Really - why did so many of you think Mourinho was better than LVG?

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Theonas said:
I actually don't think we are creating all that many chances apart from the Burnley game. We have more individual quality in the form of Pogba, Mata and Zlatan and we play the ball in the box quicker than before which results in more scrambles but this is more huffing and puffing rather than quality offensive football. Furthermore, Mourinho made it his mission throughout his career to make it all about results regardless of how. He mocked managers who talk about philosophy or have defined footballing principles like Wenger and Guardiola. A lot of his fans support that view which is fair enough even if I don't agree with it. The downside however is that if you choose to make it solely about results and pride yourself in delivering them no matter how, the second you don't win, you have nothing to argue your case.
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We've created plenty of good, clear cut chances against Burnley, Stoke, Arsenal and West Ham, it might not all come from the slick style of the teams you like but they are good chances that should have been buried. In my view we have played some good stuff this season and I find myself actually looking forward to games and despite the poor run of results I feel we are heading in the right direction. Under LvG I had lost any form of enjoyment or hope, watching United became an obligation.

Keeps It tidy said:
A club almost always underperforms because the players are not fulfilling their end. But, it is the manager's job to make sure the players are fulfilling their end. When a team is not up to standard both sides need to take blame.
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This doesn't make sense, it's like saying people can only eat if you shove the food in their mouths and then move their jaws so they can chew. Jose has put everything in place for this lot, he's set the table and now they need to feed themselves, they are missing easy chances every game, there's nothing he can do about that, no manager can.
 
I will echo everyone else who said it's easier to watch a Mou side game compared to LVG.
 
Firstly, let's give Mourinho more than 3 months. Is that too much to ask?

Secondly, the premise that LVG was a long-term solution is false. He would have retired after this year, so finding a replacement was necessary.
 
Theonas said:
I actually don't think we are creating all that many chances apart from the Burnley game. We have more individual quality in the form of Pogba, Mata and Zlatan and we play the ball in the box quicker than before which results in more scrambles but this is more huffing and puffing rather than quality offensive football. Furthermore, Mourinho made it his mission throughout his career to make it all about results regardless of how. He mocked managers who talk about philosophy or have defined footballing principles like Wenger and Guardiola. A lot of his fans support that view which is fair enough even if I don't agree with it. The downside however is that if you choose to make it solely about results and pride yourself in delivering them no matter how, the second you don't win, you have nothing to argue your case.
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Exactly not too long ago he said this.

"When people talk about a new generation of coaches, what is the new generation? The generation will always be the ones that win," the Portuguese told The Sunday Times.

"And the ones that win occasionally or never win will always be something else."
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http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...d-beautiful-football-are-stupid-10303379.html
 
Devil may care said:
We've created plenty of good, clear cut chances against Burnley, Stoke, Arsenal and West Ham, it might not all come from the slick style of the teams you like but they are good chances that should have been buried. In my view we have played some good stuff this season and I find myself actually looking forward to games and despite the poor run of results I feel we are heading in the right direction. Under LvG I had lost any form of enjoyment or hope, watching United became an obligation.
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I see where you are coming from. It is not that I like those teams or that style as first of all those teams play different styles. It is more about the potency of a style. Ours is the least dangerous. It is the equivalent of bombarding the opponents box with crosses and long balls at the end of a game. It is exciting and edge of the seat stuff but it doesn't negate the fact that it is hopeful, desperate football that is easier to deal with than precise slick passing and movement.

I also share the sentiment about LvG's tenure last season. My point is that this isn't necessarily linked to coaching quality or lack of it. We are more direct this year, we take the easy simple route more often than not and we don't try to build nearly as much as we did under LvG. We also had less time to grow tired of what is in front of us and the fact that we have some established big names also makes us look forward to that moment of brilliance. All of these factors result in more things to look forward to and general interest but they do not equate to an improvement in offensive quality which is my point.
 
I think our football speaks for itself why Mourinho is better than LVG. Doesn't mean Mourinho doesn't have issues with picking the right players and managing the squad. Our defense is still leaking and he can't put together players who can finish chances.
 
Theonas said:
I see where you are coming from. It is not that I like those teams or that style as first of all those teams play different styles. It is more about the potency of a style. Ours is the least dangerous. It is the equivalent of bombarding the opponents box with crosses and long balls at the end of a game. It is exciting and edge of the seat stuff but it doesn't negate the fact that it is hopeful, desperate football that is easier to deal with than precise slick passing and movement.

I also share the sentiment about LvG's tenure last season. My point is that this isn't necessarily linked to coaching quality or lack of it. We are more direct this year, we take the easy simple route more often than not and we don't try to build nearly as much as we did under LvG. We also had less time to grow tired of what is in front of us and the fact that we have some established big names also makes us look forward to that moment of brilliance. All of these factors result in more things to look forward to and general interest but they do not equate to an improvement in offensive quality which is my point.
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My point though is that I do think we have improved massively when it comes to offensive, to say all we do is lump up long balls and create scrambles just isn't true at all IMO, we have cut teams open in several cames with lovely interchanges and 1-2's, in the last week alone our goal against Arsenal was class, as were 3 of our 4 goals against Feyenoord. The problem we have is that we lack clinical finishers to complete our moves, and the one we were supposed to be able to count on has missed more chances than anyone. We also should try to field the same attacking quartet more consistently to build a greater understanding, the problem with that has been that nobody but Mata has produced any sustained quality from a wide starting position.
 
Because he is a better manager than LVG. By far.

And regardless, were we going to be in a position to win the title this season had LVG stayed for his final year? No. So getting a top quality replacement in a year earlier hasn't cost us anything. Mourinho has also, at the very least, brought in 3 players who look like they could go on to form the spine of a world class team. Micky is still a bit of a coin flip but Bailly and Pogba are definitely top quality.
 
Devil may care said:
My point though is that I do think we have improved massively when it comes to offensive, to say all we do is lump up long balls and create scrambles just isn't true at all IMO, we have cut teams open in several cames with lovely interchanges and 1-2's, in the last week alone our goal against Arsenal was class, as were 3 of our 4 goals against Feyenoord. The problem we have is that we lack clinical finishers to complete our moves, and the one we were supposed to be able to count on has missed more chances than anyone. We also should try to field the same attacking quartet more consistently to build a greater understanding, the problem with that has been that nobody but Mata has produced any sustained quality from a wide starting position.
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Fair enough, in the league at least to me, Burnley was the only game where we genuinely opened up a defence through some slick football. Leicester, Stoke, Arsenal and today saw that happen a couple of time with the rest being knock-downs, shots and crosses. But as I said, fair enough, different interpretations to different actions I suppose. I do agree about fielding the same players. Coherence and understanding between the players seems to be the least valued quality among fans hence the constant harping on about buying more. The best teams or shall I say, slickest teams, have played together for a significant period of time. Without familiarity in terms of tactics and personnel, fluid football is a very difficult thing to achieve even if you have top players.
 
Theonas said:
Fair enough, in the league at least to me, Burnley was the only game where we genuinely opened up a defence through some slick football. Leicester, Stoke, Arsenal and today saw that happen a couple of time with the rest being knock-downs, shots and crosses. But as I said, fair enough, different interpretations to different actions I suppose. I do agree about fielding the same players. Coherence and understanding between the players seems to be the least valued quality among fans hence the constant harping on about buying more. The best teams or shall I say, slickest teams, have played together for a significant period of time. Without familiarity in terms of tactics and personnel, fluid football is a very difficult thing to achieve even if you have top players.
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This has been one of the unexpected aspects of Mourinho so far, people always talk about how he doesn't use rotation and runs his teams into the ground, yet he's been the complete opposite here bar Ibra, Pogba and Bailly, everyone else is in and out. Now I could see that with the wide positions as no one has shone there bar Mata, however after the Feyenoord game I thought the attackers in that game played well enough to warrant another start, yet he ditched 2 of them which made no sense to me, same as playing Darmian at LB rather than Blind when he's counting on the fullback's to provide attacking width. I also get the strange feeling that he feels obligated to play Rashford regularly and that isn't helping the team or the player IMO.
 
Have been really dissapointed with Mourinho and all his excuses, but LvG can go and feck off. He played a soul destroying brand of football which I simply could not stand. Cannot see Mourinho finishing his contract or winning the title, but am so glad LvG is not our manager any more.
 
I have never thought LVG was as bad as many said. He brought some good players in and improved the team's overall play following the damage done by Moyes. He didn't take it to a level beyond that but neither has Mourinho so far. I just worry Jose is sticking to his guns just as much as LVG did, and it will cost him. He is not rebuilding now, he has a base from which to work from. When LVG joined we were in ruins.
 
Devil may care said:
This has been one of the unexpected aspects of Mourinho so far, people always talk about how he doesn't use rotation and runs his teams into the ground, yet he's been the complete opposite here bar Ibra, Pogba and Bailly, everyone else is in and out. Now I could see that with the wide positions as no one has shone there bar Mata, however after the Feyenoord game I thought the attackers in that game played well enough to warrant another start, yet he ditched 2 of them which made no sense to me, same as playing Darmian at LB rather than Blind when he's counting on the fullback's to provide attacking width. I also get the strange feeling that he feels obligated to play Rashford regularly and that isn't helping the team or the player IMO.
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Europa League has so of forced that plus he has not found his best 11 yet.
 
11101 said:
I have never thought LVG was as bad as many said. He brought some good players in and improved the team's overall play following the damage done by Moyes. He didn't take it to a level beyond that but neither has Mourinho so far. I just worry Jose is sticking to his guns just as much as LVG did, and it will cost him. He is not rebuilding now, he has a base from which to work from. When LVG joined we were in ruins.
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Spot on. Nice to know that some people get it. Some of us aren't impatient with Mourinho - we never wanted him in the first place for certain reasons. United needed stability after Moyes and shot itself in the foot by dumping Louis. I doubt he would have kept to his retirement plans, just like Sir Alex he probably would have enjoyed the challenge of staying on.
 
I'd give mourinho more time before asking this sort of question. If United are stil out of the top four and the title race come March/April, then I think it'd be appropriate for this question to be asked. If somebody could come up with Louis van Gaal's stats after 13 league games that'd give you something to compare.
 
Theonas said:
I actually don't think we are creating all that many chances apart from the Burnley game. We have more individual quality in the form of Pogba, Mata and Zlatan and we play the ball in the box quicker than before which results in more scrambles but this is more huffing and puffing rather than quality offensive football. Furthermore, Mourinho made it his mission throughout his career to make it all about results regardless of how. He mocked managers who talk about philosophy or have defined footballing principles like Wenger and Guardiola. A lot of his fans support that view which is fair enough even if I don't agree with it. The downside however is that if you choose to make it solely about results and pride yourself in delivering them no matter how, the second you don't win, you have nothing to argue your case.
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This. Your point about Mourinho lacking vision by no discernible footballing philosophy summarises why some of us are not fans and don't believe he will be the one to get United back on track. Sir Matt Busby had it, Sir Alex had it, Louis VG had it, even Tommy Docherty had a footballing vision although he never achieved his and the players' potential.
 
ryansgirl said:
This. Your point about Mourinho lacking vision by no discernible footballing philosophy summarises why some of us are not fans and don't believe he will be the one to get United back on track. Sir Matt Busby had it, Sir Alex had it, Louis VG had it, even Tommy Docherty had a footballing vision although he never achieved his and the players' potential.
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He has a discernable philosophy its just you can't discern it. Defensively he plays a compact back line with tucked in full backs and wingers providing support as an extra defender, with zonal marking, and a high press initially when energy levels are high to try to hit them on the transition, and sitting back compactly when energy needs to be conserved later on. Offensively he gives freedom of movement to the front 4, inverted wingers able to interchange with the 10, tries to play possession football around their last third with the press maintaining intensity, and two central midfielders to ensure control of the game. Its a philosophy which the players are more and more adjusting to and becoming clearer and clearer.
 
Jose has us playing more attractive football. The results will come. Chill.
 
Performances are better, but less points and worst start in 27 years. Shall we open up the debate again about as long as we win motto. Im very concerned Mourinho has made such a bad start. This is the test of his career no doubt about that. If we can win the league in the next 3 seasons it will be his greatest achievement because at the moment we are a top 6 side at best
 
Devil may care said:
In fairness I don't see how Mourinho can give them composure in front of goal, does Ibra really need Jose to teach him how to finish? Today alone saw Ibra, Rashford and Lingard all miss sitters, the points dropped at home are down to lack of clinical finishing, that's on the players.
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No it's on the managers because he picks the players. If we keep playing well but letting in goals, would you say "what can the manager do - defend for them?". The fact that were relying on Lingard and Rashford for winning us games us in itself sad. And it can of course be fixed by the manager.

Not that I'd have LVG instead. He was terrible as well.
 
Everyone's said it, but I'll chip in: Have you forgotten your performances? I watched one match of yours last season, turned it off at half time as I was bored out of my mind. If that was how you played most of the time this season has been an improvement in all ways bar the results, which actually have been largely the same compared to the second half of last season.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
No it's on the managers because he picks the players. If we keep playing well but letting in goals, would you say "what can the manager do - defend for them?". The fact that were relying on Lingard and Rashford for winning us games us in itself sad. And it can of course be fixed by the manager.

Not that I'd have LVG instead. He was terrible as well.
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Yes, if they were to blame for the goals through errors I'd blame the defenders, The players out there today have no excuse not to beat that shitty West Ham side, just as they have no excuse to miss the plate full of chances they have in the previous 3 home games, they aren't doing their jobs.
 
Around about time last year Van Gaal was an absolute wreck. He may not be considered a 'weak manager' but the pressure certainly got to him. At times it looked like he was going to cry.
 
Woodzy said:
Around about time last year Van Gaal was an absolute wreck. He may not be considered a 'weak manager' but the pressure certainly got to him. At times it looked like he was going to cry.
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This time last year half of the threads were people saying to stop moaning about Van Gaal since we were still in the title race.
 
Changing managers again isn't the answer. You only have to look at the majority of teams to realise this. The obvious exceptions are Chelsea and City but they both have an established side now that practically any manager could make a success of.
I think you have to stick with Mourinho. The last 15 months have not gone well for him but the 15 years previous to that weren't too bad so I'm sure he has an idea of how to turn it around.
 
Wooly Red said:
Everyone's said it, but I'll chip in: Have you forgotten your performances? I watched one match of yours last season, turned it off at half time as I was bored out of my mind. If that was how you played most of the time this season has been an improvement in all ways bar the results, which actually have been largely the same compared to the second half of last season.
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We are definitely much more entertaining this year.
 
Speedy30 said:
Changing managers again isn't the answer. You only have to look at the majority of teams to realise this. The obvious exceptions are Chelsea and City but they both have an established side now that practically any manager could make a success of.
I think you have to stick with Mourinho. The last 15 months have not gone well for him but the 15 years previous to that weren't too bad so I'm sure he has an idea of how to turn it around.
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You mean the Chelsea side that finished 10th last season and the City side that finished level on points to us last season?
 
I find that there is a big difference between LVG supporters and Mourinho supporters. LVG supporters accept that he was a flawed man who played boring football but they loved the way he handled the young players and they could see light at the end of the tunnel.
Now, many of Mourinho supports are ok but a few are pure sycophants in a Trump supporter mould. They believe he can do no wrong. They will get angry if you bring up his history with young players, they will swear that last year at Chelsea did not happen. I even saw someone blame LVG for the West ham loss.

The fact is, Mourinho was supposed to be a coach who brings instant success but he is failing with the the most expensive team on earth. That would be bad whichever way you try to spin it.
 
The BlackGaijin said:
I find that there is a big difference between LVG supporters and Mourinho supporters. LVG supporters accept that he was a flawed man who played boring football but they loved the way he handled the young players and they could see light at the end of the tunnel.
Now, many of Mourinho supports are ok but a few are pure sycophants in a Trump supporter mould. They believe he can do no wrong. They will get angry if you bring up his history with young players, they will swear that last year at Chelsea did not happen. I even saw someone blame LVG for the West ham loss.

The fact is, Mourinho was supposed to be a coach who brings instant success but he is failing with the the most expensive team on earth. That would be bad whichever way you try to spin it.
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He is failing isn't really saying anything. The season is a mere 13 games old with 25 to go. There is no trophy for being top of the table after 13.
 
Raoul said:
He is failing isn't really saying anything. The season is a mere 13 games old with 25 to go. There is no trophy for being top of the table after 13.
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Agreed, but the performance have pretty bad and the results worse. We, the Einsteins, should be able to analyze and criticize his performance so far surely.
 
Football under mourinho is infinitely more free flowing under mourinho. Adding Pogba and zlatan helped toward this but irrespective, it's definitely easy on the eye now

However, LvG could get results much easier than mourinho. In his two seasons, He always seemed to get results when all is lost, which mourinho isn't able to.

Another thing is I have worries how certain players who looked excellent under LvG look crap now. Martial, Shaw for instance. You could argue for herrera the other way but given a choice I'd take an on fire martial over an on fire herrera. Even de gea one could argue is a bit worse off this season (though that is still an excellent level)
 
The BlackGaijin said:
There were talks of a one year extention to make it easier for a giggs transition.Atleast that is what I heard.
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I remember those rumors too. Many of us thought that would be terrible for reasons that were explained to death.

EDIT: Even then, the mentioned positives of Giggs was that he would bring a Fergie-type of football back to the team, which is on the other side of the spectrum from the LVG philosophy. It wouldn't really be a continuation.
 
Hahao said:
Rashford is a super sub. He needs to play but shouldn't be starting. Lingard, in all honesty, I don't think anyone would be mad if he never played for us again. No one really thinks highly of him. Most agree that he is a squad player at best, most think he isn't United quality and I would be inclined to agree.
On the other hand Martial could become special, he is a real talent. And Mikhitarian is proven as well.
Jose's team selection is probably what has cost us some 10 points so far. All those draws vs Burnley, Stoke, games where we didn't score...well...might have helped if we actually played our best players.
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We don't know what is going on in training, he is the one seeing them not us. There has to be a reason for his choices. Just because Rashford and Lingard haven't been great, that doesn't mean by default Martial, Mikhi would have done better. The fact Lingard is beating them to a starting spot says a lot in itself.
 
Hahao said:
Rashford is a super sub. He needs to play but shouldn't be starting. Lingard, in all honesty, I don't think anyone would be mad if he never played for us again. No one really thinks highly of him. Most agree that he is a squad player at best, most think he isn't United quality and I would be inclined to agree.
On the other hand Martial could become special, he is a real talent. And Mikhitarian is proven as well.
Jose's team selection is probably what has cost us some 10 points so far. All those draws vs Burnley, Stoke, games where we didn't score...well...might have helped if we actually played our best players.
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I logged in just to reply to this post.

Disagree completely. Rashford became starter for us under LVG. Thing is we need more in our #9 in hol dup play, occupy the defender and presence in central area as well as toughness... Zlatan provided just that but he is deficient in other area like pace, mobility,... that needs the help of wingers.

We don't have "real" wingers. All our make shift wingers have flaw, problems. Rashford is not a wiz dribbler. He has lapse in defensive phase. Lingard makes good run in pocket off space but offer very little all around. Mata lack of pace, presence, and like to drift inside. Martial is lazy in movement and also lost his form. Mkhi has not gotten going. Memphis being Memphis. Young being Young. Rooney is better somewhere else in his new positions (One week he is like Beckham, One week he is#6, #10, #9...). Martial since the summer (EURO included) has not showed how anything of his best last season. He should not be played by reputation especially he is this young. Mkhi too was out of sync with the team (City game). They're not starting rightfully due to their bad performance.

Yes the poor performance has cost us a lot of points, but not because we don't play X, Y, Z players, it's more because due to players underperformed as well as they should and let the team down, that lost us points.
 
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