. You have a singular goal threat in Ronaldo. Awesome striker, but a crap gameplan too dependent on his performance and that of those looking after him.

Since it was brought up earlier, Ronaldo didn't score in the first leg of that knockout, did he? It was Raúl and Figo if memory serves me right. He did get three against a non-prime Rio alongside Wes Brown, in an open game where we needed to make up a two goal difference. And the moment he scored the second we were also out on away goals. Perfect scenario for Ronaldo. Where's the space here? Where are Figo and Raúl? Not to mention Zidane, since you do have Iniesta. These are not his ideal conditions, it is not underrating anyone, it is staring you right in the face, and basing an entire gameplan on Ronaldo performing to his very best in an alien environment is foolish.

I've been full of praise for your team throughout the competition, you just had a massive brainfart here. Gio hasn't and I can't see much to pick on as far as his team is concerned. Are all players in their favoured position? No. Do I see it working and delivering his gameplan? Yes.

I doubt there is a single person out there that votes based on my posts, people vote based on what they are seeing themselves. Not sure when you changed your tactics but when I pointed these things out you were level and still had the opportunity to do something about it, now it looks way beyond your reach, particularly when people would necessarily have to consider you are trying to get back into the game. That's not the best side to get yourself back into a game, better than the one that started though.

It's a real shame, I said before the game that you had a side that could hold its own against any previous winners, including the all-time side. Then you just went and screwed it all up on a muppetty whim.
 
Thought this was a 48 hour poll, 7 vote gap could have been overcome by then, it's a lot tougher for that to happen by tomorrow afternoon.
 
Anto, you should do the team of the tournament etc etc when you get a chance.
 
antohan said:
Iniesta+Xavi+Pirlo = about as much goal threat as Rivaldo provides all by himself, and I'm being generous.
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My point wasn't goal threat, it's just that they are dangerous players in terms of assists so Rio needs to concern himself with that - so he is not concerning himself just with Ronaldo.

Just look at Iniesta, does he score a lot of goals? No. Would Rio be preoccupied with his dribbling and passing? Yes, of course he would.

That was my point, when you have Xavi/Pirlo/Iniesta feeding short through balls or long passes through the defence then that is occupying the centre backs

Not that it even matters because it's a different set up now with Sheva on.
 
This was a tough one to decide because of the amazing qualities found in both teams. Theon’s initial side had a very strong back-line, a dynamic midfield core supporting arguably one of the best strikers of all time. Gio’s team meanwhile may have had a slight change in shape from prior rounds with the introduction of Messi but I think the subsequent transformation only added a unique dimension to the attack and didn’t considerably weaken it by the exclusion of Romario and Nedved. The use of a three man midfield was essential to counter the overwhelming control that Theon’s team may have had over the match through a compact setup favoring ball possession. Nonetheless, I still had reservations of whether Fabregas could play the role of a supremely gifted midfield facilitator to the requisite degree needed for this game, facing particularly formidable opposition.

My greatest concern with Theon’s team was the personnel used in midfield and the potential isolation that Ronaldo might face playing as a lone striker against the Vidic – Ferdinand center back pairing. I thought Xavi’s inclusion in the advanced midfield position was the glaring flaw in the original formation. I appreciate the fact that Theon took steps to rectify that problem. Although Shevchenko coming into the game could certainly improve the team’s goal scoring threat, I don’t think his introduction will necessarily lead to a substantial increase in competitiveness. I would have preferred for the initial 4-3-2-1 formation to remain, with the inclusion of a better attacking midfielder for Xavi (e.g. Kaka 05-07) with the capacity to not only be mobile enough to operate within an extensive portion of the pitch but also possess the ability to actively contribute to the attack by posing a genuine goal scoring threat. In this way the hypothetical team could maintain the compactness needed to nullify Gio’s more potent attacking threat without sacrificing the potential for creating goal scoring opportunities of its own. Unfortunately, since such a player isn’t available in Theon’s squad, the only other viable alternative is the current narrow formation requiring a much more demanding effort from the full backs to actively contribute to the attack.

Consequently, since I expect Maldini and Cafu to be significantly preoccupied in dealing with Gio’s threats on the flanks, this may lead to a reduced effectiveness in providing much needed width, which will ultimately impact the team's attacking prowess negatively. In addition, although the midfield quartet of Pirlo-Gattuso-De Rossi and Iniesta might be able to hinder Gio’s capacity to successfully transition to attack, I don’t think that will necessarily be enough to stop Messi and Ronaldinho from creating ample goal scoring opportunities. So, despite my great admiration for Theon’s team, I’m afraid I have to vote for Gio on the basis of his attack’s crucial edge in its potential to decide this match.
 
Fergus' son said:
Anto, you should do the team of the tournament etc etc when you get a chance.
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That would be a difficult task, particularly given the different formations used. Just look at the final: 4-3-3 vs. diamond... Will have a stab though, sure.
 
Theon said:
My point wasn't goal threat, it's just that they are dangerous players in terms of assists so Rio needs to concern himself with that - so he is not concerning himself just with Ronaldo.

Just look at Iniesta, does he score a lot of goals? No. Would Rio be preoccupied with his dribbling and passing? Yes, of course he would.

That was my point, when you have Xavi/Pirlo/Iniesta feeding short through balls or long passes through the defence then that is occupying the centre backs

Not that it even matters because it's a different set up now with Sheva on.
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He is equally preoccupied now. Your original formation added one more passer to worry about, your current one has one more goalscorer. I know which Rio would rather be facing.

gamma1 said:
Although Shevchenko coming into the game could certainly improve the team’s goal scoring threat, I don’t think his introduction will necessarily lead to a substantial increase in competitiveness. I would have preferred for the initial 4-3-2-1 formation to remain, with the inclusion of a better attacking midfielder for Xavi (e.g. Kaka 05-07) with the capacity to not only be mobile enough to operate within an extensive portion of the pitch but also possess the ability to actively contribute to the attack by posing a genuine goal scoring threat. In this way the hypothetical team could maintain the compactness needed to nullify Gio’s more potent attacking threat without sacrificing the potential for creating goal scoring opportunities of its own. Unfortunately, since such a player isn’t available in Theon’s squad, the only other viable alternative is the current narrow formation requiring a much more demanding effort from the full backs to actively contribute to the attack.
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Had a bit of a discussion with Theon on this earlier when he had the chance to get Kaká. At the time I thought Sheva had been a massive mistake, but as the draft went on I've kept having second thoughts. That was primarily due to concerns over reduced goal threat and Ronaldo being left to do it all himself. Theon sold me Sheva being a better option than Kaká and then I find no Sheva and Xavi playing where Kaká would have been... :rolleyes:
 
Theon's midfield is overkill for me. Setting yourself up to have only one player as main goal scorer for you is very risky even if that player is Ron (And I rate him very highly)
 
Voted for Theon based on current line-up
Shevchenko is essential to his team's attacking game - his movement, pace and goalscoring threat will stretch defenses and create space for Ronaldo
Sorry Gio
 
gamma1 said:
Although Shevchenko coming into the game could certainly improve the team’s goal scoring threat, I don’t think his introduction will necessarily lead to a substantial increase in competitiveness. I would have preferred for the initial 4-3-2-1 formation to remain, with the inclusion of a better attacking midfielder for Xavi (e.g. Kaka 05-07) with the capacity to not only be mobile enough to operate within an extensive portion of the pitch but also possess the ability to actively contribute to the attack by posing a genuine goal scoring threat. In this way the hypothetical team could maintain the compactness needed to nullify Gio’s more potent attacking threat without sacrificing the potential for creating goal scoring opportunities of its own. Unfortunately, since such a player isn’t available in Theon’s squad, the only other viable alternative is the current narrow formation requiring a much more demanding effort from the full backs to actively contribute to the attack.
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Great post. When seeing Theon's Christmas tree formation I half-expected Kaka to be operating in the inside-right position where Xavi was (not fully sure whether Theon had picked him up earlier in the draft): it looked like his natural role.
 
Went for Gio in the end. Think he's got too many matchwinners to keep quiet although i'm disappointed Romario hasnt made it on to the pitch. Think Theons side could be very reliant on the fullbacks to attack and it'll be a tough job for them to do all game given who they have to mark. Zanetti should have an easier job bombing forward for Gio and i think he could have a strong say in this game also.

Would fancy Ronaldo to get 1 in this, but not sure i see him running riot against a prime Ferdinand, as good a defender as i've seen live. Glad that Theon brought Shevchenko on but i think it may have been too late to claw this one back.

2-1 Gio
 
Zanetti will get forward less than Cafu and Maldini IMO - I have far more cover with Pirlo/Gattuso/De Rossi who are all holding players which only Mauro is for Gio

The whole reason for the double protection of De Rossi and Gattuso is so Cafu/Maldini can break forward

A large part of Shevchenko's game was his constant movement and exploitation of space, he always pulled wide for Milan leaving Inzaghi/Crespo in the middle, so if Zanetti vacates that space its the exact thing Shev will thrive off
 
5 votes in it... Gonna give it one last shot!

1) I've got the better keeper in Neuer vs Taffarel -

2) The defence is absolutely superb - Maldini, Cafu and Nesta are all amongst the best of all time in their positions. In contrast Gio only has one in Zanetti who achieved that status

3) The midfield of Gattuso/Pirlo/De Rossi is proven at the highest level, they have played with each other and won the Champions League, Serie A and the World Cup

4) Iniesta is playing in his ultimate role here, as a free player drifting across the front line and linking up with the two strikers - he is the best attacking midfielder since Zinedine Zidane

5) Shevchenko/Ronaldo - Sheva is playing the exact role that made him world class and the best striker in Europe during the early 00's. He won the Ballon d'Or and came in the Top three on three occassions playing as the deeper forward in a diamond system

Sheva's rankings in the European Player of the Year during his time in the Milan diamond system
  • 1999 – 3rd
  • 2000 – 3rd
  • 2001 – 8th
  • 2003 – 4th
  • 2004 – 1st
  • 2005 – 5th
Then you have Ronaldo - his peak in 1996-1998 is quite possibly the best any striker has ever produced. He was unplayable.

Ronaldo dribbles - a nightmare for Vidic

 
Theon said:
5 votes in it... Gonna give it one last shot!

1) I've got the better keeper in Neuer vs Taffarel
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Debateable. Neuer's probably the best of a poor bunch of keepers at the moment, whereas Taffarel competed alongside Schmeichel, Dasayev, Zenga, Kopke, Kahn, Peruzzi, Pagliuca, Seaman and others of considerable quality. There's also the issue of longevity: Taffarel has over 100 caps in a trophy-laden career with Brazil, playing key, match-winning roles in pretty much every major tournament between 1988 and 1998.
2) The defence is absolutely superb - Maldini, Cafu and Nesta are all amongst the best of all time in their positions. In contrast Gio only has one in Zanetti who achieved that status
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Ferdinand belongs in that top bracket. He's the best English defender of all time. Vidic doesn't but he's among the top two or three combative defenders in this draft who you'd want to partner a Nesta or Ferdinand.
 
Cutch said:
Went for Gio in the end. Think he's got too many matchwinners to keep quiet although i'm disappointed Romario hasnt made it on to the pitch. Think Theons side could be very reliant on the fullbacks to attack and it'll be a tough job for them to do all game given who they have to mark. Zanetti should have an easier job bombing forward for Gio and i think he could have a strong say in this game also.

Would fancy Ronaldo to get 1 in this, but not sure i see him running riot against a prime Ferdinand, as good a defender as i've seen live. Glad that Theon brought Shevchenko on but i think it may have been too late to claw this one back.

2-1 Gio
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Just for you Cutch, Romario comes on to stretch the play in the closing minutes with Theon playing high and pushing forward. Fabregas off. Vieira drops off alongside Mauro Silva to anchor the midfield and shut off the options for Iniesta and Pirlo.

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Gio said:
Ferdinand belongs in that top bracket. He's the best English defender of all time.
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He's probably not even that, Bobby Moore is surely better than Rio

As a United fan I love Ferdinand and think he is exceptional, but he is not as good as Nesta. There isn't one element of Rio's game that matches up to Nesta, whereas the Italian was a far better marker than Rio ever was IMO.
 
Theon said:
He's probably not even that, Bobby Moore is surely better than Rio

As a United fan I love Ferdinand and think he is exceptional, but he is not as good as Nesta. There isn't one element of Rio's game that matches up to Nesta, whereas the Italian was a far better marker than Rio ever was IMO.
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I had Ferdinand throughout the all-time one and never ever did anyone even remotely question his ability to perform in that company. Rightly so.
 
Theon said:
He's probably not even that, Bobby Moore is surely better than Rio

As a United fan I love Ferdinand and think he is exceptional, but he is not as good as Nesta. There isn't one element of Rio's game that matches up to Nesta, whereas the Italian was a far better marker than Rio ever was IMO.
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Not that he wasn't a classy operator, but I think Moore gets romanticised a lot.
 
Rio's definitely a level below Nesta but the fact he's playing alongside his bud Vidic who's an immense CB in himself nevermind the fact that they made one of the best CB pairs is a huge advantage for him. Surely the better CB pair is Rio-Vidic here.
 
antohan said:
I had Ferdinand throughout the all-time one and never ever did anyone even remotely question his ability to perform in that company. Rightly so.
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What are you talking about?

He isn't as good as Nesta, make a case for it if you think he is.
 
Ah well done Gio!

I think you drafted the best out of anybody in the original game so you're a worthy winner :)

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Gio said:
Not that he wasn't a classy operator, but I think Moore gets romanticised a lot.
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I also have a romantic view and my grandfather raved about him (he was present at more WC than any of us could ever wish for). Based on the evidence though, I reckon the only thing Moore has on Rio is a picture holding the World Cup.
 
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