Rasmussen sacked by team: All Tour De France stuff here

Ruben said:
Should have given up two hours ago.
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I have been involved in cycling for over 20 years. I know people in that world. I even have a copy of the fecking UCI form they have to fill in to state there whereabouts. You on the other hand, have probably never even ridden a bike. I'm off to bed, good night to you.
 
Rams said:
I have been involved in cycling for over 20 years. I know people in that world. I even have a copy of the fecking UCI form they have to fill in to state there whereabouts. You on the other hand, have probably never even ridden a bike. I'm off to bed, good night to you.
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The sign of defeat, going on about me not riding enough bikes.

If you have been in cycling so long you should have known that the bikers national teams also do tests. You should have known that he had his licenses abroad.

And for Gods sake you shouldn`t have called me a shitspouter for claiming that Rabobank were considering his position when they kick him out few hours later!

I have given you facts, backed them up with evidence and your only defence has been: "I was not aware of that" or "Eurosport is crap".

Give me one link to something that says that only UCI can do tests. One.
 
All in one place now.

Maybe we will end up with an Aussie winnner for the first time.

So not all doom and gloom.
 
I saw an interview a couple of nights ago where Rasmussen wriggled and wormed under questioning before admitting he'd been warned four times, twice each by two different authorities, and brushed it off as a fault of the system being over complicated. That's twice by the Danes who have banned him from thier Olympic team, and twice by the UCI.

I thought then I hope Contador puts one over him after the way he reneged on the deal they seemed to strike on the climb.
 
ffs
the whole world knew he was missed and warned , and they knew it before the tour started. so he is close wining this circus then somebody puts pressure on the team and now they sack him.....
what e fecking joke....
 
Thanks Spinoza for your detailed replies to my questions. Of course i am now further confused with the Rasmussen thing. At least the scenery is still great
 
utdalltheway said:
you're kidding, right?
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No. They`ve never been on the podium before.

And both McEwen and Tom Boonen have claimed that the only one of the all rounders they really believe is clean is Cadel Evans. He would be a good winner. So would Contador though, he`s been impressing as well.
 
Ruben said:
I still enjoy cycling, but probably to a lesser and lesser degree. All of my previous favourites are gone. I will never accept that the sport and doping go hand in hand, don`t care if it`s been like that for a long time.
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Fair enough - I never really cared about the doping, since I know that it probably made things harder, not easier for the cyclists.
Ruben said:
I honestly think that most winners post 1990 have been drugged. Not only the winners of course, but the sport has just been full of it. And of course it gives you and advantage, don`t be naive. No rider would take the career-ending risk of doping if there wasn`t a fat advantage at the end of the rainbow.
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It doesn't give you that much of an advantage, that's the point. You still have to get out there and cycle. And the skill that you have, both physical and mental, will probably outweigh the effect of the doping.

Anyway, the winners since 1990 have been Indurain, Riis, Ulrich, Pantani, Armstrong and Landis. Landis, Riis, Pantani and possibly Ulrich were doping, but there's never been a word said about Big Mig and there's never been any evidence that Armstrong was doping. So talent wins over doping, 12 out of 17 times anyway.
Ruben said:
In international sports at top level the differances are small. Doping will enhance your performance that extra notch you`ll need. Landis was tough as hell and was a special rider and person, defo the kind of rider that could have won a stage like that from time till time. He was however on drugs, maybe not stamima enhancing but performance enhancing nonetheless. Won`t adreanalin give your muscles some extra juice? I guess that would come in handy.
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Testosterone is a steroid that helps you gain muscle mass if you take an excess of it. Obviously you have to do it way before the race, not during the race. Any benefit that Landis derived from it was mental - a comfort blanket if you like.

Ruben said:
Those two let him go. But he distanced the 25 or so other riders in the tete group. They sure as hell didn`t let him go. Some off them were good strong riders. And so what if it didn`t matter in the all over standings. He cheated- him being 30 minutes behind the yellow jersey doesn`t change nor jutify that.Those two let him go. But he distanced the 25 or so other riders in the tete group. They sure as hell didn`t let him go. Some off them were good strong riders. And so what if it didn`t matter in the all over standings. He cheated- him being 30 minutes behind the yellow jersey doesn`t change nor jutify that.
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It changes everything.

The riders with Vino were allowed to chase him down for their own individual glory, not their team's. They were released to give some publicity to their sponsor, not because they were trying to win. Cycling is a team sport, not an individual one. It doesn't matter that Vino cheated, because he didn't derive any advantage from it. Of course cheating is wrong, but cheating is also part of the Tour. I'm not bothered, since I wasn't even interested in Vino breaking away when I watched that stage.
 
Ruben said:
On another note spinoza...


What are your thoughts about Rasmussen?

Brilliant rider for sure in the mountains and was impressive today, but:

1. Lives in Italy but has his cycling license in Monaco and Mexico -those two countries associations has never tested him.

2. Has received four warnings from the drug controllers for not stating where he is at that given time.

3. Was in Mexico for two or three weeks prior to Tour de France, and noone was able to get hold of him when they wanted to test him.

4. Has not been tested outside of competition this year. At all.

5. Rabobank aren`t even sure if they want to renew his contract.

Looks grim IMO.
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He's probably been the victim of some nasty rumours - they sacked him based on the word of a single person after all.

I think it's a bit of a shame - Rasmussen has been riding well. Honest to god, some of the comments flying around about how he was "suspiciously" fast yesterday are ridiculous, probably from people who don't watch the sport. Rasmussen's trademark is to keep going. And going and going and going. Until the peloton is blown apart and his rivals crack. Then he pulls out some acceleration in the last climb if it's a mountain top finish. In other words, exactly what happened yesterday.

Still, not really bothered. The value of the Tour for me is in the drama and the kind of effort that the riders put in. Even if all 120 riders left are injecting EPO day in day out, as long as it produces stages like yesterday's, I'll be watching it. Contador is to my mind a slightly more worthy winner than Rasmussen anyway - I always thought to win the Tour you need to be good at 2 out of 3 things, and when a pure climber or time triallist wins, I feel a bit cheated.
 
Let's put it this way - cycling fans will love the Tour whether or not the riders dope. But as long as the riders do, they'll not win many new fans. I wish that people commenting (on other fora as well as on here) would take some time to find out about the sport though. Most people don't even know it's a team sport.
 
I heard David Millar got in the act too, now what gives him the right to hold a moral high ground on this one? Bloody hypocrite wasn't he suspended for actually having illegal substances (dope) in his system?
 
Eto'odinho said:
I heard David Millar got in the act too, now what gives him the right to hold a moral high ground on this one? Bloody hypocrite wasn't he suspended for actually having illegal substances (dope) in his system?
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He did his time.

He's paid the price though - he's nowhere as good a time triallist as he was with the dope, as a result of 2 years missed training. And he was an indifferent climber and sprinter at best - never the potential tour winner the British media made him out to be.

I'll tell you who was good enough to win without dope, doped, and still didn't win - Alex Zulle. But he had the misfortune to ride in an era that Lance Armstrong dominated.
 
spinoza said:
He did his time.

He's paid the price though - he's nowhere as good a time triallist as he was with the dope, as a result of 2 years missed training. And he was an indifferent climber and sprinter at best - never the potential tour winner the British media made him out to be.

I'll tell you who was good enough to win without dope, doped, and still didn't win - Alex Zulle. But he had the misfortune to ride in an era that Lance Armstrong dominated.
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Yeah I remember staying up late in the 90s to watch reruns of Tour de France, Zulle was always good in the mountains BUT for me the best was Miguel Indurain
 
Zulle admitted to taking EPO with the rest of the Festina team (w.e.o. virenque..) in 98. Or maybe I should shut up and leave all expert comments to Ruben.
 
spinoza said:
Fair enough - I never really cared about the doping, since I know that it probably made things harder, not easier for the cyclists.

Fair. We have different views about that.

It doesn't give you that much of an advantage, that's the point. You still have to get out there and cycle. And the skill that you have, both physical and mental, will probably outweigh the effect of the doping.

All riders need to go out and ride. Those on drugs will have an advantage, big or small. I`m not saying that you can achieve anything without the talent and mental strength, but you`ll have an advantage nonetheless. That`s cheating.

Anyway, the winners since 1990 have been Indurain, Riis, Ulrich, Pantani, Armstrong and Landis. Landis, Riis, Pantani and possibly Ulrich were doping, but there's never been a word said about Big Mig and there's never been any evidence that Armstrong was doping. So talent wins over doping, 12 out of 17 times anyway.

The reason there is no evidence is because science hadn`t caught up with the cheaters yet. Bjarne Riis was never caught, he admitted it himself. Maybe Lance will do the same one day, who knows. He was still a great rider though.

Testosterone is a steroid that helps you gain muscle mass if you take an excess of it. Obviously you have to do it way before the race, not during the race. Any benefit that Landis derived from it was mental - a comfort blanket if you like.

I`m no expert on the effects of testo, but I fail to believe that a rider going for glory and the yellow jersey would jeopardise it all for a "comfort blanket". No way.


It changes everything.

The riders with Vino were allowed to chase him down for their own individual glory, not their team's. They were released to give some publicity to their sponsor, not because they were trying to win. Cycling is a team sport, not an individual one. It doesn't matter that Vino cheated, because he didn't derive any advantage from it. Of course cheating is wrong, but cheating is also part of the Tour. I'm not bothered, since I wasn't even interested in Vino breaking away when I watched that stage.
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We feel differently about doping obviously, but I am not going to discuss that any further. I do however believe that people like you who "accept" the drug culture are a part of the problem. If people within and outside of the sport accept it, it will never change.

And while the interest for the Tour is still strong, I heard on BBC yesterday that the spectator numbers for the spring classics had gone down about 70%. So people are starting to get fed up. And that`s a good thing- when people stop watching, sponsors pull out and teams will understand that something needs to be done.
 
It's still not over... It's not unthinkable that Evans will make those 2 minutes up in Saturday's TT. The course is as flat as a pancake, almost 60K long. That will suit Evans.
However, I suspect Contador is a good enough in the TT to defend his lead.
 
Rams said:
Zulle admitted to taking EPO with the rest of the Festina team (w.e.o. virenque..) in 98. Or maybe I should shut up and leave all expert comments to Ruben.
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Feel free to be the expert Rams. Just don`t say I`m talking shit when all I said was true. It`s clear for everyone to see in previous pages that I was right and you were wrong.

And the timing for your "Rabobank will never throw Rasmussen remark" was priceless!
 
Rams said:
It's still not over... It's not unthinkable that Evans will make those 2 minutes up in Saturday's TT. The course is as flat as a pancake, almost 60K long. That will suit Evans.
However, I suspect Contador is a good enough in the TT to defend his lead.
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I`m very unsure about what Contador can do on a flat time trial. As you said it`s still completely open. My moneys on Evans though.
 
Ruben said:
We feel differently about doping obviously, but I am not going to discuss that any further. I do however believe that people like you who "accept" the drug culture are a part of the problem. If people within and outside of the sport accept it, it will never change.

And while the interest for the Tour is still strong, I heard on BBC yesterday that the spectator numbers for the spring classics had gone down about 70%. So people are starting to get fed up. And that`s a good thing- when people stop watching, sponsors pull out and teams will understand that something needs to be done.
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How on earth can they record whether or not the amount of spectaors has gone down by 70 %, when people are stading along the public roads of a 230k course?????????
 
Ruben said:
I`m very unsure about what Contador can do on a flat time trial. As you said it`s still completely open. My moneys on Evans though.
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He won the TT in the Paris-Nice race this year. I think the course was pretty flat on that occassion. Obviously Paris Nice is different from the tour, but it proves Contador can do a fine TT.
 
spinoza said:
He's probably been the victim of some nasty rumours - they sacked him based on the word of a single person after all.

I think it's a bit of a shame - Rasmussen has been riding well. Honest to god, some of the comments flying around about how he was "suspiciously" fast yesterday are ridiculous, probably from people who don't watch the sport. Rasmussen's trademark is to keep going. And going and going and going. Until the peloton is blown apart and his rivals crack. Then he pulls out some acceleration in the last climb if it's a mountain top finish. In other words, exactly what happened yesterday.

Still, not really bothered. The value of the Tour for me is in the drama and the kind of effort that the riders put in. Even if all 120 riders left are injecting EPO day in day out, as long as it produces stages like yesterday's, I'll be watching it. Contador is to my mind a slightly more worthy winner than Rasmussen anyway - I always thought to win the Tour you need to be good at 2 out of 3 things, and when a pure climber or time triallist wins, I feel a bit cheated.
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If he was in Mexico he would have filled out a form and would also have a date stamp in his passport- this according to the Mexican embassy in Denmark. It would be easy to prove for him. I mean show some plane tickets or something. Rabo probably know a lot more than we do anyway.
 
Rams said:
How on earth can they record whether or not the amount of spectaors has gone down by 70 %, when people are stading along the public roads of a 230k course?????????
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Not in the Tour. It was in the spring classics. And I`m not sure if he meant spectators or TV viewers. But it was not the Tour, it was the one day classics.
 
Rams said:
He won the TT in the Paris-Nice race this year. I think the course was pretty flat on that occassion. Obviously Paris Nice is different from the tour, but it proves Contador can do a fine TT.
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It does. I`m looking forward to Saturday.
 
Ruben said:
If he was in Mexico he would have filled out a form and would also have a date stamp in his passport- this according to the Mexican embassy in Denmark. It would be easy to prove for him. I mean show some plane tickets or something. Rabo probably know a lot more than we do anyway.
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He's lying. His (now ex) very good friend Sorenson told Theo de Rooy what Cassani told Sorenson. He's hiding something.
 
Rams said:
He's lying. His (now ex) very good friend Sorenson told Theo de Rooy what Cassani told Sorenson. He's hiding something.
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Aye. Don`t think Rabo would drop him if they weren`t sure. Money lost from winning, Rasmussen could sue and so on. He is hiding something. Will be interesting to see what UCI will do after the Tour. He isn`t caught for anything. Maybe a 6 month/1 year ban or something. He`ll be back though, probably lots of Eastern European or Spanish and Italian teams that would want him.
 
Ruben said:
All riders need to go out and ride. Those on drugs will have an advantage, big or small. I`m not saying that you can achieve anything without the talent and mental strength, but you`ll have an advantage nonetheless. That`s cheating.
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It won't be much of an advantage. To put it another way, any advantage that the dope gives would be outweighed by how much you eat on the day, whether or not you're afraid, how nervous you are, level of dehydration, etc. And if you take EPO, you still have to survive a slow heart beat.

Ruben said:
The reason there is no evidence is because science hadn`t caught up with the cheaters yet. Bjarne Riis was never caught, he admitted it himself. Maybe Lance will do the same one day, who knows. He was still a great rider though.
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I doubt that Lance doped. There have always been suspicions about Riis, because he came out of nowhere to win the race, but Lance was always tagged as a potential Tour champ. He did have cancer along the way, and his physique changed markedly, but no dope does that.

Ruben said:
I`m no expert on the effects of testo, but I fail to believe that a rider going for glory and the yellow jersey would jeopardise it all for a "comfort blanket". No way.
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Landis was 20 minutes down on Oscar Pereiro, in potentially his last race. Landis has had osteonecrosis of the hip joint for years, and he badly needed a hip replacement, since the ball of the joint was grinding against the side of the socket. By the way, he managed the pain by riding so much that the ball carved out its own groove on the edge of the socket...

Anyway, he wasn't sure he would ever be able to ride competitively again after his hip replacement, because they haven't yet made something that can stand up to the stress. So it was his last ever chance to win the Tour, and he was 20 minutes down because he was dehydrated and cracked in the previous stage (something pretty silly, but happens occasionally). He needed to pull something spectacular out of the bag the next day. Maybe he decided he needed a little chemical help to push him along, I don't know. But if I were under that kind of pressure, I'd be self medicating with alcohol. He just did it with testosterone.

Again, yes, cheating is wrong, and he shouldn't be doing it. But did he derive an advantage from it? Maybe a little one - he felt reassured that he had the ability to ride an incredible ride. Not much. Do people who condemn him understand why he did it? Not usually.

Ruben said:
We feel differently about doping obviously, but I am not going to discuss that any further. I do however believe that people like you who "accept" the drug culture are a part of the problem. If people within and outside of the sport accept it, it will never change.
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I don't think it's even a problem. It's only a problem because people think that the sport should be clean, while I can't think of anything in human interaction that is ever "clean" or "fair". People are cnuts, and they wouldn't be such hypocrites if they admitted it. But that's by the by, and comes from my miserable outlook on life.
Ruben said:
And while the interest for the Tour is still strong, I heard on BBC yesterday that the spectator numbers for the spring classics had gone down about 70%. So people are starting to get fed up. And that`s a good thing- when people stop watching, sponsors pull out and teams will understand that something needs to be done.
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It doesn't really change my enjoyment of the sport, so I can't say I condemn it. But I really couldn't care less.
 
Ruben said:
Nope. All three can win. Pretty sure Evans will be second or first though. Could easily be

1. Evans¨
2. Levi
3. Contador
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If there was one more mountain stage, I reckon Contador would take it.

But it's more likely a toss up between Evans and Contador. Leipheimer will only win it if he can overtake Contador by some miracle, otherwise he'll have to ride for Contador.
 
spinoza said:
It won't be much of an advantage. To put it another way, any advantage that the dope gives would be outweighed by how much you eat on the day, whether or not you're afraid, how nervous you are, level of dehydration, etc. And if you take EPO, you still have to survive a slow heart beat.



I doubt that Lance doped. There have always been suspicions about Riis, because he came out of nowhere to win the race, but Lance was always tagged as a potential Tour champ. He did have cancer along the way, and his physique changed markedly, but no dope does that.



Landis was 20 minutes down on Oscar Pereiro, in potentially his last race. Landis has had osteonecrosis of the hip joint for years, and he badly needed a hip replacement, since the ball of the joint was grinding against the side of the socket. By the way, he managed the pain by riding so much that the ball carved out its own groove on the edge of the socket...

Anyway, he wasn't sure he would ever be able to ride competitively again after his hip replacement, because they haven't yet made something that can stand up to the stress. So it was his last ever chance to win the Tour, and he was 20 minutes down because he was dehydrated and cracked in the previous stage (something pretty silly, but happens occasionally). He needed to pull something spectacular out of the bag the next day. Maybe he decided he needed a little chemical help to push him along, I don't know. But if I were under that kind of pressure, I'd be self medicating with alcohol. He just did it with testosterone.

Again, yes, cheating is wrong, and he shouldn't be doing it. But did he derive an advantage from it? Maybe a little one - he felt reassured that he had the ability to ride an incredible ride. Not much. Do people who condemn him understand why he did it? Not usually.



I don't think it's even a problem. It's only a problem because people think that the sport should be clean, while I can't think of anything in human interaction that is ever "clean" or "fair". People are cnuts, and they wouldn't be such hypocrites if they admitted it. But that's by the by, and comes from my miserable outlook on life.


It doesn't really change my enjoyment of the sport, so I can't say I condemn it. But I really couldn't care less.
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Like I said, we have different views on doping and that`s fine. I don`t really know a lot about the effects either so I`ll have to take your word for it. We can leave it at that if you want.

What I think is sad though is that you have all these great athletes who go through unthinkable amounts of pain and suffering, and you sort of look at them as heroes. I loved thinking about Lance and his cancer, about Landis and his hip and his background and about Vino and what he has done for Kasak cycling and so on. It just makes me sad that the riders I enjoyed the most were the ones getting caught! I`m not saying Lance did it though, I`m just not sure anymore. I`ll still watch the Tour anyway. Always will. Like you say, the excitement and brutality of it all will remain the same.
 
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