Rebuilding Could See Exits...But Who?

Cigar

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SAF talked in the press overthe weekend that if United fail to win a major trophy this season, he might have to do what he has already done three times to date and rebuild a new Manchester United team, with a fresh style of play.

The question is, if this process of rebuilding the team were to take to take place, whom do you think he would show the exit and furthermore will that rule aplly equally to the home grown players as it will to the imports?

Specifically if Fergie is really going to rebuild the team on the premise that the play has become to predictable, with the same nucleas of players, playing together for the past nine years, does he mean that he will get rid of players like the Nevilles and other stallworths like that?
 
Not easy.

The first team he built took 4/5 years before they became a force.

The second team was built around an unbelievable number of players from the youth system who came thru at the same time. Not likely to get that happen again, either in numbers or in talent.

A mass clear-out would be fatal.
 
He was referring specifically to players who've been here for around 10 years and had maybe grown tired. Therefore, Giggs, Beckhams, Butt, Scholes, Neville and Neville are the one's he's referring to, and if he rebuilds then it would be these that would be under threat.
 
I cannot really see him getting rid of the core players, but rather bringing in a few extra players and making the older ones who have been here for a while realise what it means to play for us.
 
Barthez - possibly
Gary Neville - not a chance
O'Shea - the future
Brown - the future
Rio - the future
Blanc - going anyway
Silvestre - possibly
Phil Neville - possibly
Beckham - possibly, but doubt anyone can afford him
Veron - possibly
Scholes - not a chance
Giggs - not a chance
Keano - not a chance
Butt - not a chance
Ruud - not a chance
Solskjaer - only if he wants to leave
Forlan - possibly
 
I think Giggs and Gary are the most under threat of the homegrown lads. Gigg's loss of vice-captaincy and poor performances make him a candidate, while Alex was livid at Gary's 'stupid' error in the city game. But if its lack of physical strength and aggression, then Veron must be a candidate too.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>I think Giggs and Gary are the most under threat of the homegrown lads. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not a chance in hell. Gary's one of the players Sir Alex respect the most, while Sir Alex is like a father to Giggsy.
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>
O'Shea - the future

</strong><hr></blockquote>

The future starts now......
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Not a chance in hell. Gary's one of the players Sir Alex respect the most, while Sir Alex is like a father to Giggsy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"This team has stayed together for seven, eight, nine years and we wonder whether the continual battles they go through eventually wears them down.

"This is the question we are asking ourselves. Maybe it is not a conscious thing, but sub-consciously the concentration levels drop at certain points of the game and that is something that we have to analyse."

Sounds like Gary to me.

A lot of the other comments sound like references to Veron.

"In terms of winning the ball back we are far too nice a team. " "I can't be more pleased with our European form. The players seem to be inspired by European football." "Why is it not the same in the league games?"

Who though does this refer to?

"I think that we maybe don't have the type of team that can be as aggressive against opponents as we were in 1994, or when we have the likes of Roy Keane and Nicky Butt." "Look at the size of the Arsenal and Liverpool players and then the size of the United players and you get your answer. There is no disputing that."

Not Keane and Butt, maybe Scholes because he's short - but he is aggressive. Veron certainly. Giggs quite possibly. Beckham? Not sure.
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Not sure I'd agree with all of that. If veron/Becks/Ole/The Nevilles and Giggs are sold that would raise a huge amount of cash for rebuilding. Silvetre is out of contract at the end of teh seadon so unless they sell him before jan he's worth nothing. Veron/Becks/Giggs would pull in approx £60million and Ole, the Nev's/Forlan/May/Chadwick/Barthez another £20m-£25m. If he has that money plus £50m from the board plus the ability to bring through some of the youngsters he think's will make it then I can see us having a massive squad with strength in depth plus we have kept the spine of the team eg Ricardo/Carroll - Rio/JOS - Butt/Keano/Scoles - RVN and thats a hell of a spine to build around. We have Tierney at LB who SAF keeps talking up + Burdisso/Escude we'll have cover at CB with Wes/JOS/Rion + at least 1-2 others eg Mexes/Chivu (make use of free transfers eg Ayala). Carr/Finnan or Wes/JOS at RB. We have Stewart/Davis/Richardson comming through for the middle, Webber upfont + buy 2 strikers, 1 world class(eg Totti) and one up and comming (eg Cisse). We'd have the money to get a blend of class and youth plus we'd have the stability of the "spine" to work around. We'd frighten the shite out of the EPL and CL and what player wold turn down the chance to come to a new team where places were up for grabs, headlines (and endorsments ) to be made. Sure its not going to happen but its just my opinion :p
 
His physical comments make me think of Ole to some extent to, but I hope thats me worrying unnecessarily.
 
Beckham/Ole/Giggs/Nevilles = players who have a United heart.

You can't buy that. Sell those kind of players and you sell the soul of the club, and you end up with a team like City or Arsenal, a team full of foreigners with no real passion for Manchester United.

If that's the price of success I don't want it.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Beckham/Ole/Giggs/Nevilles = players who have a United heart.

You can't buy that. Sell those kind of players and you sell the soul of the club, and you end up with a team like City or Arsenal, full of foreigners with no real passion for Manchester United.

If that's the price of success I don't want it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Very true Livvie
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Beckham/Ole/Giggs/Nevilles = players who have a United heart.

You can't buy that. Sell those kind of players and you sell the soul of the club, and you end up with a team like City or Arsenal, a team full of foreigners with no real passion for Manchester United.

If that's the price of success I don't want it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Does Giggs still have a passion for United? I haven't seen it for a long time.
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Look again</strong><hr></blockquote>
We've all been looking for it all season. And it sounds to me that Alex's looking for it for the rest of the season. Who do you think has lost their desire, as Alex and Keane suggests?
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
We've all been looking for it all season. And it sounds to me that Alex's looking for it for the rest of the season. Who do you think has lost their desire, as Alex and Keane suggests?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Look at the list above
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Ole is nearly 30 and not a regular. I love him, think he's great but if we get a good offer and have a replacement then sell him. Becks/The Nev's/Giggs = United Heart? that means nothing in todays game, just look at the Derby match, where was the heart there and anyway if you have young players comming through will they not have heart?
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Did he hate Hughes? I don't think so...</strong><hr></blockquote>


Would Hughes have been sold if he was prepared to stay on the bench?

I thought there was still a lot of mileage in Sparky. I wouldn't have sold him for the same reason it would be a mistake to sell the aforementioned.
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Did he hate Hughes? I don't think so...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Different scenario. Hughes wasn't going to sit on the bench, and we had just bought Cole for a record sum of money. Ole is used to and accept his role as a squad player.
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Look at the list above</strong><hr></blockquote>
Phil and Beckham are the ones you think have lost their desire? One thing you get from Becks is 100% effort, the only problem is that its in the middle of the park and not down the wing, which isn't his fault. Phil, may not have good concentration or much ability, but he's tried hard for most of the season - apart from in the derby.
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Different scenario. Hughes wasn't going to sit on the bench, and we had just bought Cole for a record sum of money. Ole is used to and accept his role as a squad player.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Most people expect a bigname striker, a first choice striker, to come in, so he'll have to accept his role as a squad player - I just hope he's not sold in order to get a bigger, faster player.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Beckham/Ole/Giggs/Nevilles = players who have a United heart.

You can't buy that. Sell those kind of players and you sell the soul of the club</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually the supporters are the soul of the club, both those who go week in week out to matches and also of course those that cannot. We will still be supporting United in 30 years.
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>One thing you get from Becks is 100% effort, the only problem is that its in the middle of the park and not down the wing, which isn't his fault.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Who's bloody fault is it then? He's not told to come in all of the time. And don't tell me he has to do it when Keane or Butt are playing, because he doesn't. And don't say he hasn't done it when Keane and Butt were playing, because he has. Of course it's his fault, he's got it in his head that he's better in the middle than on the wing.
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Mark Hughes was not sold. He left, and Fergie didn't even know about it until he joined Chelsea.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Phil and Beckham are the ones you think have lost their desire? One thing you get from Becks is 100% effort, the only problem is that its in the middle of the park and not down the wing, which isn't his fault. Phil, may not have good concentration or much ability, but he's tried hard for most of the season - apart from in the derby.</strong><hr></blockquote>


No Neil, I've not said that Phil and Becks have lost their desire, I've just pointed out who might be leaving if there's a clear out.

Sir Alex is not happy about all the baggage Becks is carrying around, and Phil has never developed into the player everyone thought he would 5 years ago.
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Personally, based on this season and looking further forward, I would get rid of the following:

Barthez - 10m in
Blanc (forced out even if he wants to stay)
Silvestre - 8m in
Solksjaer - Has not been the same this season. Got some money for him while we can. 8m in
Chadwick - Cr*p - 1m in
Fortune - Nice player, but not for us. - 2m in
Phil Neville - Dependable, but we could get better for the money we will sell him for. - 4m in

I think we will get Burdisso and Escude as previously planned. For a new keeper I would go for Chris Kirkland of Liverpool. Convince him he will be our number one and he might come as he obviously ain't gonna get a game at Liverpool. I would promote Richardson, Davis and Timm to the first team squad. I would obviously get two strikers. Don't know who, but one with pace and another deeper lying striker would be good. Also, I would get a Vieria type midfielder. We have been linked with Diop of Lens who would meet this criteria. I also like Ferdinand Coly of Lens who would be cheap and is a good defender. Another couple of cheaper youngsters would be good.
 
The following should move on:

Barthez (overrated)
Blanc (nothing needs to be said)
Veron (ditto)
Silvestre (still not and don't think I ever will be convinced by him)
Giggs (he's lost it, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt if I knew the manager was telling him to cut inside at every opportunity in every game but somehow I can't believe it)
P Neville (he is NOT a midfielder and never will be)
Chadwick (he's never ever looked good, how a guy who stumbles over the ball and somehow ends up with it past the full back is beyond me)
May (don't quite know why we ever bother mentioning him at all, but still)

I would keep Fortune and try him in central midfield, I'm quite sure he will do a better job than Veron.

I would be tempted to cash in on Beckham too, although if he can get back to the winger he once was I'd keep him.

We need to start again and if that involves ending up mid table for a few years then so be it. As such I'm also tempted to say we need a change of manager for a true fresh start.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>The following should move on:

Barthez (overrated)
Blanc (nothing needs to be said)
Veron (ditto)
Silvestre (still not and don't think I ever will be convinced by him)
Giggs (he's lost it, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt if I knew the manager was telling him to cut inside at every opportunity in every game but somehow I can't believe it)
P Neville (he is NOT a midfielder and never will be)
Chadwick (he's never ever looked good, how a guy who stumbles over the ball and somehow ends up with it past the full back is beyond me)
May (don't quite know why we ever bother mentioning him at all, but still)

I would keep Fortune and try him in central midfield, I'm quite sure he will do a better job than Veron.

I would be tempted to cash in on Beckham too, although if he can get back to the winger he once was I'd keep him.

We need to start again and if that involves ending up mid table for a few years then so be it. As such I'm also tempted to say we need a change of manager for a true fresh start.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I agree with that apart from Giggs. A very special player, who's impossible to replace.
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>


I agree with that apart from Giggs. A very special player, who's impossible to replace.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And I'd love to agree with that and do actually but I am disappointed with his form this season. I do recognise that he would be very, very difficult to replace.
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im one of the Nevilles biggest fans, but if Fergie thinks its time to replace them, then so be it. I dont agree with this theory that we dont want success if it means sacrificing the 'heart of the team' ie. the manchester lads. Im sure theyd be the first to agree that United are in it to win as many trophies as they possibly can, no matter who is in the team. We cant say that foreigners wont have as much passion for the team as local lads, its just a matter of finding the right ones. Take Eric as an example, he showed more passion for the shirt than anyone in years & was loved for it...yet he was a foreigner. We can also see that in Ruud. The difference being though, that these players immersed themselves in the history & magic that is Manchester United.
Using Veron as the most recent example, he always comes across to me as being at United simply because he had too, as it was the best available option to him at the time. He's starting to make the right noises now but thats down to him reciprocating Fergies faith in him more than of a love for the club.

Bit of a ramble, but my point being is that if any of the players has lost their motivation & desire to play for the shirt, then they should be shipped out. It doesnt matter if its the Nevilles, Giggs, Veron, Beckham, or any of the young lads. In fact i suspect at the end of the season Fergie will surprise us all by selling of a major player or 2. I suspect Giggs and Beckham may be under most threat come this summer.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

And I'd love to agree with that and do actually but I am disappointed with his form this season. I do recognise that he would be very, very difficult to replace.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You should be equally disappointed with Ruud's, Ole's and Rio's form then. Want them to leave as well?
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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

Who's bloody fault is it then? He's not told to come in all of the time. And don't tell me he has to do it when Keane or Butt are playing, because he doesn't. And don't say he hasn't done it when Keane and Butt were playing, because he has. Of course it's his fault, he's got it in his head that he's better in the middle than on the wing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Alex is on record as saying he instructed both Beckham and Giggs to come infield more in order to score more goals.
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>


No Neil, I've not said that Phil and Becks have lost their desire, I've just pointed out who might be leaving if there's a clear out.

Sir Alex is not happy about all the baggage Becks is carrying around, and Phil has never developed into the player everyone thought he would 5 years ago.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And I asked you "Who do you think has lost their desire, as Alex and Keane suggests?"
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All this talk about selling the core of our team and bringing in foreign players has to come from people whose only priority is winning trophies.

The day Manchester United trot out eleven big-name, hyped up foreigners, who would probably know nothing about the club and its history, is the day I jack it in.

And if you sell all these players, who do you replace them with? Bring in superstars who don't want to sit on the bench? And if not superstars, then who - remembering that with a lot of first-team players to replace, you would also need to have quality back-up.

I don't like the disloyalty that's being shown here.

When a player reaches a certain age, and has to leave - like Irwin - then fine. But players who just three years ago won us the treble, don't deserve to be chucked on the scrap heap. What they might have to do is settle for more appearances as sub or whatever, but as long as they're still useful, Manchester United owes them just as much as they owe Manchester United.
 
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