Rebuilding Could See Exits...But Who?

clear SAF mind games to give the current lot a kick up the arse. Trouble is, they've heard ever angle he can ever come up with by now. Improvement has to come from within individuals. They look like a team that's too quick to blame each other rather than take responsibility for their own form :(
 
Originally posted by RedforLife:
<strong>The possibilities imo would be Veron, Beckham and Giggs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And then you also have to replace the player you've sold.
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
I said desired by the fans, which he was, cos on all the united websites he was, and in the polls on players most wanted. Just cos you didn't doesn't mean you were in the majority. Regarding who the manager wanted, of course that is always speculation, but it was one of the stronger speculative links.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Duff would be a huge player for United! One of the best signings SAF could make. He is only going to get better.
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
I said desired by the fans, which he was, cos on all the united websites he was, and in the polls on players most wanted. Just cos you didn't doesn't mean you were in the majority. Regarding who the manager wanted, of course that is always speculation, but it was one of the stronger speculative links.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm hardly trying to imply that my view is the one of the majority or the one that counts Neil, no need to get shirty. Simply, my issue is that a strong link created by the media and then picked up upon by a few people on a forum doesn't really mean a great deal.
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

I'm hardly trying to imply that my view is the one of the majority or the one that counts Neil, no need to get shirty. Simply, my issue is that a strong link created by the media and then picked up upon by a few people on a forum doesn't really mean a great deal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, maybe it was just the press. My point though that there is a replacement for Giggs out there remains.
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"As for Becks 'captaining us well', I think it's ridiculous."

Well you have the right to think what you want, but in the three games he was not captain our results were 0-3,1-3,1-1. Not very impressive imo. With him we lost only unlucky the leeds and bolton games and had quite good results otherwise. So maybe yout opinion is ridiculous.
 
Rebuilding at OT will have 6 meanings

1 Sell the dead wood. Those players who are not up to Manutd standard ( could be talent or lack of motivation ( P Nev, Chadwick)

2 Bring in new ideas in the team ( WE ARE BECOMING PREDICTABLE SAF)

3 Sell all those players who does not fit inside these new tactics

4 Introduce the youngsters in the first team ( O SHEA, Webber, Richardson)

5 Bring in new talent that will give us the strength in depth needed and motivate our players to give their 101 per cent

6 Loan those who are still a mile or two from reaching Manutd's standards (Nardiello)

MY TEAM WOULD BE

GK Rustu(free),Carroll, Ricardo ( barthez out 5m)

RB OSHEA, G Nev
CB Ayala(free),W Brown
CB Rio, Silvestre
LB Kaladze(10m), Escude (4m) Tierney

Out Blanc(free) P Nev (5m)

RW Beckham, Castroman(part of Stam's deal)
DM Keane, Butt
AM Scholes, Sas (free), Fortune
LW Giggs, Djordic, Richardson

Out Veron( 26m) Pugh ( 2m) Chadwick ( 3m)

FWD Ronaldinho (20m) Forlan
ATT RVN, Solskjear, Webber

IN 41m
out 34m
 
Bringing in the youths is the best option but with the lack of talent we cannot afford it. Yes we have players like O Shea, Brown, Richardson and Djordic but its far from the class 92s standards

Bringing in new players is the only option. SAF should buy shrewdly ( as he did during his first revolution) and not splashing big money on one star or two.

I wont change all the team, it has too much talent in it. But i would bring in competitors that will motivate our current crop
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>Barthez - possibly
Gary Neville - not a chance
O'Shea - the future
Brown - the future
Rio - the future
Blanc - going anyway
Silvestre - possibly
Phil Neville - possibly
Beckham - possibly, but doubt anyone can afford him
Veron - possibly
Scholes - not a chance
Giggs - not a chance
Keano - not a chance
Butt - not a chance
Ruud - not a chance
Solskjaer - only if he wants to leave
Forlan - possibly</strong><hr></blockquote>


players that could leave IMO:

Giggs
Becks
Fab
Blanc (retire)
Seba
Silvestre (altho' we're not exactly, strong in that department)

no chance:

scholes
rio
ruud
wes
o'shea
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Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Out Veron( 26m) </strong><hr></blockquote>

i think we'd be very very lucky to get that kind of money for Veron.. atm i'm looking at about 15 - and that's if we're lucky.

might as well keep him and turn him good rather than bringing castroman.. castroman may end up the same story.. plus his contract will force us to play him 80% of the time.. not worth it.
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Castroman is a pure winger with the PACE and technique needed to cover Becks brilliantly. At 4m you will have him and he is a geniune talent who can play everywhere on the flanks (wlb wrb rw lw)

Veron is not a winger and will never be. In italy he is highly rated and with Cuper and Lippi wanting him so much you can earn 20m - 26m out of him, but we need to act fast
 
It's all right all of this talk about selling Verón, but has anyone thought that he might not want to go? If not, he can't be pushed.
 
It's all very nice to make up in-out shopping lists but it doesn't really work that way because:

1)We cannot expect to change the spine of the team and the replacements bringing us instant success.

2)We should not be over-excited about big-names as it means feck all when what we are most lacking is motivation and not class. No mercenaries ala Chelsea/Lazio, please, those two have proved money doesn't buy success.

3)It is crucial to determine whether we are insisting on a more patient/controlling(?) midfield (4-5-1) approach or fast paced attack with 2 out and out strikers (4-4-2). What will be done largely depends on that as right now we don't have the right players for either (not enough striker firepower for 4-4-2 nor a real proper link-up/"hole" man for 4-5-1).

GK: No point fiddling. Let's face it, we want a Peter Schmeichel and the only one close to that is Kahn who we won't have. We shouldn't keep going on with this keeper merry-go-round. Would like to see more of Carroll though.

Back four: Clearly suffering lack of protection from midfield. Can't see any miracles happening with new players (other than strength in depth). All we need is a solid left back to backup/alternate with Silvestre and who can cover CB if needed(4-5m). Maybe another squad CB if the youngsters don't prove themselves this season.

Midfield up depends on which kind of game we want to play. Ronaldinho looks ideal for what we are currently trying to play, not if we revert to our old direct 4-4-2 in which case the big bucks should go to the striker department.

I can see Veron leaving and, if any of the big name old guard players are to leave it would be Giggs (performance and business-wise). I am inclined to believe that getting a good R&L winger will be better (competition) than selling him and buying two "replacements".

There's no need to panic and splash money L/R&C. All we need is to define what we are playing at and 2/3 players going both ways will sort it. Need not cost us much either.
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>It's all right all of this talk about selling Verón, but has anyone thought that he might not want to go? If not, he can't be pushed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I doubt a player of his calibre (because he IS good in the right environment) will throw a tantrum about leaving. If we determine he should leave because it hasn't worked he won't insist on playing out his career as a perceived failure, he will want to join the likes of Inter and prove his worth. Cuper would love to have him and Inter's style (and Serie A) suits him.
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The likes of the Nevilles can be replaced.

How many players of the quality of Beckham can be found?

If we sold the Nevilles (more likely Phil then Gary) Fortune, Chadwick, May it would free up places for younger talent to come though.

If we sell Giggs, Beckham, or Scholes we have to find a world class player to replace them.

Age must also be an issue here. Ole, Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Keane, G Neville, are all around 28 - 31.

We need to be thinking about younger players coming into midfield.
 
Livvie is no Racist! <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />
 
Lots of good points have been made in this thread. Too many for me to single out and agree with, so I'll not bother and let you all think I am agreeing with your point. ;)

Besides, I've made my points on this subject in other threads. And I'm sure they were so memorable that you don't need me to repeat them again. ;)
 
Originally posted by Travis Bickle:
<strong>Age must also be an issue here. Ole, Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Keane, G Neville, are all around 28 - 31.

We need to be thinking about younger players coming into midfield.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Certainly. The good side of this bad run is our expectations are lower and that will enable us to try out younger players. Rather than buy quick-fix old proven players we should look at young (fairly experienced) talent to alternate with these over the next 2-3 years.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Beckham/Ole/Giggs/Nevilles = players who have a United heart.

You can't buy that. Sell those kind of players and you sell the soul of the club, and you end up with a team like City or Arsenal, a team full of foreigners with no real passion for Manchester United.

If that's the price of success I don't want it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

yet siddy showed passion in the derby...while we had 5 mancs in the team...

TBH i'd love to see a United team full of players from Gt manchester....
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>TBH i'd love to see a United team full of players from Gt manchester....</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>
yet siddy showed passion in the derby...while we had 5 mancs in the team...

TBH i'd love to see a United team full of players from Gt manchester....</strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought the same. But then, they play for the not-really-massive and if they want to progress in their careers those are the games they have to perform in.

Our problem is our players don't have any next step, they don't need to push themselves to get a better deal or move to a bigger club and they are pretty clear that they won't get dropped/offloaded either (so far). Let's face it, self-interest is an important factor in motivation.
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This is an interview Gary has recently made:
"I was obsessed with United from the first game I went to," he said. "I was amazed by Manchester United, it just sort of grips you and I always wanted to play for them as a youngster. Every time I kicked a football I was Bryan Robson or Norman Whiteside, players like that. They were my heroes as a youngster, and it was a dream to play for United. Unbelievably I’ve had chance to play for them quite a lot of times. "People ask me about my ambitions, and it was always to play for Manchester United, and playing now is just a continuation of that."

"I keep myself motivated by the thought of not playing for United," he admitted. "By the thought of having to go and play for another club, then I’d struggle to motivate myself. When you’ve been here for a few years and you experience what you experience here, the thought of going in somewhere else and not feeling the same about the club and not enjoying the friendships you have here doesn’t bear thinking about. I want that to last forever."


Now, he's a Red. But its interesting that he puts his motivation as continuing to play for United, rather than winning trophies, and that he expressly it negatively as a fear of leaving - and in sports psychology its fear of failure that leads to 'choking' in important matches, like derby ones. I think its possible to be too comfy at a club, and to value that comfort factor more than winning trophies - and wanting to win trophies is a pre-requisite of a United player.
 
The players likely to leave:
Blanc, May, Silvestre, Phil
Giggs, Veron, Chadwick
Forlan

Maybe: Barthez, G.Neville, Ole, Fortune

Replacemants:
O'Shea, Brown, Ayala, Escude, Tate
Duff/Richardson, Davis/Stewart, Timm
Webber, Cisse/Ronaldinho, Defoe

Maybe: Ricardo/Carrol, O'Shea, Finnan, Nardiello


THE NEW TEAM:

Barthez
(Carrol)

Brown, Ferdinand, O'Shea, Escude
(Coley), (G. Neville), (Brown), (Pugh)

Beckham, Scholes, Keane, Duff
(Timm)(Davis/Diao sp?),(Butt/Stewart)(Richardson)

van Nistelrooy, Cisse
(Ole), (Webber/Defore)

The defence would turn out to be the biggest problem again, because Brown and O'Shea do not deserve to be on the bench, and if you buy anyone, they'd expect to play all the time.

The players that will be leaving for sure are the likes of Chadwick and May, and this is good because they'll free up some space for the youngsters coming through.
 
Barthez
(Carroll)
Gazz Rio O'Shea Silvestre
(Brown) (Brown) (ANOther1) (ANOther1)

+ ANOther2 or promising youth player
Both fullback positions strongly challenged, not just backup.

Beckham Keane Scholes Giggs
(DD/Diego) (Butt) (Stewart/ANOther3) (DD/Diego)

Ruud Cisse(442)/Ronaldinho(451)
(OGS) (Diego)

Out: Veron, Blanc, Fortune, May,
PN (for "warning the old guard" factor)

And get some decent PHYSIO FFS! <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" />
 
Originally posted by Nistelrooy10:
<strong>The players likely to leave:
Blanc, May, Silvestre, Phil
Giggs, Veron, Chadwick
Forlan

Maybe: Barthez, G.Neville, Ole, Fortune

Replacemants:
O'Shea, Brown, Ayala, Escude, Tate
Duff/Richardson, Davis/Stewart, Timm
Webber, Cisse/Ronaldinho, Defoe

Maybe: Ricardo/Carrol, O'Shea, Finnan, Nardiello


THE NEW TEAM:

Barthez
(Carrol)

Brown, Ferdinand, O'Shea, Escude
(Coley), (G. Neville), (Brown), (Pugh)

Beckham, Scholes, Keane, Duff
(Timm)(Davis/Diao sp?),(Butt/Stewart)(Richardson)

van Nistelrooy, Cisse
(Ole), (Webber/Defore)

The defence would turn out to be the biggest problem again, because Brown and O'Shea do not deserve to be on the bench, and if you buy anyone, they'd expect to play all the time.

The players that will be leaving for sure are the likes of Chadwick and May, and this is good because they'll free up some space for the youngsters coming through.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Swap Mads and Davis round, Mads is similar to Scholes, an attacking central midfielder. Davis is a forward/right winger.
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

yet siddy showed passion in the derby...while we had 5 mancs in the team...

</strong><hr></blockquote>

they had players like Goater in the team - he got his 100th goal for shitty in this game.

Then there was Anelka, who has scored in all games he started against us.

Then there was Big Pete, who i am sure on that day wanted to save all shots coming his way from us. He wanted the win against us.

I think it was a mixture of passion and their personal wants of destroying United as a team. This mixture made them play very well. So no, it wasn't just their passion for Shitty that made them win over us. I don't think so anyway.
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Having a homegrown team is better because

1 Youths are cheaper for the club than bringing 20m rated players.

2 Youths tend to be more loyal to the team

3 A Youth will accept the bench better.

4 A youth is easier to groom to the club's specification.

But it is also true that a Homegrown DOES not always mean that.

Do you remember Mcmanaman for example? He betrayed liverpool and went to real for free.

It is not fair for a foriegner to judge him as a money grabber. Its an insult to ppl like Keane, Cantona and Schmeichel who gave their hearts out for Manutd.

On the other hand having a local based team does not guarantee you of the battling spirit and the talent needed. Look at the current team, Manutd are lacking of battling spirit DESPITE having a local based spine.

I would judge a player individually without considering whether or not he is a local boy. If he has the talent AND the heart he will stay, if not he should be sold.

I prefare a dutch that can do the job rather than a local boy who cant. That is the mentality we should work on
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>


I think it was a mixture of passion and their personal wants of destroying United as a team. This mixture made them play very well. So no, it wasn't just their passion for Shitty that made them win over us. I don't think so anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's a very good point.

They played well because of their hatred for us, rather than a love for City.

And I don't think for one minute that our lads didn't want to win - but we're suffering severely in the confidence department atm, and the stakes were high that day. Fear can make you freeze, and unfortunately, there is too much fear in our team right now.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

And I don't think for one minute that our lads didn't want to win - but we're suffering severely in the confidence department atm, and the stakes were high that day. Fear can make you freeze, and unfortunately, there is too much fear in our team right now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Aside from our injuries, I think that's our biggest problem right now. The team's confidence has been shattered. Against West Ham on Sunday, the United from a couple of years ago would have gone for a 2nd, 3rd goal and wrapped the game up. Instead we wanted to defend what we had and instead of believing we would win, we were afraid to lose. When you start playing with uncertainty and fear, you're always going to be in trouble.
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Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>

Aside from our injuries, I think that's our biggest problem right now. The team's confidence has been shattered. Against West Ham on Sunday, the United from a couple of years ago would have gone for a 2nd, 3rd goal and wrapped the game up. Instead we wanted to defend what we had and instead of believing we would win, we were afraid to lose. When you start playing with uncertainty and fear, you're always going to be in trouble.</strong><hr></blockquote>


And that imo is our main problem right now, along with a shortage in personnel due to injuries.

Instead of talking about wholesale clearance sales, the team needs us to show a bit of confidence in them.

Which doesn't mean there can't be improvements - for a start, does Laurent Blanc ever mark anyone????
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Originally posted by antohan:
<strong>

I thought the same. But then, they play for the not-really-massive and if they want to progress in their careers those are the games they have to perform in.

Our problem is our players don't have any next step, they don't need to push themselves to get a better deal or move to a bigger club and they are pretty clear that they won't get dropped/offloaded either (so far). Let's face it, self-interest is an important factor in motivation.</strong><hr></blockquote>


i think the key is having young hungery players, no matter where they come from. Against City, it was a team of superstars against, players trying to prove themselves..

I kinda agree with Livvie, about having the core of the team come through the youth set up, this way any future success will last longer, than a quick fix.


and i was serious weastey! i'd love to see 11 mancs play for United!! ;)
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

yet siddy showed passion in the derby...while we had 5 mancs in the team...

TBH i'd love to see a United team full of players from Gt manchester....</strong><hr></blockquote>

City had players who love the club playing for them..

Like Schmeichel

;)
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Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Having a homegrown team is better because

1 Youths are cheaper for the club than bringing 20m rated players.

2 Youths tend to be more loyal to the team

3 A Youth will accept the bench better.

4 A youth is easier to groom to the club's specification.

But it is also true that a Homegrown DOES not always mean that.

Do you remember Mcmanaman for example? He betrayed liverpool and went to real for free.

I would judge a player individually without considering whether or not he is a local boy. If he has the talent AND the heart he will stay, if not he should be sold.

I prefare a dutch that can do the job rather than a local boy who cant. That is the mentality we should work on</strong><hr></blockquote>

While I agree with the beginning and last two paragraphs of your post, I have to disagree with the part regarding McManaman.

1) He wasn't offered a new deal by Liverpool until he had already signed the pre-contract with Real.

2) He was sent to Barcelona on a wild goose chase by Liverpool, who actually wanted to sell him before his contract was up.

3) Due to the above, who could blame him for telling the Houllier to bugger off and get a cushy number at Real?
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And what about Campbell?

Money spin the heads of many, even those of local boys
 
I hope Fergie exhausts all other options before dismantling this team. I'd hate to see something that's taken him years to build destroyed when maybe the remedy that's required isn't nearly so drastic. It's possible that maybe this team just needs a bit of tweaking.

I'd like to see what would happen if we played our best 11 week-in, week-out in the league and in the formation that's won us so many titles. I'd like to see players played in their natural position. And I'd like to see that team given a run of games so they have a chance to gel again. And if all that fails, then fine, Fergie should unload whoever he has to unload to build the kind of team we'd all like to see again. But until he's willing to do that, I don't think this team's been given a fair chance to show what it can really do.
 
Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>I hope Fergie exhausts all other options before dismantling this team. I'd hate to see something that's taken him years to build destroyed when maybe the remedy that's required isn't nearly so drastic. It's possible that maybe this team just needs a bit of tweaking.

I'd like to see what would happen if we played our best 11 week-in, week-out in the league and in the formation that's won us so many titles. I'd like to see players played in their natural position. And I'd like to see that team given a run of games so they have a chance to gel again. And if all that fails, then fine, Fergie should unload whoever he has to unload to build the kind of team we'd all like to see again. But until he's willing to do that, I don't think this team's been given a fair chance to show what it can really do.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Have you thought of applying for the manager's job?

Everything you say makes perfect sense to me.

The present team can't be dismissed until all the negative factors present atm are gone - mainly a lack of confidence and all the injuries.

And as you say, the team needs to play together for several games in order to gel. Players also need to play in the positions which suit them best.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Have you thought of applying for the manager's job?

Everything you say makes perfect sense to me.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

:) But I could never stand to sell players like Giggsy even if it was the smart thing to do...too sentimental. Couldn't bear the thought of seeing Giggsy tearing down the left wing for Barcelona or Juventus at Old Trafford on a European night... I'd probably keep all the players until they retired at 35!
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I hope Fergie exhausts all other options before dismantling this team. I'd hate to see something that's taken him years to build destroyed when maybe the remedy that's required isn't nearly so drastic. It's possible that maybe this team just needs a bit of tweaking.
I'd like to see what would happen if we played our best 11 week-in, week-out in the league and in the formation that's won us so many titles. I'd like to see players played in their natural position. And I'd like to see that team given a run of games so they have a chance to gel again. And if all that fails, then fine, Fergie should unload whoever he has to unload to build the kind of team we'd all like to see again. But until he's willing to do that, I don't think this team's been given a fair chance to show what it can really do.

AMEN
 
Out: Gary and Phil Neville, David May, Laurent Blanc, Paul Scholes, David Beckham, Ryan Giggs,
Ole Gunnar Solksjaer, Veron, Stewart
IN: Nicolas Burdisso, Julien Escude, Kevin Hofland, Papa Boba Diop, Owen Hargreaves, Alan Smith, Ronaldinho, Cisse, Marc Van Bommel, VanDeMeyde

New look squad:
Keepers: Barthez, Ricardo, Carroll

Fullbacks: Wes, Silvestre,Burdisso, Escude
Centerbacks: Rio, O'shea, Hofland
Central midfielders:Keane, Diop Butt, Van bommel,Fortune, Hargreaves
Wingers: VanDeMeyde , Ronaldinho,Forlan, Richardson, Davis, Pugh

Forwards: Ruud, Smith, Cisse, Nardiello, Webber

First team:

Barthez

Wes Brown Rio Ferdinand John O'shea Sivestre
Diop Keane
Van DeMeyde Ronaldinho
Ruud Smith/ Cisse

Bench;
Butt
Van Bommel
Forlan
Richadrson
Hofland
Cisse/Smith
Hargreaves
Something liek this "MIGHT" happen. But I i'm highly cynical
 
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