Really, where are we now?

We are at the very start of a season. New and injured players to come in and settle in. No need to overreact to all the noise. Better to measure the team at the 3 month point, then 6 month point.
 
Shakesy said:
Good luck with that
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Of course it's Manchester United, there will always be noise, but surely all this Greenwood/Antony/Sancho stuff will have died down a bit in a month or two. Surely. Just hoping it won't be replaced with new scandals.
 
Behind city, Liverpool and Arsenal. Ahead of the rest. Capable of pushing Arsenal and Liverpool, but behind city naturally. Top 9 in Europe (Madrid and Bayern clear ahead in the tier below City but above the other prem sides, similar tier to Barca and PSG and Napoli).

Getting Amrabat is huge as we have added a deep midfielder who loves to get on the ball and pass it while also being press resistant, can press really effectively but also cover for casemiro when needed. This enables us to use either Bruno or Mount on the right, giving us a very good press throughout the team especially with hojlund in as well. Way more physicality, and now our best 11 is pretty much just Rashford who is a bit useless defensively or in physical duels which is fine. Using Bruno or Mount on the right now works better as we have an actual target playing up top. Someone who will occupy defenders, fight for the ball, hold up the ball, etc.

My biggest concern with the squad right now is defensive fitness. With Varanes, Shaw and Malacia out for an extended period of time, we are starting a RB at left back or the emergency loan player, and then desperately need Lindelof and Martinez to essentially stay fit and play every game. And Lindelof is relatively injury prone anyway. So that's not great. Likely we'll see Maguire next to Martinez which is a partnership with 0 recovery pace when someone runs in behind and could seriously impact us.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Of course it's Manchester United, there will always be noise, but surely all this Greenwood/Antony/Sancho stuff will have died down a bit in a month or two. Surely. Just hoping it won't be replaced with new scandals.
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Think there’ll always be issues when you have young guys being paid £millions in wages. Often the case young guys don’t know how to handle that kind of money.
 
There’s some quite optimistic views on here. I would say, based on what we saw before the break, that we look like a team fighting for a top 6 spot.

However, we have Amrabat and Hojlund to come in, who should strengthen us. Hopefully we can comfortably get top 5 but I can’t see us challenging at the very top.
 
4-5 wins in a trot and things will be different..
We just need to settle and start winning a few
 
Doracle said:
There’s some quite optimistic views on here. I would say, based on what we saw before the break, that we look like a team fighting for a top 6 spot.

However, we have Amrabat and Hojlund to come in, who should strengthen us. Hopefully we can comfortably get top 5 but I can’t see us challenging at the very top.
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We aren't challenging .. nobody is challenging ..
City will win it .. it is just who will be top 4
 
Castia said:
Last season was a step forward and this feels like 2 steps back (although it’s early days)

I will say that Mount, Amrabat and Hojlund could completely change the dynamic of the team though I’m quietly optimistic

Off the field it’s about as bad as it’s been. Club is still run like a circus, the finances have finally caught up with us after 10 years of spunking money away, players accused of various acts, players that are essentially transfer listed still getting minutes at the club, the Sancho situation etc the list is never ending

So to round it all up this farce of a club seems to be getting even worse
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Well, I must say that your optimism is VERY quiet.
 
I do hope that i am wrong but lots of things are pointing to our classic second season hangover.
New manager comes and in first season everything looks great; new players becoming fan favourites, manager is praised for being ruthless, football looks great, results are very good, DoF and CEO are doing "some new and great stuff", we are all optimistic for next season and we all think that "we only need 2 or 3 new players" to finish (another) rebuilding.
And then 2nd season comes. We start to realise that manager has some big flaws, that new signings actually are not good enough, players from previous manager become deadwood and all of sudden race for top 4 becomes our main goal.


When we win next 5 games with Hojlund killing it then i will write another post how everything is great.:)
 
Borninthe80ts said:
It’s a weird place we are in for sure. I think sometimes we forget this is only the second season of 4 year cycle. We saw some good progress last year thus expectations may have risen.
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That's the big problem. It looks like it's going to take us about 3 years to get the dross out and get in a good squad, assuming everything is done perfectly. And then we'll have one season before the cycle is over and we're rebuilding again. Seems like it's the 25/26 season or bust.

Borninthe80ts said:
In purely football teams I think there’s cause for optimism but it’s difficult to see at the minute with so many injuries and some core players form fluctuating. I believe we have improved the squad overall but just haven’t had our 20 best players fit at the same time so far.
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I'll settle for 12. We're not City. 20 is never going to happen.

Borninthe80ts said:
However with all the outside the club or non footballing issues present, for me it’s probably distracting but mainly creates a negative perception. I believe Ten has shown that he is capable of dealing with complicated issues and still generate good performances from the team. The sale has definitely affected the running of the club, and I’ll say once this situation has been resolved we will have a clearer picture of the long term. Player issues that still exist will be easier to resolve, ie signing replacements or pay offs and allow the manager to make the team more his own.
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There was never going to be a sale. Just the leeches trying to get an idea of our market value.
 
justsomebloke said:
I realise this is a thread title that constitutes an open invitation to all sorts of vague bellyaching, of which there is probably more than enough on this forum already. But I have a slightly more precise observation.

I don't think I can recall a time when I felt more uncertain about exactly where this team are, and how it will go from here. Everything seems to pile up in that direction:

- Results so far: 2 home wins against weak teams, 2 away losses to strong teams. Is that good, bad, okay? Promising, worrying?
- Team performances so far: One bad and one atrocious half against Wolves, one good and one bad half against Spurs, 3 1/2 minutes from hell followed by two very good halves against Forest, and against Arsenal two....what, exactly? We didn't create much in either half and lost by two goals, but some aspects of our game looked more effective than before and it was tight almost until the end. So, our normal level is....what?
- Individual performances: Who is Casemiro now, the player we saw for most of last season, or the player we've been seeing this season? You could mention other names too.
- Squad: 3 new players who have yet to play a full half. What will they bring?
- Injuries: 3/4 of the defence out, as well as the midfielder (Mount) who was supposed to change the way we play, but didn't succeed very well in his first outings. In addition to both of our strikers just recently returning from injuries (with Martial looking like the lack of a preseason is really hurting his game, at least for now).
- The Antony situation: How long will we be without him? Will he return at all? If he does, how will the situation affect him?
- The Sancho situation: Whatever you think of ETHs handling (and I for one am behind him), what will be the effect on the team of a public row between the manager and the team's highest-paid player? Will Sancho continue to figure, and if he does, what will he bring?
- The Greenwood situation: How's the case and the club's handling of it affecting squad mood?
- The club sale situation: Is it off? Will the unclarity drag on? Will it happen? How's it affecting decision-making, and the general mood inside the club?
- The Maguire situation: How will it affect the squad to have a former captain stripped of the armband and warming the bench? When he gets his chances, will he take them? With the current mood among fans and in the press, it's not exactly going to take much for him to generate a massive negative feedback.
- Preseason and fitness: The team has at times not looked match ready, and there have been worrying mumbles about an overly strenuous US tour undertaken for commercial reasons. Is that going to right itself, or have we seen the first stages of a serious issue?


Between all of this, my predominant feeling is one of having absolutely no clue how this is going to develop. I think there's a genuine chance the season could go to shit. There's also a genuine chance it could turn out very well. And while all of that that could legitimately be called a "no shit Sherlock" observation, I can't think of a time in recent years where there's been so many reasons to be this uncertain. How are others feeling about this?
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We have no idea where we are because of all the moving pieces - Antony's availability, whether Hojlund will come good or just be developmental project, how the likes of Amrabat and the other newbies integrate into ETH's tactics, how the Sancho drama will unfold etc.

Encouraging for ETH is that he took a calamitous start last year and somehow parlayed it into a top 3 finish and CL spot, so there's always hope.
 
If Garnacho's goal against Arsenal stood then I think we'd be in a much more confident position. The only game we've been truly awful throughout was the Wolves game, in the others there was some signs of life.

I'm cautiously optimistic that with Hojlund and Amrabat coming in that the dynamic of the team will shift and everything will start to click. Can only hope I guess.
 
erikcred said:
That's the big problem. It looks like it's going to take us about 3 years to get the dross out and get in a good squad, assuming everything is done perfectly. And then we'll have one season before the cycle is over and we're rebuilding again. Seems like it's the 25/26 season or bust.



I'll settle for 12. We're not City. 20 is never going to happen.



There was never going to be a sale. Just the leeches trying to get an idea of our market value.
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The four year cycle is just an outline for me. Of course it can go either way before and I think Ten is making decent to good progress in clearing players out. The first year you give people a second chance. The second you get rid of those you need too. We were close to clearing maybe another 4 the window just gone so for me I’m pleased enough. Especially considering how many we had to get rid of.

20 includes all rotating players and fringe youngsters, ie Mainoo and Hannibal.

Also I’m not sure with the sale as I gave up following the news. Either way the effects the same.
 
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My big worry is Ten Hag

We are an absolute circus....you think we are moving forward then someone drops an issue in his lap

it feels like his hands are tied in so many ways

If we aren't careful he will be gone
 
It's very unlucky to spend over 150 million in Anthony and Sancho to lose them for probably nothing.
Last couple of seasons have been pretty bad in terms of luck. Greenwood, CR7, Sancho and Anthony made a mess without any fault from the club.
 
I honestly think you're laying a good foundation, so long as you (a) show some patience and (b) manage to find--or develop--a good sporting director (or whatever the title is at United) who works well for ETH.

ETH came to a situation not that dissimilar from Arteta. Bloated squad with misfit players for his preferred style, on huge wages that make them hard to move on. Needing to clear the dead wood, and install new tactics, while at the same time being pragmatic enough to win enough games to keep a demanding fanbase at bay while the process unfolds. Not gonna lie. The two 8th place finishes sucked. It seemed unacceptable at times, and I texted #ArtertaOut more times than I can count. But the tactical system is fully installed now. Edu has stopped being the butt of transfer jokes and started to consistently deliver players who fit what Arteta wants to do. And while it'll still take a minor miracle to overhaul City any given season, I can't help but love the progress so far.

So I think you're moving in the right direction. If you show some patience during the inevitable bumps in the road, and if you find ETH someone like what Overmars was for him at Ajax, you'll be pretty damned happy in 2-3 years.
 
We will not finish within top four places this season. I don't know how to react to that.

(Fifth gets a Champions League place this season, which may come to our rescue.)
 
TheLord said:
We will not finish within top four places this season. I don't know how to react to that.

(Fifth gets a Champions League place this season, which may come to our rescue.)
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Well top 4 you never know ..
We need to get more points than Spurs and Chelsea and we are on top 4..
 
VP89 said:
I actually think wel go on a very strong run soon.
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I think we'll go on a great run at some point, but I'd be a little surprised if it happens soon. The international break is normally the ideal time for a reset, but we have had two big first team controversies during it and will be going into a couple of very tough fixtures after it. The Palace double header up to the derby looks good on paper mind you. If we cope with Brighton and Bayern well after all this noise then yeah, a run could be on the cards.

Antony's loss is a big concern. Whatever you think of his overall performance at United so far, he has been absolutely central to Ten Hag's gameplan during our best periods. Nobody in the squad offers what he does.
 
didz said:
I think we'll go on a great run at some point, but I'd be a little surprised if it happens soon. The international break is normally the ideal time for a reset, but we have had two big first team controversies during it and will be going into a couple of very tough fixtures after it. The Palace double header up to the derby looks good on paper mind you. If we cope with Brighton and Bayern well after all this noise then yeah, a run could be on the cards.

Antony's loss is a big concern. Whatever you think of his overall performance at United so far, he has been absolutely central to Ten Hag's gameplan during our best periods. Nobody in the squad offers what he does.
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I think post Brighton we have really good fixtures. We also welcome back Mount soon, Amrabat should be up to speed along with Hojlund and all of a sudden the team is transformed.
 
I guess we did not progress much from last season yet, mostly Onana / Mount / Hojlund not yet fully integrated or just injured. and key players like Martinez / Casemiro / Rashy are yet fully back to their level .
But squad wise , we are more complete and collect all needed elements to play the ETH ball . For that, ETH should have no excuse but at least start playing with his way. No more compromise or "temporary fix" tactics . I'm OK not winning tile this season, but I expect we could have some dominant performances against strong team with our style .
We could keep complaining Glazer's ownership , but we did spend big money in last two summer windows to back the coach up. It's the time to tell ETH and Murtough 's work and their true color in this season.
 
I'd say one good period of form to make a deep run into the UCL or a cup and probably in the running to get a qualification for the UCL.
 
I think a (positive) resolution of the ownership situation would have significant effect on everything else. It is hanging over the club at the moment and affects everything. The patience afforded to the team on field would be completely different if everyone saw that new owners, willing to make changes and investments, were coming in.
 
One step forwards, one step back kind of season, always thought it would be. I expect us to get more or less the same points and goals scored as last season. I expect to see progress in the overall squad composition, our ability to play from the back, to handle the opposition press, how we press from the front and how we hold possession against the better teams. But it won't be an even improvement and different aspects of the team will get better and worse over the season.

My main hope is that we see a handful of complete performances over the season that will give the fans a taster of what's to come.
 
It's really hard to just focus on the pitch when the club is run as some sort of bland, social media-driven content generator.

Who knows what will happen if we have a run of bad results? Probably some lip service to another Tory-esque cabinet reshuffle, maybe give Phil Jones the DoF role, even sack ETH if a young, pep-in-his-step manager emerges with a quippy short first name that you can make shexshy with a -ball suffix. Yarriball, Stu-ball, Rayball. And then we'll have a cool new manager who has a bunch of players signed by the last guy, a bunch of square pegs in round holes, and he'll have to buy his own players in (or trust DoF Phil's vision). And we will still offer Martial a contract extension 'so as to protect the book value of the player'.
 
quadrant said:
One step forwards, one step back kind of season, always thought it would be. I expect us to get more or less the same points and goals scored as last season. I expect to see progress in the overall squad composition, our ability to play from the back, to handle the opposition press, how we press from the front and how we hold possession against the better teams. But it won't be an even improvement and different aspects of the team will get better and worse over the season.

My main hope is that we see a handful of complete performances over the season that will give the fans a taster of what's to come.
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That is all I want.

At least one or two performances against top-6 teams (even at home) where we boss most of the game and show what we are capable of at our best. I don't even care if we lose because of a couple of deflected goals or something. I just want to see a proper front-foot performance over 75 minutes, not 20 minutes or one half.

Couple of years ago, Arsenal dominated City with the ball, basically playing them off the park, only losing to a last minute Rodri goal.
Even Liverpool in Klopp's first season, though they finished 9th or something, beat City 2-0 or 3-0 away with quick fire goals, showing what they would go on to look like under him. In these games, it was clear what these two teams would look like if they were able to execute their plans and got some luck in a few crucial moments.

Hopefully we can show something like that this season. I can't point to a single performance under ETH so far and say this is what we could be like regularly once we have the right players.
 
justsomebloke said:
Between all of this, my predominant feeling is one of having absolutely no clue how this is going to develop. I think there's a genuine chance the season could go to shit. There's also a genuine chance it could turn out very well. And while all of that that could legitimately be called a "no shit Sherlock" observation, I can't think of a time in recent years where there's been so many reasons to be this uncertain. How are others feeling about this?
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Excited. As you say this could become a poor season or a very good one, or somewhere in between. I say great, but this is from the perspective of someone who increasingly looks at football as merely a form of entertainment now rather than something that defines my mood for the whole week.

I'm generally optimistic about this season. We haven't really had any taste at all of what this team is right now, for various reasons, but I think it'll be better than last seasons once we're up to speed
 
I think as long as we can still manage to finish top 5, that would be fine.

There are always something to look forward to:

- Hojlund leading our front line
- Rashford to pick his form from last season, and his partnership with Hojlund
- Garnacho to grow more with his role this season
- introduction of Mainoo, our future star midfielder
- Amrabat Casemiro Bruno partnership, we could start playing like a proper team?

And there might be something to worry about:

- Antony and Sancho situations
- long term injuries of Diallo, Shaw etc
- CB situation with Maguire getting more game time whereas Varane getting those injuries from time to time
- beginning of the decline of Casemiro?
- lacking balance with playing Bruno and Mount starting together
- we still can't pass the ball around, having spent so much money on new investments
- Glazer still here
 
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Right now there are 2 superior teams: City and Arsenal, and it does not seem in the short term that United can be above them.
City have a better sporting structure, without a doubt. Arsenal a young team, with quality and with many automatisms.

Liverpool has begun a major reconstruction and it is too early to know its evolution.

The Chelsea thing has never happened, so many changes and spending. For my taste a team too young and without much experience in fighting for important titles.

Newcastle seems to have a good project and very rich owners. Over time, it is normal for them to consolidate in the top-4.

And United? First of all, the club needs an elite sports structure, mainly to sign promising players at a good price and strengthen the academy. From there there will be options to compete for titles, meanwhile the goal will be to fight for the top-4.
 
I think it really depends on how Amrabat and Hojlund bed in and perform. Those two will significantly impact our fortunes either way. Antony suspension could be a blessing in disguise in terms of one of the young kids having a chance to actually produce in that position.
 
We're at the point where the club is blasting "Take me home country road" while the fans are singing "Take me home United road". The lack of harmony is clear to see.
 
I dont think Amrabat and Hojlund is the missing piece. We're so far away from there.

We still cant string 5 passes where and when it matters. You wont go far relying on individual luck and counter attacking football.

Casemiro soon losing his leg like Matic. At best he'll give us another 2 years. Playing in midfield needs lots of stamina.

Hojlund is still new and far from finished material.

We'll be lucky to finish 4th this season
 
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