Quaranteam Draft R1: Pat/TR vs Jim/Joga

[TheReligion]

It's mostly because your partner wrote him off as not good enough and it rightly backfired on him.

Because I said he's not (in my opinion) a world beater in comparison to the Ballon d'Or winners on the other team? Why should that influence how people view Stoichkov?

@Demyanenko_square_jaw also had reservations as mentioned above.

Ultimately this place has its favourites it seems.

 

[TheReligion]

Thank you and tough luck.

That's a great video, thanks for sharing it!

Gentlemen as always! All the best mate.

 

[harms]

Because I said he's not (in my opinion) a world beater in comparison to the Ballon d'Or winners on the other team? Why should that influence how people view Stoichkov?

@Demyanenko_square_jaw also had reservations as mentioned above.

Ultimately this place has its favourites it seems.

Stoichkov hadn't been discussed at length unlike Rensenbrink because no one had said that Stoichkov wasn't good enough.

He's being played as a CM.

His preferred position was LM.

The stats I posted were his career stats for playing in CM as that's where they are playing him. I did make that clear.

That is not true, plain and simple. Transfermarkt is not a great source if you're trying to assess positions and/or stats of players from the 80's.

 

[TheReligion]

Stoichkov hadn't been discussed at length unlike Rensenbrink because no one had said that Stoichkov wasn't good enough.


That is not true, plain and simple. Transfermarkt is not a great source if you're trying to assess positions and/or stats of players from the 80's.

Again I said he's not in my opinion in the same bracket as Stoichkov etc. Is it such an issue to have a different opinion?

So what are the correct career stats for Lerby in a CM role? Hardly fair to try and make me out as a liar when the numbers are there for all to see on Transfermarkt.

Still despite people laying votes on team JJ I've not seen one person answer the question I posed about the midfield battle, progression and how they will cope without seeing much ball or territory. It seems people would sooner obsess over where Rivelino is positioned on the graphic instead.

 

[harms]

So what are the correct career stats for Lerby in a CM role? Hardly fair to try and make me out as a liar when the numbers are there for all to see on Transfermarkt.

Lerby had played most of his career as a CM. He favoured the left side in the same way that, say, Davids favoured it or van Hanegem favoured it, but those are still central midfielders. If JJ had played Lerby on the right side of that midfield partnership, it would've been weird and not the best use of him probably — thankfully, they didn't. Bayern signed him to replace the midfield version of Breitner. Etc.

This is a game where he supposedly played as a LM, according to transfermarkt:


https://www.transfermarkt.com/denmark_uruguay/index/spielbericht/946149

Not to mention that transfermarkt simply doesn't have stats for all of his career and they don't claim to, so to use goals from transfermarkt (even the combined ones from LM, CM and other positions) and say that those are his career stats is wrong. Tranfermarkt is a great website and it is very useful, but it shouldn't be used as a go-to reference when discussing older players playing style or accurate statistics.

P.S. I'm not trying to make out you as a liar, I'm pointing out that you're using inaccurate sources. I don't believe that it was intentional and I'm not trying to put this point across.

edit: I've been meaning to stop posting this thread as I've probably argued for JJ more than they did themselves combined and it's not really fair to you
I'll do that now.

 

[TheReligion]

Lerby had played most of his career as a CM. He favoured the left side in the same way that, say, Davids favoured it or van Hanegem favoured it, but those are still central midfielders. If JJ had played Lerby on the right side of that midfield partnership, it would've been weird and not the best use of him probably — thankfully, they didn't. Bayern signed him to replace the midfield version of Breitner. Etc.

This is a game where he supposedly played as a LM, according to transfermarkt:


https://www.transfermarkt.com/denmark_uruguay/index/spielbericht/946149

Not to mention that transfermarkt simply doesn't have stats for all of his career and they don't claim to, so to use goals from transfermarkt (even the combined ones from LM, CM and other positions) and say that those are his career stats is wrong.

Thats fair enough RE the stats however I can only work with what is in front of me so it's far from a case of me being disingenuous. Also it still doesn't detract from the point that a Lerby/Kante midfield struggles to match Xavi/Modric/Cambiasso in my opinion (and I've explained why).

They should have put Pirlo in the game as a DLP and this would have made my argument impossible but as it stands they are overrun in the centre of the pitch and without seeing much of the ball I struggle to see what damage Elkjaer and Laudrup can actually do with the former being gradually sucked deeper and deeper in attempts to influence play leaving the most creative player in their starting XI stranded up top on his own.

I understand people are nostalgic and like the proven partnerships but perhaps we'd have been better getting Cole and Yorke in over Shevchenko and Stoichkov as it seems no one was really interested in the quality of our front two and what they brought to the match.

 

[harms]

Thats fair enough RE the stats however I can only work with what is in front of me so it's far from a case of me being disingenuous. Also it still doesn't detract from the point that a Lerby/Kante midfield struggles to match Xavi/Modric/Cambiasso in my opinion (and I've explained why).

They should have put Pirlo in the game as a DLP and this would have made my argument impossible but as it stands they are overrun in the centre of the pitch and without seeing much of the ball

I'll make a final point as it's actually a positive one to you — you certainly have an advantage in midfield. I don't think that it's possible to fully outplay midfielders as energetic as Lerby & Kanté, who both did an absolutely crazy amount of running per game, but your midfield would come as close as you probably can to doing it — and I also agree that Pirlo should've been there, personally I would've used a 4-3-3 with Pirlo taking Littbarski's spot in the starting line-up.

Thats fair enough RE the stats however I can only work with what is in front of me so it's far from a case of me being disingenuous.

I've added a post-scriptum to that post, but did it too late —
P.S. I'm not trying to make out you as a liar, I'm pointing out that you're using inaccurate sources. I don't believe that it was intentional and I'm not trying to put this point across.

 

[TheReligion]

I'll make a final point as it's actually a positive one to you — you certainly have an advantage in midfield. I don't think that it's possible to fully outplay midfielders as energetic as Lerby & Kanté, who both did an absolutely crazy amount of running per game, but your midfield would come as close as you probably can to doing it — and I also agree that Pirlo should've been there, personally I would've used a 4-3-3 with Pirlo taking Littbarski's spot in the starting line-up.


I've added a post-scriptum to that post, but did it too late —
P.S. I'm not trying to make out you as a liar, I'm pointing out that you're using inaccurate sources. I don't believe that it was intentional and I'm not trying to put this point across.

I prefer people coming to comment and discuss if I'm honest even if I can come across as prickly (I'm not, I'm just passionate and like to try and express my thoughts which isn't always easy in text).

I know I made a cheeky remark about you being their player/coach but at least you're giving your views and not voting without comment.

I hand on heart don't think we've got a fair shake here although the game was very very close.

 

[Jim Beam]

I don't know what to say really. Best to not say anything maybe in that case as I said pretty much everything during the match, but here it goes.

I know every person feels that he has an upper hand when it comes to their team and it is naturally to feel that way when you have such a brilliant team of individuals. However, I still think that we would won the match based on the ability to hold back and hit on the counter. Lerby - Kante midfield base is so energetic that it can pull enough turnovers for us to capitalise on it (Kante gave Modric some horrid times during their match ups). I still stand by the point that you had to use your fullbacks in attack massively and your best one is against Littbarski/Lahm flank again. We thought that Littbarski workrate is another cog to that midfield along with his dribbling ability which fits perfectly into the theme and gives you another massive trouble on the counter in which Laudrup and Elkjer thrived. There aren't many more energetic teams you could face in the draft, if any, and with that much potential on the break.

We all feel pretty subjective when it comes to our teams and I honestly feel we would win this one in real life or at least I see a clear way for us to do it. To don't even see it as a close and tight match is what surprises me. I learned my lesson to some degree in the draft. People don't pay so much attention when it comes to voting as you think they are. There isn't some conspiracy behind it and many of them hit that button based on the last post they saw, something they liked about the team (am certain there is a lot to like in ours) or based on something else at that particular moment. Maybe someone is eyeing Stoichkov or Shevchenko though.
In shortly, all that time that you planned or worked on your tactics (or write up) mostly means jack shit. So, I decided to use my energy around building teams and tactics that I like (God knows I spent enough time on ruining other people's matches ).

You were late with the write up, we didn't complain and started the match when you wanted with us couldn't comment it at the start, you were doubling up in the last hour or two of the match and tagged people for more votes in the end. You called people on being subjective and voting being rigged. You were complaining the whole draft about being treated differently and got the last round which benefited mostly you (ironically, if you were forced to play Breitner on RB you were more likely to win it).

Think we have been more then fair in the end and that objectively it was a close call for most people. I also think most people put our two teams among top ones once the draft finished for a reason.

So, there it is. Good game, have a good day both of you.

 

[TheReligion]

I don't know what to say really. Best to not say anything maybe in that case as I said pretty much everything during the match, but here it goes.

I know every person feels that he has an upper hand when it comes to their team and it is naturally to feel that way when you have such a brilliant team of individuals. However, I still think that we would won the match based on the ability to hold back and hit on the counter. Lerby - Kante midfield base is so energetic that it can pull enough turnovers for us to capitalise on it (Kante gave Modric some horrid times during their match ups). I still stand by the point that you had to use your fullbacks in attack massively and your best one is against Littbarski/Lahm flank again. We thought that Littbarski workrate is another cog to that midfield along with his dribbling ability which fits perfectly into the theme and gives you another massive trouble on the counter in which Laudrup and Elkjer thrived. There aren't many more energetic teams you could face in the draft, if any, and with that much potential on the break.

We all feel pretty subjective when it comes to our teams and I honestly feel we would win this one in real life or at least I see a clear way for us to do it. To don't even see it as a close and tight match is what surprises me. I learned my lesson to some degree in the draft. People don't pay so much attention when it comes to voting as you think they are. There isn't some conspiracy behind it and many of them hit that button based on the last post they saw, something they liked about the team (am certain there is a lot to like in ours) or based on something else at that particular moment. Maybe someone is eyeing Stoichkov or Shevchenko though.
In shortly, all that time that you planned or worked on your tactics (or write up) mostly means jack shit. So, I decided to use my energy around building teams and tactics that I like (God knows I spent enough time on ruining other people's matches ).

You were late with the write up, we didn't complain and started the match when you wanted with us couldn't comment it at the start, you were doubling up in the last hour or two of the match and tagged people for more votes in the end. You called people on being subjective and voting being rigged. You were complaining the whole draft about being treated differently and got the last round which benefited mostly you (ironically, if you were forced to play Breitner on RB you were more likely to win it).

Think we have been more then fair in the end and that objectively it was a close call for most people. I also think most people put our two teams among top ones once the draft finished for a reason.

So, there it is. Good game, have a good day both of you.

That's all fair enough. Your entitled to your opinions and I wouldn't expect anything less. I still stand by my point that Lerby and Kante aren't creative enough, nor do they have the ball playing ability, to turn defence into attack quickly. Your most creative player is Laudrup and he's stranded up field. Pirlo in the midfield gives you the option of nicking the ball back and utilising his DLP capabilities but not with those two. Their productivity from CM shows that.

I like that you've picked your theme and stuck to it though. Fair play and good luck with the rest of the draft.

The moaning stuff though.. you need to let that go. It's a game at the end of the day and you can give it as much as me. I might rock the boat but I speak my mind and perhaps go against the clique a bit. I appreciate people may vote against me because of that but remaining impartial and objective is important otherwise what's the point.

Enjoy.

 

[Jim Beam]

The moaning stuff though.. you need to let that go. It's a game at the end of the day and you can give it as much as me. I might rock the boat but I speak my mind and perhaps go against the clique a bit. I appreciate people may vote against me because of that but remaining impartial and objective is important otherwise what's the point.

Oh, I let it go, don't worry.

 

[TheReligion]

Oh, I let it go, don't worry.

No hard feelings. Good luck in the next round.

 

[Jim Beam]

No hard feelings. Good luck in the next round.

Cheers.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Interesting read on Rivellino.

I for one love the Rivellino role here. His dribbling in and around the box was insane with great close control, quite Messi-esque.

Always had a great final ball and good finish on him as well.

Its tough to picture it, but I can see it working quite well. The arrows don't do the role justice though. He will almost never start up top and drop deep. More often than not, will start in the hole and drive up.

Stoichkov and Sheva are really great choices for him.

I would drop Modric for Breitner here though and go a little more direct. Rivellino was as direct as it gets and loved to make plays from that side. Breitner bombing forward when Rivellino drops deep sounds more optimal than Modric.

All in all an intriguing system that would have won my vote irrespective of the opponents.

 

[harms]

Its tough to picture it, but I can see it working quite well. The arrows don't do the role justice though. He will almost never start up top and drop deep. More often than not, will start in the hole and drive up.

That sounds like a number 10 role for me, which he would obviously be quite natural in (and Sheva & Stoichkov would be a very complimentary front duo for him).

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That sounds like a number 10 role for me, which he would obviously be quite natural in (and Sheva & Stoichkov would be a very complimentary front duo for him).

Point being there were traits of a player much more than a No.10 although not like that of a typical 9.5.

More traits from a false 9 like Messi rather than a 9.5 like Baggio in and around the box..

With Xavi there, it is not exactly a great diamond in the making as well to put him as a plain No.10, which is what makes the advanced role for Rivellino quite inventive and novel in my eyes.

 

[Jim Beam]

Would read again. 9/10.