Aye, and quoting our finishing position adds nothing, we got there on extremely low points and our tail end of that season, the start of the rot was utter crap.
Ralf Rangnick | ex-interim manager | does anyone rate him?
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Aye, and quoting our finishing position adds nothing, we got there on extremely low points and our tail end of that season, the start of the rot was utter crap.
That is just so incredebly bad.
I hope some will have plenty of patience because ETH will need all the support plus time to correct this course we have been on for the last 9 years. Ralf sure as hell hasn't got that but it's clear for all to see what the problems are that is at least partly thanks to Ralf.
The level we were at with Ole is this season not last. Last season is completely irrelevant because that's not where these players are at.
Some of you lot still haven't figured out that this season wasn't just a blip, it was always coming. We relied on individual brilliance (as most of us tried to point out) and without that (Bruno especially) we collapsed. I mean no shit we were great when Bruno had the best form in Europe
No manager can come in and turn on individual brilliance like a tap and trying to impose a proper system mid season is problematic. The system part will take ETH time as well so if our players don't find their own form then it'll be rough start to next season too.
Yet there are managers that are able to come in mid-season and transform teams.
Ernesto Valverde took over Valencia in 12th place and got them to finish 5th.
Lucien Favre took over Borussia Monchengladbach bottom of the table and 7 points from safety with 12 games to go and managed to keep them up.
Rudi Garcia took over Lyon 1 point above the relegation zone and got them to 7th as well as the semi-finals of the Champions League knocking out Juventus and Man City.
It's a shame none of them were available to be the interim manager, oh wait....
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It always comes back to this. Pep also wanted Bravo, Negredo etc. The difference is when City buy a player who isn't good enough they replace them rapidly. United hold onto them hoping some Messiah manager can come along to make players better than their actual level.
City and Liverpool have bought Pep and Klopp entirely new teams. That should wake people up to the fact that even the best coaches in the world can't do magic. Besides United there's no team in the world that persists with the idea that 'the right man' can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.
Agreed. This really frustrated me seeing his press conference yesterday.
Talk all you want about recruitment, the reckless of our managers is also another reason we are where we are. Our board and our fans have been willing to let them do almost anything, particularly LVG and Mourinho.
Ole never had the players playing like this. Even at our absolute worst under him at the start of 19/20, when we had no creativity, completely relied on penalties for wins and every game was a scrap, we still always had energy and belief. James, Pereira and Lingard were consistent features on those teams, Pogba was out, Bruno wasn't here yet, yet somehow we still looked more competitive than we do now.
I wanted Ole gone because I believed he didn't have what it takes to win us the league, but I did believe he could get us to top 4 this season if he had stayed. I don't believe we would have had the dressing room issues, outside of Greenwood, with him here.
I'm saying this to say that people have shifted the goalpost when it comes to the expectations of a manager based on Rangnick. Fans expect full commitment from players regardless of how poorly managed the team or players are by a manager, but that's not how it works. Many top teams have had managers that didn't mesh with their players due to uninspiring training methods or poor communication with the managers losing their job or the support of the board as a result, because getting the best out of players is part of the job. Unfortunately at United, despite the idea of player power, our managers have essentially had a bit more support than they otherwise should have when they come in. They get far too much control and this has led to several behavioral issues from some of our managers, with fans expecting players to eat it up regardless because they are the manager. Not every manager is Ferguson, not every manager has the capacity to think of the club rather than their individual success. Not every manager cares about the treatment of his players or wanting the best for the players careers; this is why a director of football is relatively important. Rangnick gets to come out each week to tell us what he thinks about the club and what is happening. The players don't. That's when leaks start to happen. Unfortunately, United are so big that news outlets care about and want to run every single story coming out of the club. So this becomes news, with people talking about how dysfunctional we are as a club based on us having leaks, despite the fact that they occur at other clubs which are having issues at the time. I'm sure Juventus currently have a lot of leaks, yet two years ago, noone would have called them poorly run.
Well of course there is, that doesn't mean appointing Sam Allardyce would have been the better option though does it.
There's little value in comparing the improvement of teams that far down the table or lesser leagues, it doesn't equate to the improvements needed for a top 4 push. Look at Klopp, even as a permanent manager which brings with it more authority he barely improved their league position in the first season finishing 8th. Yet Tuchel came in and quickly lifted Chelsea and if you look at the context between what Klopp took over and Tuchel it's easy to see why that might be. Context matters and we're much closer to what Liverpool were, a team with major issues needing a rebuild rather than Chelsea who just needed an effective system.
He should take a few risks on Tuesday. He has nothing to lose. Play Maguire as CF and play Bailly in CB and Jones in midfield. Get someone like Garnacho to play alongside Maguire at CF.
Ole needed to go because we would not have sacked him despite the fact that he would not lead us to the league. The truth is, however, that he was nowhere near as bad as fans like to make out. I actually think he did pretty well with United, outside of the slump. That midfield was always a massive hinderance, the presence of Pogba was always a massive issue...I do blame him for not dealing with these issues during his term, but I also think on the field, the style of play he had suffered as a result of not resolving these issues. Rangnick is only proving how well Ole actually did during those years, yet people seem hellbent on keeping that narrative of him being horrible yet excusing Rangnick for his absolute failure due to his " philosophy" and experience. We give managers far too much power at this club to our own detriment. Madrid in the 2000s were pressuring managers that did far less damage in the dressing room than Rangnick is currently doing. We did the same with LVG and Mourinho. It's annoying because despite how big we are, as a club we are far too nice about things. It feels like we are begging these managers to take a job that many consider to be the biggest in world football. So when they come, we treat everyone like they are highly referred. It's one thing to treat a manager like Mourinho like that, but a manager like Rangnick should never be given that respect. We've given managers too much time and too much respect and that is why we are here. Not because of the Glazers, not even because of Woodward, but because these two have allowed some of the managers do whatever they want, given them far too much time doing that and finally sacking them when damage has been done and a new rebuild is needed. LVG stayed far longer than he should have and decimated our squad ( based on a self serving 352, trying to prove himself as some type of youth bringer and ego purposes)...this led to Mourinho being given years to rebuild our team ( which he didn't, he decided that he wanted superstars for big money which led to the stupid wage bill we currently have)....then came Ole, with his british recruitment policy when has proven not to work either. Big projects that cost a lot of money, consistently not working, based on ideas from Managers, not the club
I don't think Sam Allardyce would have done any worse than Rangnick.
Klopp still managed to get Liverpool from 10th to 8th and were only 6 points off of 4th. They also had lots of injuries that season too.
Your point that there's little value comparing improvement in teams further down the league is nonsense.
Either the players are underperforming or they aren't and without a doubt our players were underperforming under Ole and they're still underperforming now.
I have absolutely no doubt Favre, Valverde or Garcia would have improved us defensively, had us playing better football and players performing better.
That could have obviously been problematic as they might have done too well like Ole.
He could have at least played a back 3 to take some responsibility off of the forward players playing out of position defensively. If we were playing a mid-table team we likely would have been 2-3 down in the first half. Any time Norwich were able to attempt a counter, we looked exposed with both our midfield and fullbacks out of position at the same time. Seems to me that it would make more sense to start on the conservative side and go more attacking in the second half if you are still down/level then do what we did yesterday and pray we don't conceded 3-4 times.
He repeatedly said it was not the team selection and the way he set them up but the players not listening to him. Two of the players starting are leaving. Two who came on are leaving. One is not interested in playing football. One is out of form and the other is a youngster just starting his career and the other is a geriatric who is coming to the end of his career.
I rate him for the sole fact that he calls out our shite team and players, meanwhile still sounding like a nice guy.
Exactly.
‘Furthermore, it is possible for both the squad AND the manager to be at fault for our poor performances. Ralf has done literally nothing to lift the squad to perform better. Isn’t that what we hired him here to do?
Despite getting ripped apart by Liverpool, City and Watford, you think he'd have managed to finish 4th? Weird. The start of this season is the worst we've been since pre-Ferguson
Ralf was not able to bring in all the coaches he wanted, he was not able to bring in any new players, he had to manage the Greenwood situation and many of the players are leaving at the end of the season so some do not care either way.
He has made some odd selections, but by and large, you expect that from a lot of new managers when they are trying to figure out the players and a system. I cannot really find myself blaming him for much at all to be honest.
He has made some odd selections, but by and large, you expect that from a lot of new managers when they are trying to figure out the players and a system. I cannot really find myself blaming him for much at all to be honest.
I’ve been making this very point for 2 months. A back three, when played correctly, allows one of the CBs to step between the lines and challenge the CF when they drop, act as an auxiliary DM with some coverage behind. It’s not surprising that the opportunities were created when the CB was caught coming late, our very poor fullbacks were out of position, and we were scrambling to recover.
The so-called tactical genius hasn’t at least tried a back 3? Seriously? With injuries/deficiencies at DM?
Say what you want about our players effort, Ole, whatever… the fact of the matter is that Ralf has been poor tactically, poor man management, poor in training, and even made some poor decisions in the coaches he chose to bring in (Armas).
well said. But some are simply so short-memory and blindly believe Ralf is a good interim manager no matter how the reality is. Now, every player becomes scapegoat.
Yes. As you mentioned, we played City and Pool. We had a run of fixtures that any decent manager would have gotten something out of after Ole left. Rangnick didn't do anything useful in those fixtures which has resulted in us scrapping for 4th on the brink of not getting it.
Alternatively, whenever the team plays poorly, fans such as yourself refuse to blame the players and in this case, seem to blame a manager who has not even got his own full coaching set up nor had an opportunity to buy any new players?
And got twatted/humiliated by Watford and Leicester (who are shite themselves), got beat by Villa at home & beaten by Young Boys.
Enough pretending that run was just tough games
Both Leicester and Watford spanked us worse than City ffs.That run after Ole left included better teams than Villa, Young Boys & Watford yet somehow Ole would’ve just flicked a switch because we had some “easy games”? My arse he would, he ended on a Watford humiliation and would’ve been spanked by Villareal, Chelsea and Arsenal, and he loved getting beaten at home to Palace, made it a yearly thing. Make no mistake, we were going in one direction, off a fecking cliff.
I think that it is possible, intellectually, to blame both the players and Ralf. Ralf can be shitty and the players can be shitty. Ralf isn’t making the adjustments to get the best out of the players, whether that is tactics, playing a different 11, etc.
Just watching the post game presser made me sick to my stomach. How on fecking earth, does he basically surrender, run up the white flag when asked about Liverpool on Tuesday? Seriously. His job is to get the squad prepared for a derby. His message has to be one that is uplifting, no matter how bad the performance was on Saturday. It should be “anything can happen in a derby, we are going to fight, etc.”
He is a clown, and he’s making the team even worse off mentally by his crap.
You seem to me narrow-minded as the way you invent the words I have never said.
I don’t know why people can’t accept the fact that the appointment of Ralf as the interim manager is a failure.
It’s time to move on and hope ETH can work out.
This is factually just wrong. He first tried a 4-2-2-2 and also tried implementing pressing before realizing the players were not up to it and changing back the formations. He also introduced Dalot and Elanga into the team dropping AWB and Rashford to the bench, both of which would not have happened under Ole. What more changes can he make, given how small the squad has become?
He literally says that twice:
He basically says exactly at 5:17:
"And now we have to create, somehow something that probably nobody would expect, but in football things like that happen at times so we have to be up for that game on Tuesday, and yeah we will see".
At 8:18 he says:
"Everybody has seen today's game, and we all know against what kind of team we are playing on Tuesday. They won at Manchester City today, they are in the cup final and might even in the end have the chance to win four trophies this season. If we play like that, if we play like we did today it will be very very difficult to get even a point out of this game. This is what we have to be realistically aware of, so we need to raise our own level and standard.
Probably Fred and Scott will not be back. Raphael Varane will also be [in] a tight race for the game on Tuesday, so far he has not trained with the team. So we have to be aware with the players we had available today we have to drive to Liverpool and just get anything out of that game. If possible, we need three points. That can happen in football, it has happened before, but we have to be realistic, we have to play a lot better if Liverpool is in possession of the ball as we did today."
So it seems you ignored what he said.
I think you would be making this comment regardless of what he said." Now, every player becomes scapegoat. "
Can you share with us why you think it is NOT fair to criticise every single player and why you also think it is also fair to blame a manager who has been here only a few months, has not been backed in the transfer market, lost a player due to a criminal court case and was also not able to bring in all the staff he wanted?
And got twatted/humiliated by Watford and Leicester (who are shite themselves), got beat by Villa at home & beaten by Young Boys.
Enough pretending that run was just tough games
That run after Ole left included better teams than Villa, Young Boys & Watford yet somehow Ole would’ve just flicked a switch because we had some “easy games”? My arse he would, he ended on a Watford humiliation and would’ve been spanked by Villareal, Chelsea and Arsenal, and he loved getting beaten at home to Palace, made it a yearly thing. Make no mistake, we were going in one direction, off a fecking cliff.
It was quite clear he had to go before the Watford game even started, I’ve no idea what they were thinking. There is context missing in those three games you mention though. I’m pretty sure Rangick’s first three games would have been similar if we went down to 10 men, missed last minute penalties and Lingard decided to play a perfect through ball to a palace player with the last touch of the game.
fecking hell the players have been a joke this year looking back
Some people just have a problem admitting they were wrong.
I was also one of the people enthused by appointment after seeing him speak about pressing but he clearly hasn't been able to back up his words on the pitch and I was wrong for wanting him over the other interim candidates.
It's pretty clear to anyone with a few functioning brain cells that Favre, Garcia and Valverde would have done a much better job than Rangnick.
So because people have a different opinion to yours it must therefore mean they have a difficulty "admitting they are wrong".
I am curious to know what you think those managers would do better, if they also were not able to bring in all of their desired backroom staff, were not given any funds to buy layers in January and also had players that had already decided to leave in Jan as well?
Obviously, most of players tried to give their all when playing. But, they don’t know how to. It’s down to the manager to find the right system and the right mix with the right man management. Ralf was appointed as the interim manager for the only reason, to revive our season. He failed. That’s why we are behind Spurs and Arsenal could get back ahead of us, even though we have treat them like laughing stock for two years. Our players are low on confidence and played like fragile glasses whenever there is an incident against them. They are good players. It’s as simple as that.
I am wondering why you think every player is unprofessional and doesn’t care to give a good performance as much as possible?I mean, come on, seriously?!
Is it because they are easy target to blame no matter what? Is it because they are not human beings? Is it because they are slaves? Is it because they earn too much as compared with normal people? Is it because you just simply think they are bad and are always bad?
Anyway, I don’t try to convince you anything. I am just speaking out my opinion and you have every right to believe what you believe.
Difference with us and Chelsea is when things go bad chelsea see the manager at fault and sack for another manager still in their prime who can work with the majority of players at the club, us on he other demand a squad revamp and do mental gymnastics to defend the past it (mourinho, lvg) and average (ole, ralf, moyes) managers .
One example has resulted in league, European Cup trophies and the other has resulted in neither.
One example has resulted in league, European Cup trophies and the other has resulted in neither.
Yes, they have been unprofessional and it has been called out not just by me but also now by pundits. Lots of our players have been observed to just be walking on the pitch, doing nothing. Two of the English lads, Lingard and Rashford, who rarely get criticised by the media, were criticised for it only a short while ago.
Even the players themselves have said there is a lack of motivation:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...w-slams-manchester-uniteds-attitude-wtfl8j9l9
It is not the entire team but there are enough players there that it makes it a problem at the highest level.
I do not even know what point you are trying to make regarding slavery or salary.
Because if they are they would try to make an effort. Getting outplayed and not making a serious effort is very different. How many players just jog back? More than one for sure. Individually we can compete apart from top two to three teams. But effort wise we are among the bottom.
Other side of the coin though .. maybe these players would have worked for pep, in a better system.
And yes, if Maguire didn't work out pep would have replaced him in six months for another 60m, makes you wonder why people see it as such a barrier that we signed Maguire as if the team needs 5 windows to resolve something so simple (if it indeed is a problem)
I think he's actually doing just fine. Saving the season, getting fourth place etc... I'm not sure it really matters.
Assuming he's moving to a role "upstairs" come the summer, we're going to have a man in a place of authority who knows all there is to know about the players and staff in the club. I think that's a positive step, and hopefully he hangs around for a few years.
I don't see any point in him messing around with "damage limitation" formations (like playing three at the back) because that only serves to cover up the complete lack of commitment and focus in the team. Expose the players. Quite fecking right.
Rangnick, rather than being in a weak position due to his interim role, is actually in a win-win situation in my eyes. If we're shit, we all know it's the players - they've been half-arsing it for years. If we're good, it's because the players are responding to him. Either way, he's got a good job come the summer and the new manager has an experienced inside line on everything. Hopefully.
Assuming he's moving to a role "upstairs" come the summer, we're going to have a man in a place of authority who knows all there is to know about the players and staff in the club. I think that's a positive step, and hopefully he hangs around for a few years.
I don't see any point in him messing around with "damage limitation" formations (like playing three at the back) because that only serves to cover up the complete lack of commitment and focus in the team. Expose the players. Quite fecking right.
Rangnick, rather than being in a weak position due to his interim role, is actually in a win-win situation in my eyes. If we're shit, we all know it's the players - they've been half-arsing it for years. If we're good, it's because the players are responding to him. Either way, he's got a good job come the summer and the new manager has an experienced inside line on everything. Hopefully.
I’d take honesty over delusion 7 days of the week. It’s done our players no favours having years of Ole defending them and shielding them at every turn, we as fans also shouldn’t be under any illusions of the gap between ourselves and Pool.
This season might be the worst ever if they can win the quad, if you can’t see how good they are you’re watching the wrong sport.
Additionally, if anything our only hope is to big them up and hope for a tiny bit of complacency to creep in. Klopp’s already been saying how tough we’ll be to play - standard manager chat, the favourite talks it down, the underdog talks the opponent up.
It’ll happen right away. Despite what people have said, we actually move off the ball and our passes have way much te structure and flare. Rewatching the Norwich game right now, Ralf is definitely making it easier for the next manager.
Watching the Norwich game it’s miles different than what we did under Ole. Pass, not move into space, drop back is what we used to do. I feel like Ralf was brought in to rewrite and rewire the squads instincts. It’s been slow for sure and terrible form by Maguire in particular coincided with so many bad results. It also didn’t kick on at first but the signs are a hundred percent there.
Yes, because who the feck cares where anyone finishes in the league.
People see it as a problem because of the way the club is run. The senior management at Manchester United, for some reason, refuses to accept any mistakes. The same players are retained and retried over and over in the hope that, by some act of God, they will suddenly come good. Worse, even when the club recognises that it a player isn't going to hit the heights with us, the senior management at Manchester United tries to recoup as much money as possible for them. That tends to leave the players in question languishing at the club, since nobody is willing to pay the fees we want, and match anything close to the wages we pay, for our squad players.
We could refresh our squad very quickly. Ralf Rangnick is right: Three transfer windows, a season and a half, should be enough. However, that will take a complete shift in mentality from the same people who gave Eric Bailly and Lee Grant new contracts last summer. Will it happen? I suspect that, if our senior management ran City, players like Mangala, Angelino and Danilo would still be there. With the bosses asking why the manager can't get something out of these players they spent so much on. If these people were willing to cut their losses it'd be easier to believe the club might move forward. However, after 9 years of this clown show, nobody seriously believes that there will be much change next (or any) transfer window.
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