Rebuilding Could See Exits...But Who?

[Dans]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

You should be equally disappointed with Ruud's, Ole's and Rio's form then. Want them to leave as well?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why are you trying to turn this into one of your typically idiotic arguments?

I've said my bit. You've agreed with me. I've agreed with you about Giggs. Perhaps read my first post again.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
And I asked you "Who do you think has lost their desire, as Alex and Keane suggests?"</strong><hr></blockquote>

On this year's performances, there is a lack of desire throughout the team. The derby game highlighted this.

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

And I'd love to agree with that and do actually but I am disappointed with his form this season. I do recognise that he would be very, very difficult to replace.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The old Giggs would be very difficult to replace...

The Giggs who played yesterday would not

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>All this talk about selling the core of our team and bringing in foreign players has to come from people whose only priority is winning trophies.

The day Manchester United trot out eleven big-name, hyped up foreigners, who would probably know nothing about the club and its history, is the day I jack it in.

And if you sell all these players, who do you replace them with? Bring in superstars who don't want to sit on the bench? And if not superstars, then who - remembering that with a lot of first-team players to replace, you would also need to have quality back-up.

I don't like the disloyalty that's being shown here.

When a player reaches a certain age, and has to leave - like Irwin - then fine. But players who just three years ago won us the treble, don't deserve to be chucked on the scrap heap. What they might have to do is settle for more appearances as sub or whatever, but as long as they're still useful, Manchester United owes them just as much as they owe Manchester United.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats a very sentimental and nice view of football, but I think the reality is that players are 'lumps of meat' as Keane says. And Alex's career is about winning trophies and the interview reiterated this - as he should. Players and managers should want to win trophies, if they don't then they can feck off to a Villa or a Spurs. Alex can seem disloyal at times, like with Kidd and Jaap. But thats business.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

The old Giggs would be very difficult to replace...

The Giggs who played yesterday would not</strong><hr></blockquote>

You've watched a football match?

Blimey...!

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>All this talk about selling the core of our team and bringing in foreign players has to come from people whose only priority is winning trophies.

The day Manchester United trot out eleven big-name, hyped up foreigners, who would probably know nothing about the club and its history, is the day I jack it in.

And if you sell all these players, who do you replace them with? Bring in superstars who don't want to sit on the bench? And if not superstars, then who - remembering that with a lot of first-team players to replace, you would also need to have quality back-up.

I don't like the disloyalty that's being shown here.

When a player reaches a certain age, and has to leave - like Irwin - then fine. But players who just three years ago won us the treble, don't deserve to be chucked on the scrap heap. What they might have to do is settle for more appearances as sub or whatever, but as long as they're still useful, Manchester United owes them just as much as they owe Manchester United.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And all this talk of jacking it in and disloyalty is somewhat melodramatic I think. The goal of any club is to win trohpies. We might as well all jack it in if that isn't the case. Don't believe all that bollox about it's the taking part that counts - all those clubs are in those competitions to win. Most won't be that's what they all want. People seem a little over sensitive with regards to our team based on what we've achieved in the last 10 years, with no little sentiment spared for the fact that half a dozen players are Mancs and came through the ranks. It was a one off - you're not going to get another six local lads emulating what they have. The team is sterile at the moment, some players might need moving on. They should not be moved on based on whether they are from Manchester or not. However, I tend to agree that the core of them should stay.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

On this year's performances, there is a lack of desire throughout the team. The derby game highlighted this.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It did (excepting Scholes in that game), and Keane says it has been more and more this way since '99. Can that be allowed to continue? Alex is suggesting that it can't be.

 

[thumper]

Thats a very romantic way of looking at it Livvie. Its a business now and the club owes the players nothing. It pays them to do a job and pays them well and when the time comes when they are not doing the job they get replaced. Its the same everywhere, not just football. But just because they won the treble or the league 2 seasons ago does not give them a right to play in the team if they are not upto standard. If the team are not winning then they are not getting the exposure then they appeal less to the young impressionable worldwide supporters, to sponsors etc who supply the money. Everybody is replaceable and if we can cash in on certain plyers then we should if its beneficial to the club.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

The old Giggs would be very difficult to replace...

The Giggs who played yesterday would not</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, there's only one left winger who I'd consider and that's Kewell. Name me any others that are worthy of the LW position?

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Thats a very sentimental and nice view of football, but I think the reality is that players are 'lumps of meat' as Keane says. And Alex's career is about winning trophies and the interview reiterated this - as he should. Players and managers should want to win trophies, if they don't then they can feck off to a Villa or a Spurs. Alex can seem disloyal at times, like with Kidd and Jaap. But thats business.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Doesn't answer the question tho about who you replace all these players with - or about the lack of quality back-up there would be.

You can't have a mass clear-out because we haven't got Beckham, Butt, Scholes and the Nevilles waiting in the wings.

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Actually, there's only one left winger who I'd consider and that's Kewell. Name me any others that are worthy of the LW position?</strong><hr></blockquote>

There's no one around in the PL who is as good as Giggs at his best, apart from Pires..

But thats the point, how often do you get a decent performance from Giggs nowadays? Particularly in the league...not only have you got players in the team that you don't think should be there, but you better players are not performing as they have in the past..

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Actually, there's only one left winger who I'd consider and that's Kewell. Name me any others that are worthy of the LW position?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Duff. Overwhelmingly the most desired player this summer after Rio. Still doing well in the Opta stats this year (which Giggs doesn't even get on to). Him and Richardson should be good.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Actually, there's only one left winger who I'd consider and that's Kewell. Name me any others that are worthy of the LW position?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No point replacing one inconsistent player with another one.

 

[Jade]

Does Giggs still have a passion for United? I haven't seen it for a long time. <hr></blockquote>

funny,i read a review last night that called giggs the man of the match, i didnt see where he was so awful,he atleast seemed to want to make something happen,his ambition is still there.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by thumper:
<strong> But just because they won the treble or the league 2 seasons ago does not give them a right to play in the team if they are not upto standard. </strong><hr></blockquote>


I haven't said anywhere that they have the right to play in the team.

But until players aren't physically capable of sustaining a Premier League career, then those who have been good enough to win us trophies very recently, have not suddenly become bad players.

I notice yet again that the players are being accused of being past it and no longer up to standard - but no-one seems to think the same could be applied to the manager.

If Fergie is still good enough to manage, then most of these players are still good enough to play for Manchester United, whether as a regular in the first team, or whether as squad players.

Double standards if these criticisms are only directed at the players.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


Doesn't answer the question tho about who you replace all these players with - or about the lack of quality back-up there would be.

You can't have a mass clear-out because we haven't got Beckham, Butt, Scholes and the Nevilles waiting in the wings.</strong><hr></blockquote>
We've got some good players coming through, not just O'Shea, but Richardson, Davis, Mads Timm, Fletcher, Stewart and Webber. But selling a or more than one, big name player, brings in big money. The Board aren't going to keep stumping up big money without expecting people sold in return - just as they quibbled over PDC money and insisted Yorke was sold first.

 

[golden_blunder]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


But until players aren't physically capable of sustaining a Premier League career, then those who have been good enough to win us trophies very recently, have not suddenly become bad players.

I notice yet again that the players are being accused of being past it and no longer up to standard - but no-one seems to think the same could be applied to the manager.

</strong><hr></blockquote>


Liv, did you feel the same when McGrath & Whiteside were shipped out (big shock at the time) then in later years Hughes, Ince, Kanchelskis, Sharpe?
The managers judgement then was spot on, and i think if he feels the need in the summer to rebuild (at any players expense) then we should trust his judgement.
As for foreign players, as i said before, foreign players can come in, play for the shirt and make a difference. eg. Cantona, Schmeichel, Ruud

btw reading between the lines of his NOTW interview i dont see him buying big price/big name players again. He seemed to infer that in hindsight he would try and get in more players for his money. At least thats what i took out of it.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>
btw reading between the lines of his NOTW interview i dont see him buying big price/big name players again. He seemed to infer that in hindsight he would try and get in more players for his money. At least thats what i took out of it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not bloody surprised, cos Kenyon isn't going to let him go wild on the cheque book again.

 

[thumper]

Dans, do you think Kewell would be consistent enough or would DD not do the job?

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>


Liv, did you feel the same when McGrath & Whiteside were shipped out (big shock at the time) then in later years Hughes, Ince, Kanchelskis, Sharpe?
The managers judgement then was spot on, and i think if he feels the need in the summer to rebuild (at any players expense) then we should trust his judgement.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I did feel the same. But there were extenuating circumstances with at least three of them - Ince, Whiteside, and McGrath, and to some extent Sharpe.

If we can get our squad fit, and get a settled team, then I would look at any player who performed badly over a sustained period. But it's too soon to panic buy and too soon to panic sell.

You can't judge players who have had to play in a weakened side, frequently out of their natural position.

It wouldn't be fair, and it wouldn't be sane.

 

[nickm]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

You can't judge players who have had to play in a weakened side, frequently out of their natural position.

It wouldn't be fair, and it wouldn't be sane.</strong><hr></blockquote>


The players who are coming in lack fight - this is the problem. There used to be a bloody-mindedness about all our players.

Juventus always used to sell a top star or two at the end of every season, presumably to get value and send a message to the rest of team.

United need to get ruthless with opponenents again, and part of that may involve Fergie getting ruthless with his squad.

Look at Houllier - sold local hero and quality striker Robbie Fowler and the scousers improved! There's a lesson in that.

 

[golden_blunder]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I did feel the same. But there were extenuating circumstances with at least three of them - Ince, Whiteside, and McGrath, and to some extent Sharpe.

If we can get our squad fit, and get a settled team, then I would look at any player who performed badly over a sustained period. But it's too soon to panic buy and too soon to panic sell.

You can't judge players who have had to play in a weakened side, frequently out of their natural position.

It wouldn't be fair, and it wouldn't be sane.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i agree to an extent Liv, get the big boys back and settle on a formation. However, i think we should know by the end of the season who the mice and who the men are. I dont think (and i hope) that Fergie doesnt let the slow rot drag on into another season, hoping that it will all become good, because if he does we'll drop very quickly down that league.
A culling of dead wood, should start this summer & i wouldnt be surprised to see a big name or 2 amongst the departee's. Talk of selling 5 or 6 players from the first team pool at the one time is nonsense though..

 

[El Diego]

If we were to rebuild then this would be my ideal team.

GK-Rustu or Carini
LB-Silvestre or Escude
RB-Cafu or Coly
CB-Rio
CB-O'Shea or Brown
RM-Beckham
LM-Giggs
CM-Keane
CM-Ronaldinho or Scholes
FW-Van Nistelrooy
FW-Shevchenko or Cisse

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by El Diego:
<strong>If we were to rebuild then this would be my ideal team.

GK-Rustu or Carini
LB-Silvestre or Escude
RB-Cafu or Coly
CB-Rio
CB-O'Shea or Brown
RM-Beckham
LM-Giggs
CM-Keane
CM-Ronaldinho or Scholes
FW-Van Nistelrooy
FW-Shevchenko or Cisse</strong><hr></blockquote>

How much is that going to cost?

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Duff. Overwhelmingly the most desired player this summer after Rio. Still doing well in the Opta stats this year (which Giggs doesn't even get on to). Him and Richardson should be good.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Overwhelmingly desired by any managers? Or overwhelmingly desired by posters on the forum and "reporters" for the likes of Planetbollox.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

No point replacing one inconsistent player with another one.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The fresh challenge, new scene factor shouldn't be overlooked here though and that's what I think is key here.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Overwhelmingly desired by any managers? Or overwhelmingly desired by posters on the forum and "reporters" for the likes of Planetbollox.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Both, he was strongly linked with us and liverpool, suffered from the World Cup inflated price syndrome, and ended up with a new contract and glowing praise from his manager. He also seemed to be the fans choice.

 

[Rory 7]

Barthez
Silvestre
Veron

Will go

Plus........

One from Bex/Giggs/Keane

 

[becks75]

"Beckham - possibly"

- Becks has signed a new contract and has been named vice-captain.

- He hasn´t played very well this season, but was quite good as captain (only 1 point in the three games he missed).

-He has a father/son relationship to SAF.

-In form I still don`t see any better player in the world on his position.

The PLC knows very well that Becks is the biggest money generating machine ever on a football field.

All these facts =&gt; There is no chance that Becks will leave United except he wants and that´s not the case as far as I know.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Both, he was strongly linked with us and liverpool, suffered from the World Cup inflated price syndrome.....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Reminds me of Coly.

So did Ferguson actually ever come out and say we want him and bid for him then?

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by El Diego:
If we were to rebuild then this would be my ideal team.
GK-Rustu or Carini
LB-Silvestre or Escude
RB-Cafu or Coly
CB-Rio
CB-O'Shea or Brown
RM-Beckham
LM-Giggs
CM-Keane
CM-Ronaldinho or Scholes
FW-Van Nistelrooy
FW-Shevchenko or Cisse

How much is that going to cost? </strong><hr></blockquote>

I think Rustu and Escude both cost only 3-4m, Cafu will be free, Ronaldinho is around 20m, while Shvechenko will be also around 20m. If we keep Scholes and give up Ronaldinho, then it will cost us around 28m for his "solution".

 

[golden_blunder]

Originally posted by becks75:
<strong>"Beckham - possibly"

- Becks has signed a new contract and has been named vice-captain.

- He hasn´t played very well this season, but was quite good as captain (only 1 point in the three games he missed).

-He has a father/son relationship to SAF.

-In form I still don`t see any better player in the world on his position.

The PLC knows very well that Becks is the biggest money generating machine ever on a football field.

All these facts =&gt; There is no chance that Becks will leave United except he wants and that´s not the case as far as I know. </strong><hr></blockquote>

He'll go if the PLC receive a good offer for him & if Fergie decides he cant cut the mustard anymore/or can get someone to do a better job in that role.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
I'm not bloody surprised, cos Kenyon isn't going to let him go wild on the cheque book again.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nor we really need to. Time to inject some potential and less profilic players who are willing to fight for their place and make their names in our team.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Reminds me of Coly.

So did Ferguson actually ever come out and say we want him and bid for him then?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I said strongly linked, he rarely ever speaks about a player when he tries to sign them, for example he still hasn't named the 4th striker he was in for. But what is your point Dans? You don't think Duff was a popular choice over the Summer, or you don't rate him over Giggs?

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Duff. Overwhelmingly the most desired player this summer after Rio. Still doing well in the Opta stats this year (which Giggs doesn't even get on to). Him and Richardson should be good.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My point is Neil, that you have no real evidence that he was overwhemingly desired other than what you read on these websites. Strongly linked means feck all really doesn't it, considering we were strongly linked with baout 50 players. My point is that you can't know who the manager is interested in really can you? My point is also that I don't think Duff is all that.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>

He'll go if the PLC receive a good offer for him & if Fergie decides he cant cut the mustard anymore/or can get someone to do a better job in that role.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But what's a "good offer" for Becks? Will any club offer 50m for him? If not, I don't think the PLC will ever let him go. We all know how many people who know nothing about football keep purchasing Beckham's shirt, photos, posters, etc.

 

[thumper]

On current form DD is the man most likely to take over from Giggs.

 

[Amir]

Originally posted by becks75:
<strong>"Beckham - possibly"
- He hasn´t played very well this season, but was quite good as captain (only 1 point in the three games he missed).
-He has a father/son relationship to SAF. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Seems to me like all of the home lads have the father/son thing with the gaffer. As for Becks 'captaining us well', I think it's ridiculous. Roy Keane doesn't need an armband to be Roy Keane on the pitch. Beckham shouldn't either.

 

[RedforLife]

There will be already 2 players leaving OT at the end of the season. Blanc will be retiring, May will be out of contract. United are already short of a 4th striker and a lb. With Blanc and May leaving another cb may have to be brought in and the board will only authorize SAF so much he can spend. The only way he will be able to bring in the players he thinks he needs he will be forced to sell a high profile player who can raise the amount of money needed. The possibilities imo would be Veron, Beckham and Giggs. The 12 million owed by Lazio would also help.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

My point is Neil, that you have no real evidence that he was overwhemingly desired other than what you read on these websites. Strongly linked means feck all really doesn't it, considering we were strongly linked with baout 50 players. My point is that you can't know who the manager is interested in really can you? My point is also that I don't think Duff is all that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I said desired by the fans, which he was, cos on all the united websites he was, and in the polls on players most wanted. Just cos you didn't doesn't mean you were in the majority. Regarding who the manager wanted, of course that is always speculation, but it was one of the stronger speculative links.