Quaranteam Draft R1: Pat/TR vs Jim/Joga

Who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .
I'm interested to see how people are viewing the midfield battle here.

Lerby and Kante, as mentioned, have great engines and can get up and down well enough but do they offer anywhere near the high level of technical ability, movement and ball retention of Xavi, Modric and Cambiasso? They'll see very little of the ball and when they do they don't posses the tools needed to progress possession effectively. Laudrup is going to be forced to come deep to try and win the ball back and make things happen and in doing so Elkjaer becomes isolated.

I'm playing this out in my mind and just don't see how they win this.
 
Did rensenbrink play often on the left of a 4-4-2? i've only really seen him play in the forward line, usually as mix of classic dutch wide-forward with some Cruyff roaming qualities, but without much defensive talent or interest. I think that's more questionable tactically for me than Rivelino as false 9, as i can easily envision him dropping back to be a tip of midfield while Stoichkov/Sheva play the mobile forward duo. Slightly harder for me to do that with Zebec/Rensenbrink, though the lesser amount of footage of Zebec plays into that tbf.
 
Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
Did rensenbrink play often on the left of a 4-4-2? i've only really seen him play in the forward line, usually as mix of classic dutch wide-forward with some Cruyff roaming qualities, but without much defensive talent or interest. I think that's more questionable tactically for me than Rivelino as false 9, as i can easily envision him dropping back to be a tip of midfield while Stoichkov/Sheva play the mobile forward duo. Slightly harder for me to do that with Zebec/Rensenbrink, though the lesser amount of footage of Zebec plays into that tbf.
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Yes, he was a left winger, wasn't without much defensive talent or interest (we can talk about Rivelino defensive interest though).

And no, Rivelino never played anything close to false 9 nor he has the mobility to pull it off.

TheReligion said:
I'm playing this out in my mind and just don't see how they win this.
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I literally made you a picture how we gonna score.
 
Seeing as he's getting brought up plenty and dividing opinion.

Rivelino



Diego Maradona's idol and inspiration.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I didn't realize they had Breitner! @TheReligion @Pat_Mustard you benched Breitner for Cambiasso?!?
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Breitner was a gift from Edgar towards the end of the draft. Utterly shite leaving someone of that calibre out but we felt it was better for the balance of the midfield to have someone like Cambiasso who will happily sit at the base of midfield and recycle possession. If we're getting pelters for Rivelino in a free role I dread to think how Breitner as a holding midfielder would go down!

Granted we strongly considered playing him at RB and it's not like Suurbier would have been a great loss judging by the comments :lol:. I had a look on footballia though and couldn't find any full matches of him playing there as a @harms alluded to, and probably wrongly decided it wasn't worth the risk without video evidence.
 
"HOW THIS TEAM WILL FUNCTION?

Extremely fast, direct, attacking football with flair, fluidity and lots of interchanging will be kept (and in which football that front two of Elkjaer and Laudrup thrived) and in that sense it is hard to add a better winger partnership then two mesmerizing dribblers in Rob Rensenbrink and Pierre Littbarski. While being fantastic and unstoppable 1 on 1 they are also capable of hurting you through the wings or cutting centrally either by scoring or passing which is the reason why they are so perfectly suited for Elkjaer and Laudrup upfront.
The attack led by Elkjaer, Laudrup, Rensenbrink and Littbarski is pretty much unstoppable, especially if given space and if the opposition is playing the high line.

The rest of the team is pretty self-explanatory with supreme engines of Søren Lerby and N'Golo Kanté in the middle. Lerby aside from being brilliant in defence was an excellent passer of the ball.

So as mentioned Laudrup is playing high up the pitch in a two with Elkjaer. This utterly exposes Lerby and Kante who can't get the ball off Xavi and Modric anyway, given their supreme technical ability, and are now out numbered by Cambiasso who was much more than a simple 6 and was capable of play making from deep and recycling possession effectively.

What is likely to happen is Laudrup drops deeper to influence the game, frustrated at seeing nothing of the ball, and leaves Elkjaer isolated against the positionally astute and organised Vasovic and Thiago Silva.

In the end, certainly among the best back 4 in the 1st round of draft. Technically supreme and fast fullbacks on each side in Branko Zebec and Philip Lahm to provide support in both phasis of the game and such a brilliant and complementary partnership of Laurent Blanc and Paul Mcgrath in the center. The wall at the back finishes with Gianluigi Buffon, one of the GOAT in that position"

At the other end of the pitch I'm yet to see how Blanc and McGrath handle the attacking unit of Stoichkov, Shevchenko and the menace that is Rivalino. Do they allow themselves to come to the ball and pit their skills against the best dribbler on the pitch leaving space in behind or do they back off and allow him to rattle in one of his trademark screamers? The movement of Stoichkov also has them guessing and causes chaos given his ability on the ball. Him and Shevchenko are the two best finishers on the pitch and there's a steady stream of chances for them here. Blanc couldn't cope with Sheva (7 goals in 8 games against him) and he will have a torrid time here.
 
Have a bit trouble with sleeping, so will answer you on the questions you asked (although, most of them are already answered imo)

Just give me a sec, honey...
 
I'm also interested how you manage Elkjaer and McGrath in the same squad.

Both pissed up the night before the game. Chasing the shadows of Xavi and co whilst hungover isn't ideal really.
 
Rivelino does look a bit odd as a false 9 however in a way it reminds me of the way LVG setup a diamond. He was concerned about it defensively so out of possession Mata moved forward from 10 into the CF position, Rooney went to the left wing and Di Maria to the right.

Now I suppose Mata didn't really play false 9 in that setup as such but I do think Rivelino could well play in a similar manner. And the do play like that it is a cohesive side with Suurbier being a good tactical fit. One player who is possibly unsuited is Vasovic as when I saw him play he liked to dribble out from the back a lot which is not what he can do here. Apart from that Silva and Vasovic are a good pairing.

On the Elkjaer discussion he was very dynamic at his peak but his goal record for Hellas Verona is not amazing.
 
Physiocrat said:
Rivelino does look a bit odd as a false 9 however in a way it reminds me of the way LVG setup a diamond. He was concerned about it defensively so out of possession Mata moved forward from 10 into the CF position, Rooney went to the left wing and Di Maria to the right.

Now I suppose Mata didn't really play false 9 in that setup as such but I do think Rivelino could well play in a similar manner. And the do play like that it is a cohesive side with Suurbier being a good tactical fit. One player who is possibly unsuited is Vasovic as when I saw him play he liked to dribble out from the back a lot which is not what he can do here. Apart from that Silva and Vasovic are a good pairing.

On the Elkjaer discussion he was very dynamic at his peak but his goal record for Hellas Verona is not amazing.
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Fair points I feel. By far the best and more prolific finishers are Shevchenko and Stoichkov. What's your thoughts on the midfield battle and my comments RE Laudrup?
 
Am actually answering also as I wanted to talk more about Denmark and both Laudrup/Elkjaer chemistry.

TheReligion said:
So as mentioned Laudrup is playing high up the pitch in a two with Elkjaer. This utterly exposes Lerby and Kante who can't get the ball off Xavi and Modric anyway, given their supreme technical ability, and are now out numbered by Cambiasso who was much more than a simple 6 and was capable of play making from deep and recycling possession effectively.

What is likely to happen is Laudrup drops deeper to influence the game, frustrated at seeing nothing of the ball, and leaves Elkjaer isolated against the positionally astute and organised Vasovic and Thiago Silva.
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Laudrup is definitely playing high up the pitch with Elkjaer. Both of them were very disciplined in the defensive phase and would close/track the opposition. On many occasions, however, it was Laudrup who stayed higher up the pitch. The explanation (by my understanding) was because Elkjaer was more aggressive of the two.
So, in this particular instance you will have Elkjaer more often on Cambiasso for example. This also allows Elkjaer, as soon as the ball is recovered, to run at your defence from deeper areas, play pass with Laudrup or one of the wingers who would open up and produce instant danger on the counter.

Laudrup, on the other hand, would drop deeper always on the occasions when the opposition was fully in the defensive shape and when he would try to find openings. In the attacking sense, best description would be that both of them had free roles and used their strength to their maximum while at the same time being so complimentary to each other.

In general, the things that surprised me were Laudrup's ability on the counter. His hold up and link up play (simple flicks and touches around the penalty area) were absolutely superb. He was deceptively fast and like he had another gear once he started running. He was immense as a passer and a dribbler, but we already knew that. What surprised me also was his goalscoring record. He scored a total of 37 goals for Denmark, but by the age of 21 and in his 27 appearances for Denmark, in a partnership with Elkjaer he scored almost half of that number.

Laudrup-GS-record.png

​
I dragged this one and am aware that most of this not of your interest @TheReligion, but I find both their partnership and Denmark as the team fascinating while I watched.

To answer your question, one of them will certainly be on Cambiasso because of your style of play, and more often as been said, it will be Elkjaer . As soon as the ball is won, it is a shot in a starting block for Laudrup, Elkjaer, Rensenbrink and Littbarski.

TheReligion said:
At the other end of the pitch I'm yet to see how Blanc and McGrath handle the attacking unit of Stoichkov, Shevchenko and the menace that is Rivalino. Do they allow themselves to come to the ball and pit their skills against the best dribbler on the pitch leaving space in behind or do they back off and allow him to rattle in one of his trademark screamers? The movement of Stoichkov also has them guessing and causes chaos given his ability on the ball. Him and Shevchenko are the two best finishers on the pitch and there's a steady stream of chances for them here. Blanc couldn't cope with Sheva (7 goals in 8 games against him) and he will have a torrid time here.
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This part is already well explained. It is not a mystery, compact and zonal aggressive defending was often used and in such defending every player is responsible for their zone and for the player in his zone. The fact that you are playing practically a diamond makes it easier, not harder imo as those fullbacks have a massive responsibility. The fact that both Lahm and Zebec are also comfortable tucking in if needed is also of very good use for us.


For the end and as a testament of that Denmark team I will leave this here. Shame that Dead drafters thread is dead, it would be the first match I would recommend to everyone.




https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/...e-soviet-union-and-pure-footballing-geometry/
 
Enigma_87 said:
@TheReligion love Rivellino to bits as pretty much everyone knows around here, but false 9 he is not. Can you elaborate a bit more on how he'd play and which zones he'd operate into?

I read the description but the false 9 position I associate with Messi/Cruyff type of F9 and you can be free-role creator from pretty much any attacking position on the pitch.
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Sorry I missed this in my other comments. Firstly I do think Rivelino is being targeted unfairly here especially given his immense talent and match winning potential.

It's seems the mention of "false 9" has got everyone panicking a bit when what Pat said was he was playing a free, creative, roaming role and a nominal false 9. He's not playing with his back to goal but has license to move ahead of Stoichkov and Shevchenko to run off them or collect and progress the ball from deeper areas using his unparalleled dribbling ability.

As per the arrows he is moving from left to right, probing forward with the ball, drawing players out and creating space for the likes of Stoichkov and Shevchenko to move into (Stoichkov in particular, as per his arrows, is moving forward into a two with Sheva and back out wide during different phases). All this whilst Xavi and Modric pull the strings from the midfield areas.
 
Enigma_87 said:
@TheReligion love Rivellino to bits as pretty much everyone knows around here, but false 9 he is not. Can you elaborate a bit more on how he'd play and which zones he'd operate into?

I read the description but the false 9 position I associate with Messi/Cruyff type of F9 and you can be free-role creator from pretty much any attacking position on the pitch.
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This reminds me of this thought-provoking post from @Gio from a while back:

Gio said:
Going off on a tangent, but I don't think there was much false about Messi as a #9. The first year or two he dropped into the hole to help service proper wide goal threats like Eto'o, Henry and then Villa. But really when he hit those massive numbers around 2011-13 or so, he was a #9 first and foremost. When he scored 73 goals in 2011/12, noboby else got more than 15. There was nothing false about his role there.
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Ultimately there's different ways to interpret that false 9 role from the heavier-scoring but still creative types, to more or less pure midfielders like Fabregas who played the role differently but successfully. Rivelino obviously leans towards the midfielder side.

Possibly we should just have chucked the team shape up as a diamond but we didn't want Xavi and Modric to be reduced to basic wide midfield shuttlers, and we wanted to make it clear that we want Rivelino functioning primarily in the final third here. As a classic playmaker he could and did drop further back but that element of his skill set is mostly redundant in this set up.

I still feel our far better capacity to keep hold of the ball, combined with an abundance of creativity and goal threat would win this for us.
 
Other thing that's troubling me here is that Rensenbrink (rightly) is getting flagged as a huge threat from the left wing in a 4-4-2 yet Stoichkov is playing closer to goal and seems a non-entity here :confused:



The guy was a monster!
 
Jim Beam said:
Am actually answering also as I wanted to talk more about Denmark and both Laudrup/Elkjaer chemistry.



Laudrup is definitely playing high up the pitch with Elkjaer. Both of them were very disciplined in the defensive phase and would close/track the opposition. On many occasions, however, it was Laudrup who stayed higher up the pitch. The explanation (by my understanding) was because Elkjaer was more aggressive of the two.
So, in this particular instance you will have Elkjaer more often on Cambiasso for example. This also allows Elkjaer, as soon as the ball is recovered, to run at your defence from deeper areas, play pass with Laudrup or one of the wingers who would open up and produce instant danger on the counter.

Laudrup, on the other hand, would drop deeper always on the occasions when the opposition was fully in the defensive shape and when he would try to find openings. In the attacking sense, best description would be that both of them had free roles and used their strength to their maximum while at the same time being so complimentary to each other.

In general, the things that surprised me were Laudrup's ability on the counter. His hold up and link up play (simple flicks and touches around the penalty area) were absolutely superb. He was deceptively fast and like he had another gear once he started running. He was immense as a passer and a dribbler, but we already knew that. What surprised me also was his goalscoring record. He scored a total of 37 goals for Denmark, but by the age of 21 and in his 27 appearances for Denmark, in a partnership with Elkjaer he scored almost half of that number.

Laudrup-GS-record.png

​
I dragged this one and am aware that most of this not of your interest @TheReligion, but I find both their partnership and Denmark as the team fascinating while I watched.

To answer your question, one of them will certainly be on Cambiasso because of your style of play, and more often as been said, it will be Elkjaer . As soon as the ball is won, it is a shot in a starting block for Laudrup, Elkjaer, Rensenbrink and Littbarski.



This part is already well explained. It is not a mystery, compact and zonal aggressive defending was often used and in such defending every player is responsible for their zone and for the player in his zone. The fact that you are playing practically a diamond makes it easier, not harder imo as those fullbacks have a massive responsibility. The fact that both Lahm and Zebec are also comfortable tucking in if needed is also of very good use for us.


For the end and as a testament of that Denmark team I will leave this here. Shame that Dead drafters thread is dead, it would be the first match I would recommend to everyone.




https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/...e-soviet-union-and-pure-footballing-geometry/
Click to expand...


Thanks Jim. So effectively Elkjaer is playing off Laudrup rather than Laudrup off Elkjaer?

That's quite interesting and I can understand your rationale although does Laudrup have the physical presence to hold off the aggressive front foot defending of Vasovic/Silva and does Elkjaer have the ability to find Laudrup with quality balls to feet if he's playing off him?

It still begs the question of isolation given our possession game and the difficulty I feel your team has in turning possession over and building attacks with Kante and Lerby alone. Elkjaer comes deep but what does he really offer here? Laudrup is the most creative player and he's high up the park.
 
TheReligion said:
That's quite interesting and I can understand your rationale although does Laudrup have the physical presence to hold off the aggressive front foot defending of Vasovic/Silva and does Elkjaer have the ability to find Laudrup with quality balls to feet if he's playing off him?
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Their goalscoring record and numerous assists to each other speak for itself.

Laudrup was also very responsible in the defensive phase, much more then I thought so.
 
Jim Beam said:
Their goalscoring record and numerous assists to each other speak for itself.

Laudrup was also very responsible in the defensive phase, much more then I thought so.
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It's undoubtedly a great partnership. I'm not going to say it isn't. My issue isn't with the pair and how they play together but how they operate with no creativity behind them and in a team that is going to see very little possession and territory.

Naturally Elkjaer will drop deeper and deeper to try and get the ball and I can't see how this helps with Laudrup stranded up field.

If you'd have played Pirlo then I'd be struggling here but Lerby and Kante just don't have what he had in terms of DLP capabilities. Pirlo should be on the pitch IMHO.
 
TheReligion said:
If you'd have played Pirlo then I'd be struggling here but Lerby and Kante just don't have what he had in terms of DLP capabilities. Pirlo should be on the pitch IMHO.
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Lerby was a great passer, both short and long passing. Rensenbrink and Littbarski also, so zero issues am afraid.

Am off, good luck with the voting campaign.
 
Jim Beam said:
Lerby was a great passer, both short and long passing. Rensenbrink and Littbarski also, so zero issues am afraid.

Am off, good luck with the voting campaign.
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A quick look at Lerby in CM shows he had 21 career goals and 16 assists. His more productive and favoured position was LM.

For comparison Kante has 21 goals and 23 assists and he's a defensive midfielder.

I just don't see it.
 
If the posters I mentioned earlier had of voted we'd have won and if we take out @Edgar Allan Pillow vote (seeing as he hates my mate Pat and is supposed to be the impartial moderator here!) It's a draw.

Some of you purists should hold your heads in shame. Absolutely no way that midfield does anything meaningful here from the central areas. They needed to play Pirlo.


Kante 21 goals 23 assists
Lerby 21 goals 16 assists

V

Cambiasso 65 goals, 45 assists
Xavi 109 goals, 213 assists
Modric 67 goals, 102 assists

I could do a comparison of the goal scoring records of Elkjaer and Laudrup v Shevchenko and Stoichkov but that would be even more embarrassing so I'll not bother.

Hard to know what any of you actually want to see here at times. Even one of the most graceful players to play the game in Rivelino was getting called out and considered ineffective :lol:

Anyway well done to @Jim Beam and @Joga Bonito

Good luck with the rest of the draft.
 
TheReligion said:
If the posters I mentioned earlier had of voted we'd have won and if we take out @Edgar Allan Pillow vote (seeing as he hates my mate Pat and is supposed to be the impartial moderator here!) It's a draw.

Some of you purists should hold your heads in shame. Absolutely no way that midfield does anything meaningful here from the central areas. They needed to play Pirlo.


Kante 21 goals 23 assists
Lerby 21 goals 16 assists

V

Cambiasso 65 goals, 45 assists
Xavi 109 goals, 213 assists
Modric 67 goals, 102 assists

I could do a comparison of the goal scoring records of Elkjaer and Laudrup v Shevchenko and Stoichkov but that would be even more embarrassing so I'll not bother.

Hard to know what any of you actually want to see here at times. Even one of the most graceful players to play the game in Rivelino was getting called out and considered ineffective :lol:

Anyway well done to @Jim Beam and @Joga Bonito

Good luck with the rest of the draft.
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Where are the Lerby stats coming from? There's a very good chance they are incomplete for things like assists or not accurate for position. most sites aren't reliable for older players outside of one or two leagues.

I didn't vote because i don't like to possibly sway games when i'm too lazy to contribute much reasoning other than the odd comment that takes my interest.
 
Jim Beam said:
For the end and as a testament of that Denmark team I will leave this here. Shame that Dead drafters thread is dead, it would be the first match I would recommend to everyone.




https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/...e-soviet-union-and-pure-footballing-geometry/
Click to expand...


:drool:

It's quite a shame how Lerby's ball playing ability tends to go under the radar at times. It's pretty easy to see (even if one just watches 5 minutes of the video above) how integral he was to the Danish Dynamites machinery and imo, he was their metronome who kept things ticking and moving. Regardless, with Rensenbrink who was pretty much Cruyff-lite as a roaming goalscoring playmaker, Laudrup as the explosive and incisive playmaker, Littbarski with his dribbling and creativity, in addition to two ball playing FBs, there did seem to be more than enough creativity and dynamism to pay homage to that Danish Dynamite vintage.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Other thing that's troubling me here is that Rensenbrink (rightly) is getting flagged as a huge threat from the left wing in a 4-4-2 yet Stoichkov is playing closer to goal and seems a non-entity here :confused:
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It's mostly because your partner wrote him off as not good enough and it rightly backfired on him.
 
TheReligion said:
A quick look at Lerby in CM shows he had 21 career goals and 16 assists. His more productive and favoured position was LM.
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Seems legit. These are his statistics from the 1979/80 season alone:

gamesgoalsyellow cardsassistsminutes
Søren LerbyA45235114050

I'm going to stop posting in this thread, your argumentation provokes me to post less and less impartially even though I actually like your team a lot :lol:

TheReligion said:
Hard to know what any of you actually want to see here at times. Even one of the most graceful players to play the game in Rivelino was getting called out and considered ineffective :lol:
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No one questions Rivellino's talent.
 
I was genuinely on the fence here. I defended Rivelino because his role was being unfairly attacked but Jim's side did look very clean and explosive.
 
harms said:
Seems legit. These are his statistics from the 1979/80 season alone:

gamesgoalsyellow cardsassistsminutes
Søren LerbyA45235114050

I'm going to stop posting in this thread, your argumentation provokes me to post less and less impartially even though I actually like your team a lot :lol:


No one questions Rivellino's talent.
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He's being played as a CM.

His preferred position was LM.

The stats I posted were his career stats for playing in CM as that's where they are playing him. I did make that clear.

Ultimately Kante and Lerby in the middle of the park don't have the tools to lay a glove on Xavi, Modric and Cambiasso, nor are they capable of any creative work.
 
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