Rashford is as good as Mbappé...

[Santoryo]

I have no idea whether Mbappe is anywhere near Messi's level of talent but it's worth noting that Messi himself did not put up ridiculous numbers early on in his career. He scored a total of 41 goals in his first three full seasons (05/06, 06/07, 07/08). He started posting freakish stats only after he turned 21.

He didn't put those numbers but his abilities were freakish. What he could do with the ball was already insane hence didn't need to put insane numbers for people to figure they were dealing with a generational talent.

Mbappe on the other hand needs to show freakish numbers in order to compensate for the level of ball playing skills a young Messi showed in order to balance things.

 

[The Red Thinker]

[QUOTE="Laurentiu amt, post: 21569113, member: 109657"]Martial and Mbappe are kind of on the same level. Martial just needs a few games and a decent left back behind him. Also Jose needs to stop being a pussy and let the guy play freely.

Rashford is alright, but he's not on the same level, finishing is too poor, loses the ball a lot, but hey, he's just 19.

But yeah, Mbappe is a level up on our youngsters.

People making him look like he's Danny Welbeck FFS.

 

[Mcking]

People making him look like he's Danny Welbeck FFS.

Stacks is not entirely wrong. Rashford's finishing is quite poor compared to the players he's being compared to. He is not exactly a good passer and is well behind technically.

 

[fergieisold]

Rashford looked well ahead of most players on the pitch last night, particularly in the first half.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Potential wise perhaps they are very close (Mbappe, Rashford, Martial), but I still prefer Mbappe (who imo has been showning better technique, decision making, composure etc)

But in terms of consistency, finishing, individual stats, performances on bigger stage, there's not even a debate - Mbappe is at least 2 tier above them, at least for past year.

 

[dichinero]

As much I love Rashford, I can't but fear that he'll be done by the hype which is is typical for most English talents. Comparing him to Mbappe is so unnecessary, Keown mentioning him alongside the likes of Ronaldo, Messi and Bale is idiotic IMO, albeit it was relating to position.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

As much I love Rashford, I can't but fear that he'll be done by the hype which is is typical for most English talents. Comparing him to Mbappe is so unnecessary, Keown mentioning him alongside the likes of Ronaldo, Messi and Bale is idiotic IMO, albeit it was relating to position.

Not worried about that. He seems an extremely level headed young man. The only question with Rashford is whether he has the talent/shows the improvement to be absolutely top drawer. Since his technical game isn't completely elite level, he'll probably have to use intelligence and efficiency just as much as he uses his technical and physical gifts to get there. So far he's shaping it for sure.

I think he's going to be an excellent forward for years to come. Whether he'll be a proper 30 goal forward or one that scores 15-20 goals and contributes to the team a lot in other ways, that remains to be seen. And it's the difference between the best and players that are a step below.

 

[Rozay]

Said it before, whoever anyone thinks is better, just use your eyes and make a decision. Not a text book, stats site or any other algorithm.

I don't think because one player plays in this team, or in that league we should discount what the eyes can see.

Ronaldo was the best striker in the world as a teenager at PSV. By caf algorithm, it would have been argued that I dunno, Ryan Giggs for example is better, as Ronaldo plays in Holland, and has Romario on his national team instead of Dean Saunders etc.

Football can't simply be compared like that, perhaps unless we are talking about an obviously very poor level of football. Ligue Un is a top 5 league.

I personally think Mbappé is better than Rashford, but if someone doesn't, I think it's better to use qualities or something that are apparently lacking, as opposed to saying Mbappé wouldn't be able to do this here, or Rashford would do that there as some sort of justification. Doesn't work for me.

 

[Raoul]

Said it before, whoever anyone thinks is better, just use your eyes and make a decision. Not a text book, stats site or any other algorithm.

I don't think because one player plays in this team, or in that league we should discount what the eyes can see.

Ronaldo was the best striker in the world as a teenager at PSV. By caf algorithm, it would have been argued that I dunno, Ryan Giggs for example is better, as Ronaldo plays in Holland, and has Romario on his national team instead of Dean Saunders etc.

Football can't simply be compared like that, perhaps unless we are talking about an obviously very poor level of football. Ligue Un is a top 5 league.

I personally think Mbappé is better than Rashford, but if someone doesn't, I think it's better to use qualities or something that are apparently lacking, as opposed to saying Mbappé wouldn't be able to do this here, or Rashford would do that there as some sort of justification. Doesn't work for me.

Naturally the league quality is going to make a massive difference given that the French league is basically a two horse race and the Prem is easily the best league in the world in terms of the quality of competition. It is far more difficult for a young player to shine here than in most other leagues.

 

[Rozay]

Naturally the league quality is going to make a massive difference given that the French league is basically a two horse race and the Prem is easily the best league in the world in terms of the quality of competition. It has far more difficult for a young player to shine here than in most other leagues.

I appreciate that, but then you are almost saying that it's impossible for a player from France to be 'better' - not unless he comes to England first. Not sure it works like that.

A player can get 5 goals in England and another get 20 in France. People can make an argument of it being par. I don't think it is. And I'd agree with you about competitiveness, but I don't think the PL has been a beacon of quality in recent years. Competitiveness is relative anyway. La Liga hasn't been as competitive as the PL, and has been a two horse race, but those two particular horses would also wipe the floor with competition here too. Having a bunch of not very great teams all neck and neck means little. No league in football is more competitive than the Championship. You don't know if a team will either win it or be relegated every year. Quality isn't there either.

Mbappé played for a team that was probably better than all of the PL sides last year. Monaco dispatched City, and HE played a big part in that. He can only play against who he plays against, but we can at least watch him and see what he can do.

Again, if R9 was playing for PSV now, it would be argued that Rashford is better than him too.

I don't think it's that easy to score goals in France anyway. The likes of Mbappé and Dembele were breaking records for teenagers there. It's not like there is a history of teenagers scoring 20+ goals in France. Rashford himself hasn't gotten near the likes of Owen managed in England at 18.

 

[Raoul]

I appreciate that, but then you are almost saying that it's impossible for a player from France to be 'better' - not unless he comes to England first. Not sure it works like that.

A player can get 5 goals in England and another get 20 in France. People can make an argument of it being par. I don't think it is. And I'd agree with you about competitiveness, but I don't think the PL has been a beacon of quality in recent years. Competitiveness is relative anyway. La Liga hasn't been as competitive as the PL, and has been a two horse race, but those two particular horses would also wipe the floor with competition here too. Having a bunch of not very great teams all neck and neck means little. No league in football is more competitive than the Championship. You don't know if a team will either win it or be relegated every year. Quality isn't there either.

Mbappé played for a team that was probably better than all of the PL sides last year. Monaco dispatched City, and HE played a big part in that. He can only play against who he plays against, but we can at least watch him and see what he can do.

Again, if R9 was playing for PSV now, it would be argued that Rashford is better than him too.

I don't think it's that easy to score goals in France anyway. The likes of Mbappé and Dembele were breaking records for teenagers there. It's not like there is a history of teenagers scoring 20+ goals in France. Rashford himself hasn't gotten near the likes of Owen managed in England at 18.

R9 was a completely different animal to Mbappe in that he scored a goal a game at the same age. He had a knee injury in his 2nd year at PSV and still managed nearly a goal a game. If Mbappe did that then he would be in a completely different category than he is right now. When you score 35 goals in Holland as a 17/18 year old then that is sign of something truly special brewing.

 

[Rozay]

R9 was a completely different animal to Mbappe in that he scored a goal a game at the same age. He had a knee injury in his 2nd year at PSV and still managed nearly a goal a game. If Mbappe did that then he would be in a completely different category than he is right now. When you score 35 goals in Holland as a 17/18 year old then that is sign of something truly special brewing.

Yea fair enough. And France is 'tougher' than Holland, and Mbappé scored 20+ at 18. In 'half a season' as I keep seeing. Was certainly on about a goal a game since the turn of the year.

I just think there isn't a formula per se, you have to say what you see, and France isn't some joke league to the degree that is often implied anyway. England is more competitive, but the best teams have struggled to get out of their CL groups or past the second round in recent years, so I'm not sure that even matters that much.

Ultimately, the best way is to watch them and decide in my opinion.

 

[Wilt]

There I've said it.

No he isn't .....stop telling porkies

 

[Mainoldo]

Yea fair enough. And France is 'tougher' than Holland, and Mbappé scored 20+ at 18. In 'half a season' as I keep seeing. Was certainly on about a goal a game since the turn of the year.

I just think there isn't a formula per se, you have to say what you see, and France isn't some joke league to the degree that is often implied anyway. England is more competitive, but the best teams have struggled to get out of their CL groups or past the second round in recent years, so I'm not sure that even matters that much.

Ultimately, the best way is to watch them and decide in my opinion.

Saying the French league is tougher than the Dutch would be like claiming Rooney @18 played in a tougher league than Del Piero @18. You have to put it into context, the current French league was not tougher than the Dutch at the time.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yea fair enough. And France is 'tougher' than Holland, and Mbappé scored 20+ at 18. In 'half a season' as I keep seeing. Was certainly on about a goal a game since the turn of the year.

Nar it's really not @Rozay, not France 2017 compared to Holland 1995-1996.

For example, the two years Ronaldo spent at PSV were also the years in which Ajax won the Champions League (1995), and then lost the final the following year (1996).

Mbappe scored 15 in 29 Ligue one appearances last season for Monaco.
Ronaldo scored 42 in 46 Eredivisie apperarances for PSV.

This isn't an attempt to belittle Mbappe, as we are comparing him here to the best 17-18 year old most of us have ever seen; but the fact is, Mbappe has been hyped up to Ronaldo levels without fully being deserved of it yet. Let's not forget that at 19-20, Ronaldo went and smashed in 34 goals in 37 La Liga games, and 47 goals in 49 appearances in all competitions that season.

#perspective

 

[Prometheus]

Young Ronaldo had the most insane footwork I've ever seen! Not that anyone is comparing them per se at the moment, but I've seen people mention quite a lot in here that he reminds them of Ronaldo, whereas for me Ronaldo is probably the only player that I haven't seen anyone who reminds me of him.

 

[Rozay]

Nar it's really not @Rozay, not France 2017 compared to Holland 1995-1996.

For example, the two years Ronaldo spent at PSV were also the years in which Ajax won the Champions League (1995), and then lost the final the following year (1996).

Mbappe scored 15 in 29 Ligue one appearances last season for Monaco.
Ronaldo scored 42 in 46 Eredivisie apperarances for PSV.

This isn't an attempt to belittle Mbappe, as we are comparing him here to the best 17-18 year old most of us have ever seen; but the fact is, Mbappe has been hyped up to Ronaldo levels without fully being deserved of it yet. Let's not forget that at 19-20, Ronaldo went and smashed in 34 goals in 37 La Liga games, and 47 goals in 49 appearances in all competitions that season.

#perspective

I'd never dream of saying Mbappé is as good as Ronaldo, as I believe Ronaldo is the best player ever.

I just used him as an example of a player playing in a lesser league not necessarily translating into lesser player/achievement etc. Having watched both players, I believe Mbappé is better than Rashford, and every other young player. I'm not with the algorithm judgement of 'he's played for x amount of time compared to this player' or 'he has this teammate compared to that one'. These things aren't the fault of the players, and have no bearing on who is 'better'. Obviously it's within reason, but any top league in Europe is fair comparison. And the PL, while 'competitive' hasn't been that good of late. They can barely get a CL quarterfinalist out of this great league.

 

[K2K]

This thread will look silly in a few years.

They always do.

 

[Scarecrow]

Mbappe didn't exactly stand out today, against Bulgaria. Just noting.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

These things aren't the fault of the players, and have no bearing on who is 'better'. Obviously it's within reason, but any top league in Europe is fair comparison. And the PL, while 'competitive' hasn't been that good of late. They can barely get a CL quarterfinalist out of this great league.

Hmmm...

Last season Monaco had the following results, Mbappe's goals are in brackets. That's 11 of his goals scored when his team dished out an absolute hiding to someone.

7-0
6-2 (1)
6-0 (1)
5-0 (1)
7-0 (3)
5-4 (1)
5-0 (3)
5-3 (1)

 

[Sammyjunn]

Mbappe didn't exactly stand out today, against Bulgaria. Just noting.

Created two excellent chances for himself, one for Griezmann and one for Lacazette only in the 1st half. You already hold a very high standard for him I guess. 2nd half was quite average though.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Said it before, whoever anyone thinks is better, just use your eyes and make a decision. Not a text book, stats site or any other algorithm.

I don't think because one player plays in this team, or in that league we should discount what the eyes can see.

Ronaldo was the best striker in the world as a teenager at PSV. By caf algorithm, it would have been argued that I dunno, Ryan Giggs for example is better, as Ronaldo plays in Holland, and has Romario on his national team instead of Dean Saunders etc.

Football can't simply be compared like that, perhaps unless we are talking about an obviously very poor level of football. Ligue Un is a top 5 league.

I personally think Mbappé is better than Rashford, but if someone doesn't, I think it's better to use qualities or something that are apparently lacking, as opposed to saying Mbappé wouldn't be able to do this here, or Rashford would do that there as some sort of justification. Doesn't work for me.

Except that's not what people say at all. They say it's easier to look impressive and get a goal or assists every game in the French league play for one of the most free flowing sides, or PSG who are several levels above.

You can use merely your eyes all you want but it makes no logical sense to ignore context. Obviously if I see someone technically on a different level (Maradona Messi type talent) I'm not going to equate him to Greizemann even if they played in a weaker league.

But for what I've seen the talent of the likes of Mbappe and Martial are not miles apart and it makes complete sense to contextualize their performances. So I say use your eyes and your brain. If you've got both, use them.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Created two excellent chances for himself, one for Griezmann and one for Lacazette only in the 1st half. You already hold a very high standard for him I guess. 2nd half was quite average though.

That's not a very good performance or a high standard. Grizemanns wasn't a great chance and the defender slipped. Lacazettes chance came about after Mbappe played a nice pass after almost screwing up the 2 on 3 or whatever it was.

I don't think I'd be praising Rashford if he had that game.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Nar it's really not @Rozay, not France 2017 compared to Holland 1995-1996.

For example, the two years Ronaldo spent at PSV were also the years in which Ajax won the Champions League (1995), and then lost the final the following year (1996).

Mbappe scored 15 in 29 Ligue one appearances last season for Monaco.
Ronaldo scored 42 in 46 Eredivisie apperarances for PSV.

This isn't an attempt to belittle Mbappe, as we are comparing him here to the best 17-18 year old most of us have ever seen; but the fact is, Mbappe has been hyped up to Ronaldo levels without fully being deserved of it yet. Let's not forget that at 19-20, Ronaldo went and smashed in 34 goals in 37 La Liga games, and 47 goals in 49 appearances in all competitions that season.

#perspective

Damn.

And yes perspective is important. Even if you don't apply it always at least don't willfully choose to discard it.

 

[Sammyjunn]

That's not a very good performance or a high standard. Grizemanns wasn't a great chance and the defender slipped. Lacazettes chance came about after Mbappe played a nice pass after almost screwing up the 2 on 3 or whatever it was.

I don't think I'd be praising Rashford if he had that game.

We dont ever have to have this debate, sirely there must be an expected goals/expecter assist stat

 

[Scarecrow]

Created two excellent chances for himself, one for Griezmann and one for Lacazette only in the 1st half. You already hold a very high standard for him I guess. 2nd half was quite average though.

The standard I hold is the rest of the players on the pitch, hence the "didn't stand out". Everyone can interpret it how they like.

 

[kouroux]

Mbappe didn't exactly stand out today, against Bulgaria. Just noting.

I agree, the whole team was shit. A match so boring, it could have put anybody to sleep

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We dont ever have to have this debate, sirely there must be an expected goals/expecter assist stat

Probably not.

I don't see why we need inflate everything he does. Every footballer of a decent level manages to play a couple of good passes a game. He was pretty average/poor last night like the rest of the team. It's not a big deal. It's happened to Martial and Rashford too. Standards are high for highly rated talents across the board.

 

[Rasendori]

 

[Santoryo]

I'll say it again Mbappe is a better talent than Rashford but he hasn't done anything so suggest he's some kind of generational talent aka Messi like or shown anything putting him way above his peers.

This guy is mostly judged on hype and social media narratives now. You look at him and he's obviously a great talent than listen to the narrative which has someohow put him into that rare category of Messi level talent and suddenly everything he does becomes inflated(Does a single pass and people would have you believe he's drilling pin point accurate Scholes like long passes, etc).

I keep watching him and still wondering what has people thinking even for a second he's way above his peers or some kind of Messi level talent.

It's silly how nowadays players are largely measured by tabloid and social media hype rather than their actual abilities.

That video above further prove my point. You look at it and see 2 young talented players with Mbappe looking the more talented yet nothing extraordinary compared to Rashford in that same video. But if you put a video of young Messi with Rashford or Mbappe for that matter, the first thing that would come to mind is how far talented he'd be compare to either. Not getting that feeling from this video with Mbappe compared to Rashford.

 

[Raees]

I'll say it again Mbappe is a better talent than Rashford but he hasn't done anything so suggest he's some kind of generational talent aka Messi like or shown anything putting him way above his peers.

This guy is mostly judged on hype and social media narratives now. You look at him and he's obviously a great talent than listen to the narrative which has someohow put him into that rare category of Messi level talent and suddenly everything he does becomes inflated.

I keep watching him and still wondering what has people thinking even for second he's way above his peers or some kind of Messi level talent.

It's silly how nowadays players are largely measured by tabloid and social media hype rather than their actual abilities.

That video above further prove my point. You look at it and see 2 young talented players with Mbappe looking the more talented yet nothing extraordinary compared to Rashford in that same video. But if you put a video of young Messi with Rashford or Mbappe for that matter, the first thing that would come to mind is how far talented he'd be compare to either. Not getting that feeling from this video with Mbappe compared to Rashford.

Can see where you're coming from. Mbappe whilst easily better than Rashford (at this moment in time) doesn't have that alienesque ability that Messi/R9 for example had when they burst through. He has very good decision-making for his age, but it might be a Rooney situation where he is already at his peak - i.e. already physically where he will end up and apart from getting more mature, scoring more goals/assists might not have a GOAT ceiling to his game once people figure out his game and devise ways to keep him quiet.

It is not a given that he will continue to just go on this upwards development curve and rival Messi/Ronaldo.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

All the feckers on the Martial threads that talk about Rashford as though all he can do is kick a ball past someone and run quickly after it really ought to watch that video.

 

[Hugh Jass]

If Rashford was playing for any other club, we would creaming ourselves about him.

 

[Santoryo]

Can see where you're coming from. Mbappe whilst easily better than Rashford (at this moment in time) doesn't have that alienesque ability that Messi/R9 for example had when they burst through. He has very good decision-making for his age, but it might be a Rooney situation where he is already at his peak - i.e. already physically where he will end up and apart from getting more mature, scoring more goals/assists might not have a GOAT ceiling to his game once people figure out his game and devise ways to keep him quiet.

It is not a given that he will continue to just go on this upwards development curve and rival Messi/Ronaldo.

This is exactly my point. Mbappe's footballing abilities doesn't particularly stand out from his peers and what I keep hearing that set him apart is apparently his mature decision making.

With the likes of a young Messi or Fenomenon what stood out about them was pure footballing abilities. When watching those kids, things like decision making or maturity doesn't come to mind, what strikes you is how godly good and how much footballing abilities they had.

Messi at 19 could skin an entire Real Madrid defense including the keeper and put in a goal of a decade. He was already breaking ankles and just cutting through defenses with his insane runs. He wasn't yet a goal machine but his abilities were freakish.

A young Ronaldo was already setting top leagues on fire, scoring for fun and putting in ridiculous numbers. His ability on the ball were fecking scary and just mesmerising. The guy at 16 scored like 44 goals in 47 games with Cruizero in Brazil then at 17-18 he scored 54 goals in 58 games at PSV in the Dutch league then followed that at 19/20 by scoring 47 in 49 at Barcelona leading the league scoring with 34 in 37. These are freakish numbers, expecting Mbappe to have potential comparable to such a monster is absolutely ludicrous. They're in different stratosphere talent wise.

R9, Messi those are generational talent whom just by watching them play as young players there were absolutely no doubt that they were something else.

I remember when Ronaldinho claimed that there is a kid at Barca more talented than him. This statement came during Dhino's peak which I naturally found ludicrous. Then hype about a young prodigy coming from Barca that might surpass Ronaldinho kept growing. I was still not convinced, I wanted to see it to believe it, then I saw. I instantly understood the hype. Can't say the same thing about Mbappe. I'm still scratching my head as to all this overblown hype about him.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Can't say the same thing about Mbappe. I'm still scratching my head as to all this overblown hype about him.

He's the best young player in world football. Can dribble, pass, shoot, score and assist. He's already a complete player and he's only 18.

He'll be the best of his generation barring injuries.

 

[Santoryo]

He's the best young player in world football. Can dribble, pass, shoot, score and assist. He's already a complete player and he's only 18.

He'll be the best of his generation barring injuries.

Like I said his abilities don't stand out from his peers nor set him apart from them. He's currently the most hyped youngster of the lot but there are many youngsters as talented in the likes of Dembele, Martial, I'm hearing Ascensio(though haven't watched much of him, so can't tell) etc. Some might say he's arguably the best of the lot but he's got nothing setting him apart like true generational talent in the likes of Messi did.

Your Dembele and Martial can do all you just mention. They can score, pass, dribble, score, assist and plenty more.

Mbappe is simply overhyped. Shown nothing setting him apart, nothing at all. He's one of the very top talents of his generation that's all I see.

 

[Raoul]

I'll say it again Mbappe is a better talent than Rashford but he hasn't done anything so suggest he's some kind of generational talent aka Messi like or shown anything putting him way above his peers.

This guy is mostly judged on hype and social media narratives now. You look at him and he's obviously a great talent than listen to the narrative which has someohow put him into that rare category of Messi level talent and suddenly everything he does becomes inflated(Does a single pass and people would have you believe he's drilling pin point accurate Scholes like long passes, etc).

I keep watching him and still wondering what has people thinking even for a second he's way above his peers or some kind of Messi level talent.

It's silly how nowadays players are largely measured by tabloid and social media hype rather than their actual abilities.

That video above further prove my point. You look at it and see 2 young talented players with Mbappe looking the more talented yet nothing extraordinary compared to Rashford in that same video. But if you put a video of young Messi with Rashford or Mbappe for that matter, the first thing that would come to mind is how far talented he'd be compare to either. Not getting that feeling from this video with Mbappe compared to Rashford.

Agree with this. A vast majority of the public's perception of Mbappe is based on herd behavior narratives that are picked up on social media, youtube, and forums. One person says he's the next Messi, another person views his YouTube clips and is impressed, another person marvels at his CL scoring, then each of these and many others like them engage in the predictable groupthink deification of the player. He is a fantastic talent no doubt, but he has all his work yet ahead of him and the constant hype can only be a bad thing in terms of setting expectations that are far too high to ever meet.

 

[Raoul]

If Rashford was playing for any other club, we would creaming ourselves about him.

If he wasn't English and played for a foreign club then his hype would be exponentially higher than it is here.

 

[AP88]

Martial has incredible talent, but he plays within himself; if he had the same desire to destroy that a young R9 had, that intensity, he'd be regarded as the best young player in the world now.

Rashford has a more positive, direct attitude, but lacks a little bit of natural class; he can still have a great career, but he's a physical specimen with good ability rather than a phenomenon technically who's physically exceptional too, ala Messi/Ronaldo.

Mbappe, on the other hand, is like a hybrid of the two; seems to have a bit more elegance than Rashford, and more vigour than Martial.

All great talents, and only time will tell who has the most productive career.

 

[Sayros]

Mbappe is simply overhyped. Shown nothing setting him apart, nothing at all. He's one of the very top talents of his generation that's all I see.

You're completely off, I wonder how you even judge players to begin with at that point. Nevermind the fact that he has more goals in the CL at 18 than Messi, Cristiano, Rooney (since Ligue 1 performances get dismissed easily around here). That fact alone sets him apart not just from his generation, but any generation, regardless of your views on it. Whether he's capable of keeping it up and improving upon it in the future is still up for debate, although I have no worries on that front. But he's shown a tremendous amount that sets him apart at his early age, to suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

If he wasn't English and played for a foreign club then his hype would be exponentially higher than it is here.

And I'd argue that if Mbappe was English and in Manchester United and Rashford in Ligue 1, this thread wouldn't even exist.