It doesn’t guarantee that they are good enough to play for PL/CL winning squad. Both lacks a real competition.
Rashford and Martial are a problem
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
It doesn’t guarantee that they are good enough to play for PL/CL winning squad. Both lacks a real competition.
NO, they are not.
Rashford, can score some very good goals but makes the wrong decision when to pass to players in better positions.
Martial, strolls around the pitch, and thinks if he scores one goal his job is finished.
We do need a CF who will stay up there and get the tap ins, as well as headed goals from set pieces or corners. A 30 goal a season player.
I’ve said for ages we should get rid of martial, It’s not as if he’s irreplaceable.
I agree in part, but do you believe they are impeding our progress? If we were a title challenging outfit, then accommodating both might be problematic. In our current state, however, I wouldn’t consider them to be the primary concern.
If there's an area of the pitch where we don't have a problem it's in attack. Whenever we actually manage to et the ball to our attacking players with any kind of tempo, we almost invariably win the game.
Our forwards always seem to be the first in line for criticism but even the best attacking players in the world are frustrating and inconsistent. Rashford is certainly that but take him out of the game yesterday for example and we lose half our threat. Compare the problems he caused Everton to Mata on the opposite side who was a non entity. If we didn't have Rashford and Martial every single game would be a massive struggle.
I can't remember us having many (if any?) forward plaers who weren't inconsistent. RVP even in his good season went on a barron run and had frequent games where he'd just give the ball away cheaply over and over. Zlatan was fecking awful half the time. Rooney who is our highest ever goalscorer would have haave the touch of a drunk 80 year old in what seemed like most games. Only Ronaldo I can think of as an exception and even he was terrible half the time, just that he'd usually boot the ball into the goal a couple of times regardless.
The good thing is we have 2 very high level attacking players for me in Fernandes and Rashford, an extremely talented youngster in Greenwood, and Martial who for me isn't quite at the same level but is still pretty good. That's four very good forwards who you can actuallly fit in the team together, which means the inconsistenncy is a bit less important because even if three of them are having an off day the fourth can still win you the game. Really very few teams have that.
You look at Liverpool and Salah is off it half the time. Mane has days where he can't do a thing right. Firminho has frankly been rubbish for months. It's still good enough for them because having three good forwards means you don't rely on every one of them constantly being in top form. We have the bonus of Fernandes...our problems are more that we have frequent games where our defence or midfield seem to like making themselves the centre of attention while our forwards barely get a decent pass played to them all game.
Our forwards always seem to be the first in line for criticism but even the best attacking players in the world are frustrating and inconsistent. Rashford is certainly that but take him out of the game yesterday for example and we lose half our threat. Compare the problems he caused Everton to Mata on the opposite side who was a non entity. If we didn't have Rashford and Martial every single game would be a massive struggle.
I can't remember us having many (if any?) forward plaers who weren't inconsistent. RVP even in his good season went on a barron run and had frequent games where he'd just give the ball away cheaply over and over. Zlatan was fecking awful half the time. Rooney who is our highest ever goalscorer would have haave the touch of a drunk 80 year old in what seemed like most games. Only Ronaldo I can think of as an exception and even he was terrible half the time, just that he'd usually boot the ball into the goal a couple of times regardless.
The good thing is we have 2 very high level attacking players for me in Fernandes and Rashford, an extremely talented youngster in Greenwood, and Martial who for me isn't quite at the same level but is still pretty good. That's four very good forwards who you can actuallly fit in the team together, which means the inconsistenncy is a bit less important because even if three of them are having an off day the fourth can still win you the game. Really very few teams have that.
You look at Liverpool and Salah is off it half the time. Mane has days where he can't do a thing right. Firminho has frankly been rubbish for months. It's still good enough for them because having three good forwards means you don't rely on every one of them constantly being in top form. We have the bonus of Fernandes...our problems are more that we have frequent games where our defence or midfield seem to like making themselves the centre of attention while our forwards barely get a decent pass played to them all game.
If we were a title challenging outfit honestly I think our attack is the only part of our team you could look at and say "actually not much would need to change there"...maybe an extra player but Martial and Rashford would both still be there and important.
Meanwhile our defence would have to look completely different and half our midfield would neeed turfing out of the club and replacing rather than being pandered to.
Typical caf.
When Martial is out of form, Rashford is the better player.
When Rashford is out of form, Martial is the better player.
When Martial didn't score, he is useless. There are many match winners from Martial last season, how can you guys forget?
When Martial is out of form, Rashford is the better player.
When Rashford is out of form, Martial is the better player.
When Martial didn't score, he is useless. There are many match winners from Martial last season, how can you guys forget?
Firmino would do jack shit in our team. It's easy to imagine a scenario with Martial there, do it with Firmino too
How many games are we in to this season where we basically had no pre-season? Oh and one of them has missed a load of games for being stupid.
Ridiculous thread. If after Christmas our midfield is still bad and we these two keep mucking up the few chances they get them maybe we can look back at this thread but come on.
Ridiculous thread. If after Christmas our midfield is still bad and we these two keep mucking up the few chances they get them maybe we can look back at this thread but come on.
Until we have players putting ball in regularly and midfielders trying to play the ball in for them regularly I find it hard to judge them.
We simply need to put them in the position to score more. Our whole team needs to be more aggressive in trying to score goals.
Shaw and AWB should be putting balls in ALOT. Give them something to attack.
We simply need to put them in the position to score more. Our whole team needs to be more aggressive in trying to score goals.
Shaw and AWB should be putting balls in ALOT. Give them something to attack.
I do agree, but it could be argued that the current iterations of Martial and Rashford would never start together in a title challenging team. They’re both brilliant at their best, but they’re also very inconsistent. Can top teams afford to rely so heavily on such temperamental players?
I’d say that In attack, we lack the ideal blend of flare and experience.
For me, I can't really predict Rashford trajectory or how he will eventually perform at his peak. He has some really strong elements to his game, but also has a lot of really weak elements that might stop him from being what we hope for him to be. He's a weird one, he has a lot of skills, but his touches aren't there yet. He can deliver a pass, but I won't call him creative. He can shoot, but I won't say he's a good finisher. He can absolutely destroy a player one on one, but I won't call him a good dribbler. There are a lot of elements there, but he can't yet seem to put it all together enough to make him the consistent threat throughout a game that I think he can be.
Martial is very different, but is wrongly put together with Rashford. Martial has very identifiable skills that makes it easy to see some of his talent. However I believe these skills ( dribbling cutting inside and side finish) are so flashy that people tend to not notice how limited he actually is in his attacking play. He can't attack the space when dribbling from the right hand side, which is why he can't play on the right wing. He hardly takes any other variation of shot other than the right foot side finish, he's not great with his left foot and even struggles with touches when tasked to use it which usually force him to shift his entire body to got to his right foot, he's not a good passer of the ball and doesn't make or doesn't have the capacity to make good off ball runs. Most importantly, he doesn't provide enough of a threat inside the box as he doesn't make the right attacking movements. His dribbling and agility makes it easy to think he has the capacity to eventually do all of these things, but what if he doesn't?
Martial is very different, but is wrongly put together with Rashford. Martial has very identifiable skills that makes it easy to see some of his talent. However I believe these skills ( dribbling cutting inside and side finish) are so flashy that people tend to not notice how limited he actually is in his attacking play. He can't attack the space when dribbling from the right hand side, which is why he can't play on the right wing. He hardly takes any other variation of shot other than the right foot side finish, he's not great with his left foot and even struggles with touches when tasked to use it which usually force him to shift his entire body to got to his right foot, he's not a good passer of the ball and doesn't make or doesn't have the capacity to make good off ball runs. Most importantly, he doesn't provide enough of a threat inside the box as he doesn't make the right attacking movements. His dribbling and agility makes it easy to think he has the capacity to eventually do all of these things, but what if he doesn't?
Well they both got over 20 goals last season despite both missing a fair chunk of it through injury (particularly in Rashford's case), and neither being our consistent penalty taker. They also created and scored a lot of goals through linking up together or making runs off each other. Rashford is comfortable on the left or through the middle. Martial the same.
I actually think those two and Greenwood (development permitting) could win you a title as a first choice front three if you had the right team and options behind them.
Top teams DO rely heavily on temperamental attacking players, because that is what nearly all top level attacking players are. The ones that are consistent, generally are consistently not good enough. The ones that are difference makers generally are that because they can win you a game in a moment. They rarely do it over the whole 90 minutes and they rarely do it every game unless they are Lionel Messi. If Rashford was at the top of his game every week he could practically when a league on his own but that's obviously unrealistic regardless of what system you put him in and with who. He'll always blow hot and cold I think. What he is getting better at is still finding the net on an off day...and that is the part Martial needs to get better at because you see that much less from him. Greenwood has so much natural finishing ability and looks so comfortable on the ball that you get the impression he already has the ability to bang goals in when he's having a bad game.
I think where we lack is in not having great alternatives to these three. Cavani will hopefully help in the short term at least but otherwise we're just bringing James in who offers a lesser version of the same qualities really. Or Mata who isn't a right winger and has never looked like one despite spending what seems like most of his career playing there for us.
It's also quite annoying this season how we keep tampering with the things we know actually work. Greenwood is in and out of the team and for some reason Rashford keeps ending up playing on the right...and we keep sticking other people in the same spaces as Fernandes. I wouldn't be tampering with the front four unless absolutely necessary personally as I think it's the only part of the team that's fully up to scratch...or even if it isn't at least has the potential to be.
No, but it does tell us that they are the least of our problems.
i see rashford as someone who will be in the team for a long time. He is doing well and improving. His decision making will improve by time no doubt. Yesterday was a clear example where he hugged the ball on counter attack at the time he was supposed to pass. But it’s fine. He’s doing well all in all and will only improve. He has a goal goal contribution this year so far.
martial on the other hand is not what we need as a number 9. He is far too lazy and inconsistent (to be fair to him, consistency is a team issue as well). He doesn’t worry defenders much. He drops back a lot. We want a cavani 5 years ago
we want a real striker that can keep defenders on their toes, someone who bags 30+ goals a season you’re right. Someone like KaneWell if what you are saying about Sterling is true, then clearly we aren't the only club with this problem.
20 goals is of course league goals.. Scoring 20 in the league has been a treshold for years. And I dont think he ever will. He doesnt score the ugly goals. I don't rate him that higly as a centre forward, he is a left winger in my eyes. He can score some beauties though and he is a fine player, but I think there are many better CF's around and we have a better LW in Rashford.
My few cents on the matter anyways.
Firmino does feck all in the champions team so you picked the worst player to compare to
They’re not “young“ anymore.
Martial is closing in on 250 appearances for the club. As is Rashford.
They’ve scored almost 150 goals for the club between them. 74 goals for Rashford, 73 goals for Martial.
And have assisted 86 goals between then. Almost identical; 44 assists for Martial & 42 assists for Rashford.
They are now two experienced players who have been playing as the highest level for a number of years. They’ve won trophies at the club and experienced all the highs & lows of being a United player.
Some fans still treat them like they’re 19 year olds. I rate the both of them, and feel that a better coach can take our entire attack to the next level. Rashford is capable of scoring 30 goals a season, while Martial can be a complete ST who chips in with 20+ goals & 12 odd assists a season. Add Greenwood from RW/RF into the equation, and we have the recipe for a very potent attack.
If our full-backs can become more influential, that would greatly benefit Rashford and Greenwood.
Martial can hold the ball up and link the play similar to what Firmino did/does for Liverpool. But with a better end product in front of goal. His mentality and work rate are the two question marks. Can he develop a winning mentality and be more efficient at pressing the opposition into making mistakes.
Martial is closing in on 250 appearances for the club. As is Rashford.
They’ve scored almost 150 goals for the club between them. 74 goals for Rashford, 73 goals for Martial.
And have assisted 86 goals between then. Almost identical; 44 assists for Martial & 42 assists for Rashford.
They are now two experienced players who have been playing as the highest level for a number of years. They’ve won trophies at the club and experienced all the highs & lows of being a United player.
Some fans still treat them like they’re 19 year olds. I rate the both of them, and feel that a better coach can take our entire attack to the next level. Rashford is capable of scoring 30 goals a season, while Martial can be a complete ST who chips in with 20+ goals & 12 odd assists a season. Add Greenwood from RW/RF into the equation, and we have the recipe for a very potent attack.
If our full-backs can become more influential, that would greatly benefit Rashford and Greenwood.
Martial can hold the ball up and link the play similar to what Firmino did/does for Liverpool. But with a better end product in front of goal. His mentality and work rate are the two question marks. Can he develop a winning mentality and be more efficient at pressing the opposition into making mistakes.
With the exception of Messi, please name me a world class player who played regularly from 18 at one of the worlds top clubs and was consistently world class?
Most players don’t hit consistent world class form until 24/25. Even Ronaldo was frustrating for his first 3 seasons at United.
Most players don’t hit consistent world class form until 24/25. Even Ronaldo was frustrating for his first 3 seasons at United.
Great post. Spot on.
Caf can never see that, unfortunately.
But I agree, out of Rashford (always heavy touch when facing back of the goal), Greenwood (lightweight, for now), Martial has the best ability to hold the ball out of them.
They are not a problem. Last season, when they were out at separate times for an extended period of time, with just one of them in the squad, it was a big problem for us. So far this season, when Martial was out for his suspension, could see a big difference in our attacking threat.
It doesn't help when from game to game they keep changing the team setup right now and then you have games where our midfield can hardly get them into the game, because the ball is being played back and forth between the CMs and the defenders and once in a while a ball gets played to them hoping they can conjure up something on their own.
We don't even bloody well press in a consistent manner as a team, half the time the front players try press and they look back only to realize they have no actual support - so yeah then they get "lazy".
I think the 2 of them work well together, when given an opportunity, they look for each other often rather than be selfish. We just have to be a lot better at getting them actual touches that aren't hopefully balls and something they can work with a bit more.
It doesn't help when from game to game they keep changing the team setup right now and then you have games where our midfield can hardly get them into the game, because the ball is being played back and forth between the CMs and the defenders and once in a while a ball gets played to them hoping they can conjure up something on their own.
We don't even bloody well press in a consistent manner as a team, half the time the front players try press and they look back only to realize they have no actual support - so yeah then they get "lazy".
I think the 2 of them work well together, when given an opportunity, they look for each other often rather than be selfish. We just have to be a lot better at getting them actual touches that aren't hopefully balls and something they can work with a bit more.
6 goals snd 3 assists in 10 games of UCL & PL is not rubbish, that’s good number and we had slow start of the season so far.
Martial has been rubbish in the league but it reflects to our team as we had slow start. In UCL he had 2 goals and 2 assists in 3 games which not bad.
Both will improve every week, but then again this type of inconsistency is what Ole knew all along which is why he wanted at least one of Sancho or Grealish or any wide forward/winger.
I think you've picked the two players in our squad im least worried about. I think half our matches they've barely touched the ball as our midfield and defence were busy having a meltdown. They didn't look particularly sharp but there wasn't much for them to work with so its hard to hold recent results against them.
Neither is perfect and theres better forwards in football, but not that many and not by much of a margin. Some competition and having other players on the pitch for people to worry about (not dan james or fred for instance) and they'll be fine in any and every competition.
Neither is perfect and theres better forwards in football, but not that many and not by much of a margin. Some competition and having other players on the pitch for people to worry about (not dan james or fred for instance) and they'll be fine in any and every competition.
One of the best analytical posts I’ve seen here.
Hit the spot about Rashfords flashiness but lack of top level touch and technique. Also verbalized how i feel about martial being very good technically at dribbling and his finesse finshes, but limited (probably not because he can’t do it, but because he just never tried) at other technical aspects such as using his weak foot oand having to contort his body to use his preferred stance.
As an amateur club technical coach I’m always on the look out for these things, and this post was superb.
I agree both are really frustrating. I had hoped after a good end last season Martial would kick on this season but has been pretty average (not helped by the red card ofcourse). Rashford's decision making in final 3rd is really bad, apart from that quick hattrick his finishing also is not at the elite level for a club looking to win trophies. We can certainly do with an elite striker with rotation of Rashford and Martial on the left.
Read the post I quoted before jumping in like this
17 goals in 31, without injuries, Rashford would have beaten this treshold. He has the ability to do so for me and this without being a central striker even.
Rashford has 7 goals and 2 assists in 11 appearances this season. Ofcourse he's a "problem".
Spot on.
The main concern I see is that they're both better against certain types of opposition and less good against others. For example, Rashford is almost unplayable when he's running into space on the counter. Against teams that sit back in a low block and give us the ball, it's almost like he doesn't quite know what to do with them. I think they're both a little bit better when they have space and the opportunity to burn teams with their pace.
Martial's problems seem different. I actually think he's fine as a number 9 or 9.5, just that he lacks a few little things - he needs to be more clinical in front of goal and he needs to improve his off-the-ball work a little bit more. In general he seems a player very dependent on form, motivation, and confidence.
What they need is an experienced player to take the load off them and allow them time to just play and work out how to improve their deficiencies. Cavani will help a bit I'm sure, but also a bigger performance from whoever plays as RWF. I also think they will come good as the season goes on, which is what we saw last season from both of them.
Our bigger issues are getting the balance right in midfield and figuring out what to do when some of our defenders have bad games.
Martial's problems seem different. I actually think he's fine as a number 9 or 9.5, just that he lacks a few little things - he needs to be more clinical in front of goal and he needs to improve his off-the-ball work a little bit more. In general he seems a player very dependent on form, motivation, and confidence.
What they need is an experienced player to take the load off them and allow them time to just play and work out how to improve their deficiencies. Cavani will help a bit I'm sure, but also a bigger performance from whoever plays as RWF. I also think they will come good as the season goes on, which is what we saw last season from both of them.
Our bigger issues are getting the balance right in midfield and figuring out what to do when some of our defenders have bad games.
Total respect for getting the phrase "attack the space" into your post, a phrase that has been missing from the caf for far too long!
I've had issues with Rashford for ages but it seems you can't say a bad word bout him at times, like he is almost immune from criticism.
After our win in Paris, Rio got it spot on. He said the difference between Rashford & Mbappe is, The latter receives the ball and looks to drive at you. Rashford on the other hand, looks up and looks what's around him, almost hesitant to use his pace at times.
Because of this, it can be hard to find where he is at his best. His 1v1 finishing isn't good enough to play No9 and his dribbling isn't consistent enough to play wide. He struggles against the low block because he has no invention to his passing. If there isn't space, he can drift out of a game quite easily.
Rashford & Martials inconsistencies match the teams. A real striker of real quality would improve us a lot.
Both great players on their day but have to many off days. Strong competition for wide ledt/right and a striker would improve our team consistently ten fold.
I'm not a hater, just very frustrated
After our win in Paris, Rio got it spot on. He said the difference between Rashford & Mbappe is, The latter receives the ball and looks to drive at you. Rashford on the other hand, looks up and looks what's around him, almost hesitant to use his pace at times.
Because of this, it can be hard to find where he is at his best. His 1v1 finishing isn't good enough to play No9 and his dribbling isn't consistent enough to play wide. He struggles against the low block because he has no invention to his passing. If there isn't space, he can drift out of a game quite easily.
Rashford & Martials inconsistencies match the teams. A real striker of real quality would improve us a lot.
Both great players on their day but have to many off days. Strong competition for wide ledt/right and a striker would improve our team consistently ten fold.
I'm not a hater, just very frustrated
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That's so untrue. By all means criticise him constructively but the abuse gets personal and irrational at times.
I get that it's the match day thread and emotions run high but when you get," he's shit", " he's not a footballer," etc... It loses all credibility
Martial, with his excellent attitude, will be the best player in the world in few years.
I am serious.
I am serious.
It's not untrue, it's my opinion.
You won't find me calling them shit or he's not a footballer ect.. Not in my post or on match day.
Maybe I make myself feel bad for criticising him.
Wasn't referring to you personally mate. There are some idiots who can't stop themselves on matchday.
He earns criticism for his inconsistency and decision making at times. When he should take a player on he looks to pass, and is accused of being greedy when he goes it alone. It shouldn't be what he's remembered for as a footballer. He's damn close to 100 goals for Utd, that's impressive but it should be already
Not like you @Pogue Mahone to make such a sensationalist headline?
Rashford and Martial is not a problem, they are two resources. There are problems with finding out how to get the best out of them. They are both consistent in the way that they play at a high level regularily, improve regularily (in bounds and leaps, as improvement normally come), and put in increasingly good numbers for the team, season by season. They are inconsistant in a way that’s normal for players their age. Spells of inaccuracy. Spells of anonymity, spells of bad decisions. The dilemma for a manager is: Should one allow the team to consistently and slowly reduce it’s inconsistency by blooding the two of them constantly and make them learn that way, or should one buy another player at their skill level but more consistent (would cost €100m at leat), or a consistent player at a lower skill level, and take the inconsistency in the form rotation, bedding in and the limitations of the new player.
Rashford and Martial have shown themselves to be consistent enough to put us on the second highest level, which 3rd in the PL and consistent SF in all cups must be said to be. I think the way were playing it now, putting our money on them developing further, while having a top class experienced alternative and a highly talented understudy also developing into an alternative, is a good one. It’s not a quick fix, but it’s a pretty sure bet in my eyes.
Rashford I would keep no matter what. Martial is a Nani-like player to me, his top level is brilliant, his weaknesses makes me wonder if he’ll ever make that last step. Still, he is not a problem. He is a great player to have, and I have some time for a player like him. Particularily when heis not forced to play as the only alternative is Jesse or Odion.
Rashford and Martial is not a problem, they are two resources. There are problems with finding out how to get the best out of them. They are both consistent in the way that they play at a high level regularily, improve regularily (in bounds and leaps, as improvement normally come), and put in increasingly good numbers for the team, season by season. They are inconsistant in a way that’s normal for players their age. Spells of inaccuracy. Spells of anonymity, spells of bad decisions. The dilemma for a manager is: Should one allow the team to consistently and slowly reduce it’s inconsistency by blooding the two of them constantly and make them learn that way, or should one buy another player at their skill level but more consistent (would cost €100m at leat), or a consistent player at a lower skill level, and take the inconsistency in the form rotation, bedding in and the limitations of the new player.
Rashford and Martial have shown themselves to be consistent enough to put us on the second highest level, which 3rd in the PL and consistent SF in all cups must be said to be. I think the way were playing it now, putting our money on them developing further, while having a top class experienced alternative and a highly talented understudy also developing into an alternative, is a good one. It’s not a quick fix, but it’s a pretty sure bet in my eyes.
Rashford I would keep no matter what. Martial is a Nani-like player to me, his top level is brilliant, his weaknesses makes me wonder if he’ll ever make that last step. Still, he is not a problem. He is a great player to have, and I have some time for a player like him. Particularily when heis not forced to play as the only alternative is Jesse or Odion.
Rashfords decision making is pretty poor. He has no spacial awareness and often gets robbed just as he’s going to shoot or release the ball.
I think Rashfords LF position is safe and it’s Martials CF position that is up for grabs. When he’s good he’s really good, but like now, when he isn’t scoring he looks lazy and unmotivated. Next season it could very well be;
Rashford —— Greenwood—— Sancho
I think Rashfords LF position is safe and it’s Martials CF position that is up for grabs. When he’s good he’s really good, but like now, when he isn’t scoring he looks lazy and unmotivated. Next season it could very well be;
Rashford —— Greenwood—— Sancho