Its not just about who the opposition is, its more so about his actual ability on the pitch - ranging from technical ability, close control, shooting range, pace, ability to score goals from different situations, ability to beat a defender etc. When you look at it in those terms there isn't much between them. The debate about scoring against Bayern, Dortmund etc is basically just fan talk. I can't imagine two professional managers evaluating his skills relying on things like "OMG did you see his goal against Bayern ?!". They are more likely to evaluate his attitude, professionalism, and all the technical abilities the player has demonstrated.
Rashford is as good as Mbappé...
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Its not just about who the opposition is, its more so about his actual ability on the pitch - ranging from technical ability, close control, shooting range, pace, ability to score goals from different situations, ability to beat a defender etc. When you look at it in those terms there isn't much between them. The debate about scoring against Bayern, Dortmund etc is basically just fan talk. I can't imagine two professional managers evaluating his skills relying on things like "OMG did you see his goal against Bayern ?!". They are more likely to evaluate his attitude, professionalism, and all the technical abilities the player has demonstrated.
Not really. Firstly Rashford isn't on par with Mbappe technically - his finishing in 1v1s is abysmal and his close control isn't at that level either. And most importantly - ball retention through correct decision making is something he has to work on and something he has improved a lot already but last season there were many times he'd get the ball and predictably just try to run past the opposition and end up giving the ball away or running into a dead end - knowing when to press that trigger and when to be patient and wait for the right moment is paramount and what all greats share in common. With Mbappe, some of the best players in the world who are playing alongside him can easily trust him with the ball knowing he won't turn it over unnecessarily and the attack won't go to waste. For us, currently that player would be Pogba, and knowing he isn't flawless either but he has that element of maturity to his game and usually makes the best decision for the team when he gets the ball, which could playing a delicious lob or just passing it sideways. So far given Rashford's age and talent there's no need to demand that maturity from him at the risk of him curbing his explosiveness but that is something that he will eventually have to ingrain into his game if he aims to be a leading star in the coming years.
Also managers not factoring the opposition as well as the level of competition is actually rubbish. No one would be creaming over Mbappe if he was just someone who cracked a few goals in Ligue 1. He carried that into CL and continued that level against an elevated level of opposition which shows bigger promise when it comes to playing for top clubs. And it's not rocket science why it shouldn't be a big factor anyway when assessing any player.
You are once again inflating Mbappe's skills and casually brushing off Rashford's. Maybe we should add a vowel into the latter's surname to balance things out a bit. When you look at pace, technical ability, dribbling etc, there isn't really much between them. They're both fast, can beat a defender, score goals, have professional attitudes, set up their teammates with assists, etc. Not much between them in any of these categories, at which point you're not really left with much of an argument.
This is the thing though, I don't see how his game will dip really. Even if he isn't scoring his movement/pace/skill is still so good that he will be a threat in every game.
The only chance he dips is if he becomes unmotivated/finds it too easy playing for PSG and doesn't grow. Right now though he's moved to a new team for HUGE money, playing a different position (right of a front 3) and is still being very productive.
He's absolutely class let's be honest. All these comparison threads are silly though, Rashford has the world at his feet and could become whatever he desires, but I think Mbappe just "has it", where as Rashford is a little step behind in decision making/quick thinking.
To each his own, I don't know how much you have watched him play but you are free to have your opinion based on what you've seen as am I.
As for not being left with an argument it isn't me coming up with stuff like a player's nationality or his name's spelling.
Martial's been great this season and his numbers especially that of having a goal or an assist every 34 minutes is insane. However we have to put a bit of context when comparing those numbers to those of Rashford's or Mbappe's for that matter as those two are starters and have to spend a lot more time trying to break down an opposition and inevitably will have lesser percentages. Martial coming on fresh against a tired opposition definitely works for him and is actually an insane weapon to have for us for the last 15 minutes of the game. Imagine having to constantly catch up with Rashford's pace and dribbling the whole game and then seeing Martial coming on.Martial's been more clinical this season.
Gotta disagree with you there mate. Mbappe's close control and ability to actually beat a man is far superior than Rashford's at the moment. Rashford relies far too much on pace to be able to beat a man and often leaves the ball behind when he tries to dribble past defenders. I agree with the rest of your post but in terms of technical ability Mbappe is better than Rashford at the moment.
I know all that. Still, the point that Martial's finishing has been better than Rashford's this season stands. Doesn't really matter anyway, I don't get this constant bickering about how one player needs to be better than the other and belittling the other. Just play them both and enjoy them.Martial's been great this season and his numbers especially that of having a goal or an assist every 34 minutes is insane. However we have to put a bit of context when comparing those numbers to those of Rashford's or Mbappe's for that matter as those two are starters and have to spend a lot more time trying to break down an opposition and inevitably will have lesser percentages. Martial coming on fresh against a tired opposition definitely works for him and is actually an insane weapon to have for us for the last 15 minutes of the game. Imagine having to constantly catch up with Rashford's pace and dribbling the whole game and then seeing Martial coming on.
Having great competition is healthy, I hope these players read such comparisons in the media and use it as motivation to outperform the other, which at the end of the will only benefit our performances. It's something that has been a huge part of the whole Messi-Ronaldo era - it's safe to say both wouldn't have pushed themselves as hard as they did if they have level competition and a constant media hype to see who comes first. It's great and Jose is managing that really well right now.
As for their finishing, I wouldn't say Martial is a lot better than Rashford in that regard considering their complete time at the club. In fact I would say Martial's best position is on the left and not up front as his other attributes are bigger strengths for him. Rashford has a cracking shot from distance and more importantly, he goes for such attempts as soon as he sees a chance for it - he definitely has more predatory instincts than Martial. In terms of finishing from close range there's not much between them. If I had to decide who to play up front if needed then I'd give Rashford the nod.
Fair enough. A lot of these things are subjective which makes the entire argument about one definitively being better than the other subjective as well.
True that. Ultimately this debate will be decided on its own by their respective achievements over the coming years. Hope Rashford runs out the winner
True that. Ultimately this debate will be settled on its own by their respective achievements over the coming years. Hope Rashford comes out on top in that.
I'm trying to ignore the stupidity of this debate but there is so much wrong with this it has to be called up on.
a) Mbappe's decision making is about half as good as you are pretending it is. I've seen him have games where he has wasted good positions time and again, like any talented young player does. He is in good form but the inconsistency is there.
b) decision making isn't how you can tell that a young player is better than another young player. If it was Cristiano Ronaldo would have ended up playing for Scunthorpe. Yet, I'm going to hazard a fairly safe guess that neither Mbappe or Rashford are actually as good as Ronaldo.
c) You then go on to name Pogba as a player with good decision making which just confounds the lunacy of this whole point, as currently his decision making is absolutely atrocious for a fairly experienced player, and is THE thing that stops him from being anywhere near as good as he should be.
d) The last point makes no sense. If you're comparing two players, you cannot say "well player a did well against Bayern Munich which proves he's better than player b because player b hasn't played against them"...this would be like saying one car is faster than another based on it winning a race the other one wasn't in. Rashford has met and passed every test he's faced so far, playing for Manchester United, which is no easy feat. He's scored the winning goal away at the Etihad...he's put in MOTM and match winning performances against teams like Chelsea and Arsenal. He's been vital in his team winning major trophies. He's been MOTM in an FA Cup final before getting injured. He can't really have done much more than he has. Mbappe is in a similar scenario, so it is not an unfair comparison even if it is a completely pointless one.
The thing is, both will hit spells of poor form...the difference is, when Rashford does, although it wont stop people on here slagging him off, it will by en large be treated as it should be...inconsistency from a player still learning. When Mbappe hits a poor run of form, there'll be all these people claiming he's the greatest thing ever who will suddenly look very silly, and because of that he'll start getting ridiculous levels of criticism, due to expectations being placed on him that are frankly completely moronic. Similar to what Rooney has had to put up with most of his career and which you'd suspect has affected him at times.
There is also a tendancy on here as someone already pointed out, to just go bonkers over any talented player who doesn't play for United. Mata and Mhikitaryan were both the greatest things ever before we signed them. Now you have people who want to sign Mezut Ozil to play instead of one of them. When you're not watching every second of every performance from a player like you do with United players, you get a very different perspective of them, because it's the positive moments that stick out.
I haven't seen anyone say Rashford is the greatest thing ever...I actually find Martial the more exciting player at this moment, but this belittling of him and weird attempt to place Mbappe on some kind of unique pedestal is bizarre. You're talking about players who are 3-5 years away from being even near the finished article, and were the gap between how good or not so good that finished article could be is so massive that even fair comparisons at this point mean next to nothing.
People also keep saying about how "if Rashford was this" or "if Mbappe was that" but the reality is that most of the hype around Mbappe that I've seen, comes from people banging on about him on this bloody forum. If I didn't come on here he'd just be that kid who looked decent for Monaco last year. I wouldn't care less who he was supposedly better than or not better than. He isn't a benchmark for anyone. He's 18
Because the context makes it much more different. I mean lots of average players score goals against Man City in the PL (just to be clear I'm not saying Rashford is, obviously). A CL knockout stage goal holds much more importance and therefore the scorer won't be regarded in the same way as one who did it in the league. I honestly don't understand how you don't see the difference. Besides, he's also done it against Dortmund and Juventus, in the CL, so understandly the hype is high.
Stop right there @kouroux, this is a fecking Manchester derby away at the Etihad we're taking about, not some run of the mill Palace consolation goal at Man City.
I'm sorry the Manchester derby doesn't mean as much in the European continent as it does for the followers of the PL. I'm just trying to explain one of the reasons why M'Bappé is considered better. A CL knockout, QF and SF has a much higher resonance.
Disagree. Scoring the fourth goal against some poor side means nothing, yes. That I agree on.
But scoring the only goal against Chelsea or City or Liverpool, means as much as scoring against good opposition in the CL.
I don't get this logic. So according to you if Mbappe scores 30 goals this season, but fails to score in the CL knockout games, he's regressed or had a poorer season compared to last?
Not according to me bro, like I said "I'm just trying to explain one of the reasons why M'Bappé is considered better".
Tell that to all the people who rate M'Bappé higher then, just telling you the reasoning behind the assessment on the players.
FWIW, I don't use goals scored to determine IMHO that Kylian is currently better. He just seems to be a more mature footballer with his decision making is all.
The people who voted yes are surely just taking the piss.
I haven't read the majority of this thread, so I can't really comment on any consensus of what people have said... but I agree with most of the points made here, and feel it's a great post.
Fair enough. But that's an invalid reason according to me. Cheers
The only thing that is sure, is that it's a little too soon to compare them seriously. Kylian hasn't even had a complete season yet.Fair enough. But that's an invalid reason according to me. Cheers
Who cares. His hard work and attitude and performances Will shine out if he keeps going that this way. Talent is nothing until its combined with hard work in right direction.
Sorry but we must have been watching different players because he has that thought process that most top midfielders have shared, that is knowing 4-5 moves in advance and being absolutely aware of the entire team to make the best possible decision. He's obviously far off the standards the likes of Scholes or Modric have set in that regard but he's absolutely on that right path. What has actually stopped him from having a strong impact on the game is us lacking any sort of tactical shape or consistency that will allow him to get the best output from the team. It is what he enjoyed at Juve and lacks at France, and the difference is there to see. For a CM it's utterly important that the rest of the team follows his lead, like a quarterback in NFL. The sooner the entire team can adapt to his style the better it is for us, the man has tremendous vision and the ability to execute that with perfection.
I mean, really, just look his body language and speed of release as soon as he gets the ball, he's got the clarity of how to set an attack in motion and precisely why he's so highly rated. People rave about the likes of Herrera, Mata and Mkhi, and these blokes are so slow in terms on what to do next with the ball it's painful to see. Unless there's an obvious pass they just take a lifetime to think and end up passing it back to Valencia. There's barely any creativity or imagination in their play and they're miles behind Pogba in that regard. Some of the passes and lobs he played last season through the middle to set up our forward were absolutely another level and that is the standard of a top player. We have been pushed down to mediocrity of Moyes dinosaur level footie or van gaal's wait for another century to create a chance style that we have forgotten what to rate higher. It's players who can come up with a moment of magic or imagination who matter the most for any top team. Pogba has that and Martial and Rashford are capable of reaching that level, whereas the others I named will never get above their average standard where are they are only good enough to drive linear predictable attacks and barely ever try anything risky or catch the opposition off guard. It's shocking for players like Mata who is the epitome of safety first football, and is supposed to be a 'creative' player. I was excited when we got us looking at his numbers and thinking finally we have a player who can be our David Silva and cut teams open through the middle but he's not even close to that. [/offtopic]
His mental attributes are as good as Mbappe's, but nothing even close to Mbappe.
This is absolute bullshit - seriously how can you literally come up with something like that. This is the place United players are rated the highest. If you think people underrated United players in comparison to outsiders (again, I can't digest that thought being in a group of United fans) then god forbid if you ever go outside and see how our players are rated.
This thread would be considered a pisstake anywhere else on the internet, and I'm not saying it is a pisstake but it exists because we rate Rashford higher than anyone else would. Throughout the transfer season people were against buying any foreign quantity including Neymar when we already have a top prospect coming up. Heck, we opposed the transfer of Van Persie because we wanted Welbeck to lead the line. You will not get higher ratings for United players anywhere else on the internet, which is obvious given its the United forum but it's hilarious to think non United players will be rated more on here.
About time some of you get your head out of these crap conspiracy theories of people rating players based on nationalities and amazingly their name's spellings. Everyone here has watched as much as everyone else here and no one is a casual fan per say who would talk like that - that's the level you find in facebook, twitter etc discussions, not on a proper forum where people's content is judged before they are allowed to participate in main forums.
People rate players who take their teams deep into CL, win leagues and perform highly in that in comparison players of a team finishing 6th and barely looking like title contenders until this season - shock, horror. Our squad has been bang average right since Fergie's last days and there's no bias of any kind in that. Your post would make sense if someone the likes of Mata and Mkhi were driving us to the top titles. Of course we were excited during their transfers because naturally we hope the transfer to work out perfectly but it's not always the case. Mata was two-time Chelsea player of the season and at one point one of the best players in the league, he hasn't shown that level even once at United, there's no mystery in why his ratings went down after his transfer. The likes of Pogba, Bailly and now Lukaku haven't had that dip - because they have performed to the expectations or at least shown enough promise. Stop coming up with seriously insane theories like United players not being rated in a United forum, it makes no sense. In fact if a player isn't being his own club's fans that only means he simply hasn't delivered, fans are the last group in the world who would go against their own players.
I am sorry but Noodlehair is correct. Any player outside of Utd gets rated better than our own players. It is psychology. Like Noodlehair says, we scrutinize our own players more than opposing players. Every time Mata loses the ball or misplaces a pass for us, people see that as a negative. But while he was playing for Chelsea, he was brilliant, despite the fact that he was playing the exact same way.
There always seems to be another player as well. Mkitarian is not doing it according to the cafe. Ok, we should sign Dybala. Then Dybala wont meet the high expectations so we suggest another player and so on. And round and round the carousel goes.
The pattern is the same: Players not playing for us get hyped up; players playing for us get under-valued. Look at the hype there was for Pogba when he was playing for Juventus.
Let me assure you that supporters of other clubs are not debating whether Rashford is as good as Mbappe
Is that a riddle?
In what universe?
You've looked at the wrong pattern.
Look at the players it applies to: Mata and Mkhi. Neither have kept up the level based on which they were signed. Mata has wasted his entire prime here and not once he was the leader of our attack like he was at Chelsea, at the time he was rated on par with Silva, now no one will rate him that high, not just Utd fans.
It works the other way round: people weren't sure of getting Herrera but he performed and got the plaudits. Same is happening with Matic - most wanted Fabinho ahead of him but he's getting rated, guess why, because he's performing.
People rate players who perform and not the ones who don't, it's as simple as that. And all transfers get enough time to settle before getting any criticism. But if you suddenly drop your level - like what happened with Veron, one of the best players in the world and was woeful at Utd - you won't still be getting the same rating. That's rather obvious.
Good post.
Yep. Its the standard grass is greener on the other side logic that's become inclusive during the transfer muppet era. We always inflate the value of things we can't have often at the expense of what we do have.
This thread has gotten very silly.
No one here would actually agree at the thought of Mbappe replacing Rashford if that opportunity arose so again you are completely off the mark with that theory.
On the contrary, the fact that everyone is getting a bit moist about Mbappe-mania suggests they probably would.
Especially since some have dug a deep hole to entrench themselves into arguing against a United player.
I disagree. They were over-hyped on here because they played for opposing clubs. What people do is they look at their stats, then they look at these ridiculous videos on youtube that just pick out the best moments of each player in a game. That leads people to assume that the said player is so good and will solve all our problems. Then when he signs for us and you see a full game, of which you are scrutinizing every lost ball, every missed pass or tackle, he then fails to meet these high expectations. You are saying Mata and Micky T have failed to keep up to the level that they were or should have been at. The reality is you have over hyped their abilities for reasons I have said.
I counted how many times Kevin De Bruyne lost the ball or misplaced a pass for City against Shakdar in the Champions League. In the first thirty minutes of the first half he did that at least four times and also missed a one on one with the goal keeper. If that was Mata or Mickey T, we would rip into them. But because De Bruyne is on a different team, all people see is that he scored a goal in that match. My point is to realize how good a player is, you have to watch a full match about ten times.
Watch Hazard, Silva etc. against a good team. They lose the ball or misplace passes but we do not scrutinize them because they do not play for us. We only remember the good things they do.
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