They didn't but again I cannot see them "stopping" Ronaldo from scoring. Would that be enough to win Theon the game, I don't know. But Ronaldo will score in this game, no two ways in my mind.
Redcafe Champions League Draft Final! - Theon v Gio
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
They didn't but again I cannot see them "stopping" Ronaldo from scoring. Would that be enough to win Theon the game, I don't know. But Ronaldo will score in this game, no two ways in my mind.
Not sure if i like Theons changes. Assumed that Nesta would come in alongside Maldini, and that Shevchenko, one of his few real attacking outlets would remain. It looks very negative currently, will keep the ball well but moves will breakdown further upfield with not enough happening on the wings and too congested through the middle. Its relying too much on Ronaldo, who could easily be frustrated by a peak Ferdinand inparticular.
That is spot on and even though it's my team I never really thought of that.
The Barca model when it breaks down has no real plan B it's just tika takka tika takka but Pirlo brings something completely different to the table.
Unlike Xavi/Iniesta who will be looking to get close to that 18 yard line and slip a clever through ball into Ronaldo, Pirlo is the best long passer in the draft and he brings a whole new dimension to a Barca based attack
If a Gio attack breaks down or Maldini wins the ball from Ronaldinho then Pirlo can feed through Ronaldo/Iniesta in one pass which is something you rarely see Barcelona do
So basically, you gave up on that flank from the off, just play to neutralise. Is that the plan for Cafú on Rivaldo as well?
Nonsense, Rio would be the man to try keep Ronaldo in his pocket, not Vidic. If you had Shevchenko then Rio would be tied up with him and that matcup can be argued, but not as it stands, which is the entire point.
Rio-Vidic vs. Ronaldo
or
Silva-Nesta vs. Messi, while also worrying about Ronnie/Rivaldo losing their man either side.
You are not giving Gio's defence much to think about.
Theon's team is overkill in midfield. One of Xavi or Pirlo should be replaced; as it is, Gio's team has better balance.
It still boils down to keeping tabs on Ronaldo. Set pieces could tilt either way, tbh, which is where random luck comes into play. That's why I focus on how you come back from random luck hitting you and Gio has more comeback-ability about him.
In real life you would probably start with what Gio started, you can keep decent control and win the game that way. If it's not going well, there's always time to throw the kitchen sink if needed
It's a much more enticing kitchen sink as well. Theon bringing on Shevchenko would be a bit meh in comparison.
Poitn being, either side could fall behind in this game, but Gio has more room for clawing that back convincingly, which has to count for something. How many times has Barca been accused of lackign a Plan B if their (very effective) possession plan A isn't working?
I get what you're saying but people are voting on what they are seeing now. Many would have seen that front 4 (the 1 i posted) and think that no way can that be beaten. I think it works too, Romario as a genuine no.9 finding space from defenders preoccupied with Messi and co. Prefer Ronaldinho and Rivaldo where i've shown them also.
I rate Rio very highly but I think he'd struggle more against a peak Ronaldo than the other way, especially as Rio has always had a momentary lapse of concentration as an aspect of his game. Plus you have to factor that having Gattuso happy to look after Rivaldo, allows Cafu to push up when Theon is dominating, giving him some width. Not to mention that it's not like Gio has the most hardwowrking team. If Gio's players don't press well, they can really pass there way up the pitch and get in.
I said before whenever I see Ronaldo I automatically assume he will score. However, bar some tricky play from Iniesta there's absolutely nothign there to draw defenders out of position or create major gaps for Ronaldo to exploit. If there's ever an uphill battle that you can present him with, this is it. I presume since Theon is all about possession Gio is relatively deep and hitting on the break. It really isn't the ideal setting for Ronaldo to thrive.
What? I didn't give up on that flank, it's just pretty clear that Ronaldinho/Zanetti would have destroyed Candela and that it would be mental going in like that.
Rio will not keep Ronaldo in his pocket, christ.
If I said Nesta would keep Messi in his pocket you would say that was bollocks but he has a better chance of doing that than Rio does Ronaldo.
True, but then look at spain over these last few years. They've not needed much width, and often haven't had a proper striker, certainly not one in Ronaldo's class. I think when you can be that dominant on the ball, and have 2 of the best short range passers and one of the best long range passers of all time, you've got a fair few opportunities to get in. Iniesta isn't a big goal scorer but he does have form scoring when it matters.
But that is exactly the type of game that Messi isn't suited to.
He scored a goal a game playing in a Barca team that permanently camps outside the oppositions 18 yard box. Half his goals are just picking it up, dribbling through 10 yards and knocking it past the keeper.
Here he is playing some sort of counter attacking style that couldn't be further from his Barcelona career.. Yet you don't mention that.
Vote winning vs. real-life tactics, that's an interest debate. I tend to favour when people go for what would work and take popularity risks in the process. I agree it's a great side and I would prefer watching yours to the one currently on the pitch. I rate Romario higher than most on here having suffered the bastard in international competitions (it was his goal winning the 1989 Copa Amèrcia final and his goals leaving us out of WC94'!). Huge respect for him. That said, against Theon's side the current side is the correct starting one I believe.
In a nutshell this was my thinking
I took a risk with no Shevchenko but this is Ronaldo being supplied by Xavi/Iniesta and Pirlo we're talking about - it just guarantees that he will score.
Yeah that's an issue there but then considering this is Xavi-Iniesta is at their best, not some game where their plan A failed but actually worked to perfection, cannot see Ronaldo missing too many chances given to him. As someone said a Pirlo lob behind Vidic and next second you would have the GK picking the ball out of the net. Ronaldo did put 3 past Rio in that CL game.
But yeah completely agree that this aint the perfect setting for him.
Yeah, I find them odd too. Way too much reliance on Ronaldo (not making use of his build up play either), not enough players to peel out onto the wings so there's a huge reliance on the fullbacks to do so when they have individual battles to address first, and an extra body in midfield which wasn't needed.
Exactly, Shev would've given Gios defence so many more problems, he could work the channels, link up with Ronaldo etc, keep the fullbacks a bit more occupied. As it is I think Gios defence is fairly happy, most of Theons threat is coming in the centre where gio added an extra body in Fabregas so it worked out as well as it could've for them.
Big tactical blunder not starting Shev IMO.
Yeah think there's a good chance of that. Plus if his wide attackers don't get back you can push up Cafu with Gattuso tucking in if you need to add some width.
I said TRY keep him in his pocket. Every defender in the planet would be up shit creek trying to do it, but Rio is as good as any to TRY. With Nemanja's help.
Same holds at the other end with Nesta and Thiago vs. Messi, the difference being that there are more threats to keep their minds and positioning occupied.
Spain never played a team with as much quality as Gios team.
This is a really important point that I disagree with
I agree Rio doesn't have another goalscorer to contend himself with, but he DOES have Xavi/Iniesta/Pirlo through balls to contend with - in contrast Nesta doesn't have that.
I expect this team to have 60-65% possession and virtually whenever Pirlo/Xavi/Iniesta are on the ball there is a huge threat in behind for Rio to concern himself with. It isnt simply that he has to stand next to Ronaldo because it doesn't work like that, he needs to intercept sly through balls from Xavi, tackle dribbling runs from Iniesta or cut out long passes over the top from Pirlo
Gio's midfield doesn't provide that constant threat
No but that's the point, his team has a range of passers, it isn't reliant on short passes as it has Pirlo, and it has plenty of power in Gattuso and De Rossi, who can match Viera for power and help double up on Dinho and Rivaldo, who will be coming inside. It's gonna be so compact in there, I just think Theon's edge in the passing would pay off.
Both sides will be on the pitch at some point in the game. Many wont be playing this out as a 90minute game over 48hrs, they'll be voting on what they see now, (21 have already done) so may aswell get the most eyecatching and I consider the best on the pitch now
Messi isn't suited to counter attack? What isn't suited? his pace? His dribbling? Haven't you seen him go off on one starting deep in midfield?
I take your point the setup is not the one he has scored for fun in, but he is well suited to the sort of counter moves Gio could put together through him/Ronnie/Rivaldo. That's exactly the reason Romario isn't starting, he would likely stay up there waiting to play off the shoulder once the other two play him through, while Messi would go deep and build up along with them. I don't see how Messi cannot thrive in space, it's an odd argument to make it if that is what you are saying.
On the other hand, prime Ronaldo played in sides which played open end-to-end football. The guy who can get the best out of Ronaldo in your side is Pirlo (and you say above you hadn't thought about that, ????). I would play Sheva instead of Xavi and deliberately invite more pressure to make the space for those two to rip a new one into Gio.
I think we are using different definitions. Players in their prime doesn't mean the way they played works to perfection in the game at hand, just that they would do things as they did them in their prime. Do they work here? Possibly. I can see a goal, two tops, but no more.
The bolded part is what I am saying for Messi - Messi playing in a Barca side that plays tika takka, absolutely not a counter attacking side that Gio is employing here.
I am not saying he can't do it, of course he can, but Ronaldo can likewise play on a team that dominates the ball - he did for Brazil and in his later years at Madrid
Niether player is playing in a system that they excelled at in their primes, so you just mentioning Ronaldo was harsh IMO - Messi is clearly not in his peak role.
Ronnie, Rivaldo and Fabregas can play a mean through ball. Messi himself could do it for the others. You are massively overrating your men or underrating the oppo, not sure which.
My point is a player who thrived in space not having it is a lot more damaging than a player who is used to his side having the most possession playing on the counter. Messi started out as a right winger, he will have no problem with his side seeing less of the ball and starting runs from midfield. Ronaldo being the singluar goalscoring threat against a deep defending outstanding defensive pair is a much bigger issue, that's why I mention that.
If we are going to get picky neither Xavi nor Iniesta ever played in a midfield set up like that. It's not that I'm holding against them, it's the fact there is no one but Ronaldo to play through.
Come on, it's quite blatant that you are underrating my team. All Rio has to concern himself with is Ronaldo according to you when Iniesta/Xavi and Pirlo are playing.
As good as the likes of Fabregas is at passing those three are on a different level
And Ronaldinho didn't play on the right wing, and Rivaldo was better in the middle etc.
Again, you don't mention that though.
Indeed, all four are brilliant passers, strange to try and criticise them for that in particular. Fabregas was an assist machine for Arsenal!
Ronaldo could create too, problem is that he doesn't have another goal threat or anyone that can break beyond him to utilise this, whereas his counterpart Messi has better options to play with.
Still would like to see Nedved involved somehow..
Ferdinand and Vidic in the Champions League then - just 4 goals conceded in 6 group matches, then 5 clean sheets in 7 knockout matches. Either way they're completely proven and, as a defensive partnership, the most successful on the park. Together they're dealing with one striker and, in the absence of any wide threat, have support from Zanetti and Zambrotta who, as I said in the OP, are defending narrowly. There's no way through.
Again, what were the names they faced in that run? Did they compare with Ronaldo at any point? I'm not even criticizing that CB partnership here, I would hold this opinion no matter what partnership you put out. Nesta, Thuram, Cannvaro etc etc have come and tried to deal with Ronaldo and most times its the Brazilian who has come on top. With Theon's midfield, you cannot even argue against him scoring, not a slight on your defense just how good Ronaldo basically is.
I see the point you are making. However, what I would highlight is the one area where Fabregas's passing does stand up to those three is in his through-balls: it was precisely that ability that saw him rated in that sort of company at Arsenal. Moreover, the vision and passing execution of Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and Messi is exceptional and it is their ability to deliver an eye-of-the-needle ball from 40-50 yards that means we match up in terms of passing threat.
- Ronaldinho through-ball v Milan in 2005/06 CL Semi-Final
- Rivaldo through-ball v Inter in 2002/03 Serie A Milan derby (this one in particular I can see happening given the freedom our full-backs will have to overlap)
- Messi through-ball v Real Madrid in 2010/11 Classico
Came in here fully expecting to vote for Theon, but he's just crowbarred a load of central midfielders into his side. It lacks dynamism. Gio has weaker links, but I I'm far more keen on his balance and system. It's got to be Gio for me.
I don't think any of your passers match up to Iniesta/Xavi/Pirlo, that isn't even a criticism because those three are arguably the greatest of all time when it comes to passing and their entire game is based around that.
Iniesta and Xavi are in a league of their own when it comes to short passes and clever through balls, and then Pirlo is the best at raking 40 yarders. Scholes probably has a claim to be on the same level of Pirlo when it comes to that but not Fabregas.
On the bolded - I always had your fullbacks down as overlapping which is why I put in both De Rossi/Gattuso, but before you said you were keeping them back and defending narrow meaning that Ronaldo has no space.
If your fullbacks do keep bombing forward I can't see them having much success but more importantly that is tailor made for Pirlo to counter on with a pass to Ronaldo/Iniesta
Would you have seen the game differently if it was Shevchenko instead of Xavi?
On the system point - 4-3-2-1 is a valid system so there is nothing majorly wrong there IMO
AC Milan won the Champions League in 2007 with it and also possibly in 2003 when Rivaldo was there, France won the world cup in 1998 playing it etc.
I think Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets are the greatest at short give-and-go football. Longer passing I'd have Scholes, Pirlo, Veron and Rivaldo around the same level, probably throw Xavi in there as well to be honest. Ronaldinho and Messi are also fantastic and in a counter-attacking set-up have more space to hit.
In terms of the full-backs, it's as I said in the OP where's it's sensible cover. So when Zanetti piles forward, Zambrotta tucks in. Basic full-back play really.
I probably would have, yeah. It would give you more options and dynamism. 4-3-2-1 is valid (though I'm not convinced the 2007 Milan side was a particularly strong one, even though it won the CL) but your midfield has Pirlo, De Rossi, Gattuso and Xavi. No one needs all four of those. You lack width and people to get beyond the strikers, IMO, which means Gio's defence doesn't get stretched anywhere near as much as it might.
Went for Gio - overkill in midfield for Theon
interesting that this final has no proper wingers in it at all
interesting that this final has no proper wingers in it at all