Racism in Italy - even anti-racism is filled with racism

Cagliari avoid Serie A sanction for fans’ racist abuse of Romelu Lukaku
Lega Serie A rule that chants could not be considered discriminatory
Guardian said:
Following an investigation the Italian Football Federation’s (FIGC) sporting justice panel has ruled that the chants could not be considered discriminatory in terms of their “scale and realisation”.

A statement from Lega Serie A on Tuesday said the panel had therefore decided not to apply sanctions to Cagliari.

Cagliari police told FIGC investigators that “only on the occasion” of Lukaku’s penalty were “chants, shouts and whistles aimed at the opposition athlete as he prepared to take his shot”.

Individual spectators were observed chanting at the Belgian but, because of the volume of the noise emanating from the stand, it was claimed that it was not clear what was being said and so it could not be proven that it was discriminatory
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SteveJ said:
Cagliari avoid Serie A sanction for fans’ racist abuse of Romelu Lukaku
Lega Serie A rule that chants could not be considered discriminatory

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:lol: you can only laugh
 
Cassidy said:
This is perceived is what I am pointing out. Many, actually most in football cope with it very well. Weakness vs flaw it is really semantics I think we are saying the same thing. I am simply pointing out that jumping to the conclusion that, that is the players weak spot / flaw (or what ever word you want to use) because the player is black says enough
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I think i understand what you're saying, but the fact is racial abuse worked as intended enough times to generate that perception(it only needed to work a couple times and for it to become a major talking point/a couple players admitting it worked, for that to happen)
 
sammsky1 said:
It’s actually a complete falsity. Lukaku is no more ‘black’ than Rooney is ‘white’.

If you used a colour palette as reference, Lukaku skin colour would be a very dark brown, and Rooney would be a light pink. In fact I can’t think of any racial group to have ‘pure black’ skin.

Black and white as colours used to describe skin colours is an ancient western construct, implying good vs evil and pure vs impure.

You probably only read and speak English: a language which has evolved by pink people through racist colonial times. And the English language is loaded with adjectives to imply white (pink) superiority.

I’d you spoke Hindi, Zulu, Swahili, Arabic or Mandarin, you’d see just how pronounced that phenomenon is within English language.

Read up on it. It’s a vastly researched and known concept.

https://trc.org.nz/sites/trc.org.nz/files/Racism in the English Language.pdf
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Excellent read. Though I am not sure if it is only English language guilty of this. Of the languages you have listed I know Hindi and it is replete with idioms or other cultural mores that equate black with evil, shame etc.
 
Serie A sucks balls. Never a top league for me. How corrupt do you have to be to have that outcome on the Cagliari incident?!
 
Dorian Gray said:
Excellent read. Though I am not sure if it is only English language guilty of this. Of the languages you have listed I know Hindi and it is replete with idioms or other cultural mores that equate black with evil, shame etc.
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Yeah, India is such a vast country with a vast palette of skin colours and accompanying racism within the country towards darker skin colours.

You’re right in your observation about Hindi , dark skin colour also implies you are a lower caste agricultural peasant (working outdoors under the hot sun) as opposed to lighter skin which is the ruling class.

I wonder if Tamil, Telegu, Kannada or Malayalam (cultures with majority darker skin colour) would have similar?
 
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sammsky1 said:
Yeah, India is such a vast country with a vast palette of skin colours and accompanying racism within the country for darker skin colours.

You’re right in your observation about Hindi , dark skin colour also implies you are a lower caste agricultural peasant (working in sun) as opposed to lighter skin which is the ruling class.

I wonder if Tamil or Malayalam (cultures with majority darker skin colour) would have similar?
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The bold part is true for the Northern India mostly. And though Southern cultures have majority dark skin but still there is an association of beauty with fairness. You only have to see the movie actresses in the south to confirm this.

India in general is obsessed with fair skin. And we have a close to a billion dollar industry to perpetuate and sustain this obsession. Brain dead TVCs that equate fair skin with success in life.
Though I wouldn't call it 'racism' per se. Because frankly, there is no different 'race' involved here. It permeates across all boundaries. For instance cousins making fun of darker skinned siblings - close relatives suggesting remedies to lighten skin tones etc.
 
Watched the first half of Inters game and he looked the same as when he was here, slow and lumbering.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
Yes, five people who didn't bother to read the whole post. If someone hadn't pointed out the actual intend of the post (which was pretty obvious), said poster would now be widely regarded as a racist. So I think an apology is in order.
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The fact that it was so misinterpreted shows it wasn't very well done. I'm not going to apologize for that, no one should. I'm just glad it was a parody, even if it was a poor one. Let's move on.
 
sammsky1 said:
It’s actually a complete falsity. Lukaku is no more ‘black’ than Rooney is ‘white’.

If you used a colour palette as reference, Lukaku skin colour would be a very dark brown, and Rooney would be a light pink. In fact I can’t think of any racial group to have ‘pure black’ skin.

Black and white as colours used to describe skin colours is an ancient western construct, implying good vs evil and pure vs impure.

You probably only read and speak English: a language which has been evolved by pink people through racist colonial times. And the English language is loaded with adjectives to imply white (pink) superiority.

I’d you spoke Zulu, Swahili, Arabic or Mandarin, you’d see just how pronounced that phenomenon is within English language.

Read up on it. It’s a vastly researched and known concept.

https://trc.org.nz/sites/trc.org.nz/files/Racism in the English Language.pdf

Edit: removed Hindi from list above after correction.
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Thank you for the PDF. You are clearly well read on this subject and this was a very good read.

Also, yes - I do speak Hindi (its my mother tongue and I speak Bengali also). In isolation of my remaining post - what you've highlighted is very damning! It made me feel like I'm racist :(

The point I was making is that skin colour is a fact, but the use of that for any purpose other than identification is racism (regardless of what's the purpose or intent of the usage).

I have big eyes, brown colour, black hair etc - all these are identifiers. That's all. Somebody pointing that out isn't racist. However, when I travel to US, UK or parts of Europe - the surprise that people show on my English language proficiency is racist. It's meant well but it's racist. I prefer to call it 'White Preference'.

Although the language itself is inherently racist - that's entirely expected. It's been put together by people who were racist.

On the Article itself - it's fair to say that history is always written by the victorious. As an Indian, this is a soft one for me. Our reality is that almost all of our history books were written by the British to eradicate 5000 years of culture, religion and history - and they were rebranded as 'myths'. The only history we were really taught is our period of servitude under the Mughals and the English. The cultural "whitewash" was so deep that even today there is a lot of infighting in India on recognising this exact fact.

Here is a link if you are interested: https://www.google.com/amp/s/franco...6/rewriting-indian-history-complete-book/amp/
 
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Dorian Gray said:
Excellent read. Though I am not sure if it is only English language guilty of this. Of the languages you have listed I know Hindi and it is replete with idioms or other cultural mores that equate black with evil, shame etc.
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But Hindi doesn't really refer to individuals as black. The colour denotes evil because our belief system revolves around night being evil (dark arts etc.) and days being good (serene, spiritual etc.)

Our discrimination was largely based on type of work (caste system)!
 
sammsky1 said:
Yeah, India is such a vast country with a vast palette of skin colours and accompanying racism within the country towards darker skin colours.

You’re right in your observation about Hindi , dark skin colour also implies you are a lower caste agricultural peasant (working outdoors under the hot sun) as opposed to lighter skin which is the ruling class.

I wonder if Tamil, Telegu, Kannada or Malayalam (cultures with majority darker skin colour) would have similar?
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Don't agree with that. A lot of our kings were dark coloured. In fact, one of our most successful empires was the Cholas, who were Tamilians and dark skinned. (I've already said what I think about our colour related references in Hindi).

Dorian Gray said:
The bold part is true for the Northern India mostly. And though Southern cultures have majority dark skin but still there is an association of beauty with fairness. You only have to see the movie actresses in the south to confirm this.

India in general is obsessed with fair skin. And we have a close to a billion dollar industry to perpetuate and sustain this obsession. Brain dead TVCs that equate fair skin with success in life.
Though I wouldn't call it 'racism' per se. Because frankly, there is no different 'race' involved here. It permeates across all boundaries. For instance cousins making fun of darker skinned siblings - close relatives suggesting remedies to lighten skin tones etc.
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That is a very recent trend based on our colonial history. Being fair is seen as a sign of being better off now, but this wasn't always the case.

For e.g. Draupadi - who is a mythological goddess and was thought to be the most beautiful woman at the time, was written about originally as a dark woman.
 
Won surprise me if the people running Serie A are engaged in criminal activity with the ultras.
 
Who would've thought that the football forum racism thread would be an even bigger trainwreck than the current events one.
 
Shiva87 said:
Thank you for the PDF. You are clearly well read on this subject and this was a very good read.

Also, yes - I do speak Hindi (its my mother tongue and I speak Bengali also). In isolation of my remaining post - what you've highlighted is very damning! It made me feel like I'm racist :(

The point I was making is that skin colour is a fact, but the use of that for any purpose other than identification is racism (regardless of what's the purpose or intent of the usage).

I have big eyes, brown colour, black hair etc - all these are identifiers. That's all. Somebody pointing that out isn't racist. However, when I travel to US, UK or parts of Europe - the surprise that people show on my English language proficiency is racist. It's meant well but it's racist. I prefer to call it 'White Preference'.

Although the language itself is inherently racist - that's entirely expected. It's been put together by people who were racist.

On the Article itself - it's fair to say that history is always written by the victorious. As an Indian, this is a soft one for me. Our reality is that almost all of our history books were written by the British to eradicate 5000 years of culture, religion and history - and they were rebranded as 'myths'. The only history we were really taught is our period of servitude under the Mughals and the English. The cultural "whitewash" was so deep that even today there is a lot of infighting in India on recognising this exact fact.

Here is a link if you are interested: https://www.google.com/amp/s/franco...6/rewriting-indian-history-complete-book/amp/
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My post was in no way intended to classify you as anything! Just making the point about that line. Apologies if I made you feel bad.

You are right in that using body features to distinguish or classify a person is fine. But the language currently used in English is often false and loaded with historical context.

I’m a life long student of Indian and Asian history and agree with how history has been documented for much of the region. Thanks for the link, which I’ll have a look at.
 
The Firestarter said:
Who would've thought that the football forum racism thread would be an even bigger trainwreck than the current events one.
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I don't know. There was a legit white supremacist rampant in the current events forum for months until he finally got banned.

Can't remember his username
 
Judas said:
Always happens unfortunately. Every time real world issues are discussed you see just how backwards and out of touch they are with reality. Be it racism or homophobia to name just two topics, there's a lot of people on here who I'd have zero interest spending a second of my time with away from the internet, yeah plenty on here know about football, but when it comes to the world in 2019, they're stuck in the dark ages.
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That's very condescending. Surely, you see the irony in that.
 
As usual the Italian FA having acted in a disgraceful manner and this is exactly why the issue continues in Italy.

Can a player file for criminal proceedings against a club for failing to take action against discriminatory behaviour?
 
Harry190 said:
That's very condescending. Surely, you see the irony in that.
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He's not wrong though is he. Bigots arent too afraid to reveal themselves on here. Its a sad reflection of the society we live in unfortunately.
You just have to see the amount of whataboutism and excuses in this thread, truly cringeworthy
 
Tostao_80 said:
He's not wrong though is he. Bigots arent too afraid to reveal themselves on here. Its a sad reflection of the society we live in unfortunately.
You just have to see the amount of whataboutism and excuses in this thread, truly cringeworthy
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While not condoning obvious flaws in character nor judgment, I find that thinking one's point of view to be the only one worth merit troubling. At least, it goes against true freedom of expression. Being progressive for example, is conflated with being good, which is not the case. As a political movement, it's flawed but the word has a positive connotation.
 
Cascarino said:
That's depressing.



What irony?
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The self-aggrandizing part, the absolute handle on morality, the steadfast belief in being 'right'.

I'm only taking this one post into isolation, which is not exactly fair to the poster. I haven't seen much of what happened in this thread lately. People seem upset.
 
All that tells me is Serie A as an institution is racist. Not surprised at all.
 
@Cascarino no worries mate, in retrospect it was obviously a parody especially after @Cassidy explained the final sentence (didn't realize you were talking about Bepi, thought you were still talking about Passirani which confused me). The unfortunate truth is that this thread has been so misinformed that I was primed for your type of post to be totally serious, as that precedent had unfortunately already been set by others.
 
Jam said:
It’s hard to tell what’s “parody” and what’s not recently with the influx of members who are Trump supporters and think Nazis weren’t fascist and were just an example of why socialism is bad.

The lines blurred; what you parody isn’t some far flung belief when a lot of people genuinely have those exact thoughts now.
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There's fecking loads of that sort popping up on here recently.
 
Dead Wood Woodward said:
Was it okay to joke about Lukaku's penis?

That song being sung at Old Trafford did genuinely make me feel uncomfortable about going to games. The thought of thousands of people stood either side of me singing a song about what is obviously a racial stereotype is a somewhat nauseating one.

Anyone with the slightest interest in sociology should be able to recognise how that particular stereotype leads to actual resentment from certain people. I'm not going to go into anecdotes, but I've heard them.

The song wasn't just a stereotype, it was a straight up racist caricature in word form. People just thought it was okay because black people having big penises is meant to be a positive stereotype. It's called the Mandingo stereotype. If you haven't heard of it:



I can appreciate that there was less malice than saying he should be fed bananas but still. The image of a Lukaku banner/flag being unfurled where he has a penis hanging down to below his knee should be able to get anyone to appreciate that it's a caricature of black men.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the racial climate in Malaysia, but:



Something to think about maybe?
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Look, let me reiterate. I too am against blatant racism. And there is a fine line between what is funny and what isn't. It depends on where you draw the line. Personally, the meme in the earlier quoted post was just funny to me. But that doesn't mean I resent certain races. For me, racism means mocking and hating on other races, which is clearly not what I intended. I wasn't talking about the Lukaku chants. I just found the meme to be amusing. It was clearly meant as a joke. Laugh it off. Take a chill pill.

As for my home Malaysia, hateful racism is abundant here and its down to a number of factors but that's for another discussion. But that doesn't mean we cannot joke amongst each other about our respective races. I am Chinese Malaysian and the stereotype is that Chinese are stingy people and I just laugh it off. Or for instance, another stereotype is that Malays are bad drivers, but that doesn't mean I resent them, in fact I have tonnes of Malay mates. Again, I am not a sociology expert but it just depends on where you draw the line and obviously blatant racism like mocking and hating is out of line.
 
Micky Targaryen said:
Look, let me reiterate. I too am against blatant racism. And there is a fine line between what is funny and what isn't. It depends on where you draw the line. Personally, the meme in the earlier quoted post was just funny to me. But that doesn't mean I resent certain races. For me, racism means mocking and hating on other races, which is clearly not what I intended. I wasn't talking about the Lukaku chants. I just found the meme to be amusing. It was clearly meant as a joke. Laugh it off. Take a chill pill.

As for my home Malaysia, hateful racism is abundant here and its down to a number of factors but that's for another discussion. But that doesn't mean we cannot joke amongst each other about our respective races. I am Chinese Malaysian and the stereotype is that Chinese are stingy people and I just laugh it off. Or for instance, another stereotype is that Malays are bad drivers, but that doesn't mean I resent them, in fact I have tonnes of Malay mates. Again, I am not a sociology expert but it just depends on where you draw the line and obviously blatant racism like mocking and hating is out of line.
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I'll agree with this. It's just about finding the right balance when you wanna joke about it.
 
Micky Targaryen said:
Look, let me reiterate. I too am against blatant racism. And there is a fine line between what is funny and what isn't. It depends on where you draw the line. Personally, the meme in the earlier quoted post was just funny to me. But that doesn't mean I resent certain races. For me, racism means mocking and hating on other races, which is clearly not what I intended. I wasn't talking about the Lukaku chants. I just found the meme to be amusing. It was clearly meant as a joke. Laugh it off. Take a chill pill.

As for my home Malaysia, hateful racism is abundant here and its down to a number of factors but that's for another discussion. But that doesn't mean we cannot joke amongst each other about our respective races. I am Chinese Malaysian and the stereotype is that Chinese are stingy people and I just laugh it off. Or for instance, another stereotype is that Malays are bad drivers, but that doesn't mean I resent them, in fact I have tonnes of Malay mates. Again, I am not a sociology expert but it just depends on where you draw the line and obviously blatant racism like mocking and hating is out of line.
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I have lived and worked in Malaysia and Singapore. Like you said, it's a culture where people are more open to making fun of each others race and it's often times done in a playful way. However it also has horrible knock on effects.

For instance, we once had a candidate come in who was Malay. Having previously worked around Malay, Chinese and Indian colleagues I have heard the racial jokes made at the expense of each racial group and the group subjected to the joke always laughed it off. It was a little uncomfortable at first but I then got used to it. My perceptions of it just being a joke changed however when this Malay candidate came in. The guy was excellent and when he was being evaluated, one of my colleagues mentioned casually that he's good but because he's Malay, probably lazy too. This shocked me and I questioned him about him. He looked at me puzzled and said we joke about it all the time so surely you must know.

And therein lies the problem, making fun of stereotypes have deeper implications. And I have seen it for all racial groups - when amongst colleagues, the Indians in the group are made fun of as being drunks and they laugh it off - my Chinese colleague's parent refused to allow her hand in marriage to her Indian boyfriend because they felt he would get drunk and beat her. A different Chinese colleague who got married and didn't invite a few of us was shunned as people kept saying stuff like it's typical of a Chinese person to be ungrateful and greedy.

These things can be funny but also have more serious consequences and that's why we need to be more careful about stereotyping groups of people. If Malaysia is your benchmark for why stereotyping is fine, I think you seriously need to reevaluate.
 
haram said:
All that tells me is Serie A as an institution is racist. Not surprised at all.
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Serie A and the FA as institutions care about one thing only, and that is money. Acknowledging racism would be bad for business

Btw, "Opti Poba came here, before he was eating bananas and now he starts for lazio" . Actually said in an interview before elections by former FIGC president Carlo Tavecchio. Still got elected
 
I guess Kompany was right. If you don't change things within the institutions, you'll change nothing.
 
giorno said:
Serie A and the FA as institutions care about one thing only, and that is money. Acknowledging racism would be bad for business

Btw, "Opti Poba came here, before he was eating bananas and now he starts for lazio" . Actually said in an interview before elections by former FIGC president Carlo Tavecchio. Still got elected
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I will never forget Opti Poba, it was surreal.:lol:
 
Harry190 said:
While not condoning obvious flaws in character nor judgment, I find that thinking one's point of view to be the only one worth merit troubling. At least, it goes against true freedom of expression. Being progressive for example, is conflated with being good, which is not the case. As a political movement, it's flawed but the word has a positive connotation.
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The guy said that he wouldn't want to spend any personal time with racists or homophobes. He didnt say neither had the right to Express themselves, which was your interpretation. Thats not condescending. He has every right to feel that way.
Whats with the rant about progressives not being really good? I have a bad feeling about where you want to take that discussion. People who start off like that usually are the most ignorant and bigoted of the lot.
 
Tostao_80 said:
The guy said that he wouldn't want to spend any personal time with racists or homophobes. He didnt say neither had the right to Express themselves, which was your interpretation. Thats not condescending. He has every right to feel that way.
Whats with the rant about progressives not being really good? I have a bad feeling about where you want to take that discussion. People who start off like that usually are the most ignorant and bigoted of the lot.
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Usually ends up in some kind of rant about free speech, snowflakes and how things were better in the good old days before people got offended about everything.
 
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