Expected Vingegaard to be the strongest but not by this margin. Doesn't look like much of a contest unless Pogacar had a particular, fixable issue today.
Was Vingegaard boring today too?
Was Vingegaard boring today too?
Pro Cycling 2023
- Thread starter Suedesi
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Pogacar is cooked based on what we saw today. I think the injury took a lot of preparation out of him, therefore Jonas is a big favourite. Hope Tadej can still finish on the podium though.
Looking good for Vingegaard but luckily Hindley gained a lot of time today to keep it somewhat interesting or the GC would have already done & dusted just 5 races in. Sure Vingegaard should make up the time over Hindley, but Hindley won the Giro last year and the Bora team are one of the strongest. Can’t see a way back for Pogacar though. We’ll probably know exactly how the GC will work out after Sunday’s race, the climb up Puy de Dome is brutal!
Hindley is a non-factor, he’s not in the same stratosphere as Vingegaard (and Pogacar). If anything he helped TJV today since they still don’t have to bear any responsibilities right now.
Hindley is not your run in the mill cyclist. He was a candidate for the podium from the start. To even manage to stay away today shows he’s a bit special. Not saying Vingegaard won’t win, but you don’t want to give Hindley a too bigger lead. And Bora are a strong and tactically clever outfit. I suspect they won’t feel as obliged to defend the yellow jersey as UAE did today.
They gave Hindley a 4+ minute lead at one point and Vingegaard still almost caught him. He's a former Giro winner, so clearly deserves respect, but Vingegaard and Pog (when at his best) are just on another level. He's obviously not going to get a free pass anymore from here on out. I expect Vingegaard to put several minutes into him on the really long climbs.
My god, this thread becomes such a mess when the casuals pop in during the Tour.
Yes, your lord and saviour Vingegaard is the most attacking and entertaining rider in the peloton, hope you're happy now
Wouldn't be surprised at all if he puts everything to bed today, looking at how good he was yesterday. With the Aspin, Tourmalet and a finish on top of a mountain, in a stage only 145k long, it's gonna be absolute mayhem. If TJV is smart they'll push tempo from the start, isolate Pogi and let Vingegaard do his thing on the last mountain.
Tour could (should) be in a decisive state after today.
Tour could (should) be in a decisive state after today.
Tbf you brought this a bit on yourself, Vingegaard really isn't a defensive rider. He attacked in every stage race this season, went on multiple long range attacks in Basque country and attacked multiple times in both previous Tours.My god, this thread becomes such a mess when the casuals pop in during the Tour.
Yes, your lord and saviour Vingegaard is the most attacking and entertaining rider in the peloton, hope you're happy now
He's a boring guy and Pogacar is the better alrounder but on peak form he's just by far the best climber.
I kinda expected a gap like that at the top yesterday but I was a bit surprised that he put another 30s into Pog and the rest on the descent/flat.
If Kuss is on good form, Jumbo really should go for it today again, kill everyone off while they're on their knees.
You've made the least nuanced and most biased posts in the thread yourself.My god, this thread becomes such a mess when the casuals pop in during the Tour.
Yes, your lord and saviour Vingegaard is the most attacking and entertaining rider in the peloton, hope you're happy now
I should re-watch some of last year's Tour then but in my memory he didn't do much if anything at all after Pogacar's offday. At least nothing memorable then.
And I disagree that he's by far a better climber. I think we haven't seen them both at their peak yet in the Tour because Pogacar simply doesn't focus on the Tour alone. He won the Tour with ease in 2021 then focused heavily on the spring classics in 2022, I don't think he expected that kind of improvements from Vingegaard at all. Vingegaard capitulized on Pogacar's offdays and was indeed the better climber but I wouldn't say "by far".
This year Pogacar already admitted the injury caused trouble and that he expects to be better in the third week.
Just off the top of my head, he also destroyed Pogacar on Hautacam (after WvA paced hard), he attacked on Planche des Belles Filles and nearly got it, and he soundly beat Pogacar in the last TT as well.
My god, this thread becomes such a mess when the casuals pop in during the Tour.
Yes, your lord and saviour Vingegaard is the most attacking and entertaining rider in the peloton, hope you're happy now
Come on, now. The super defensive rider attacked at stage five (early), on a stage profile that often ends with any gaps gained over the top neutralized (pretty risky). It's also a climb that typically suits Pogacar. It made you look a bit silly, because you've been going on so strong, so I made fun a bit.
The casual stuff makes you look more defensive than my "lord and saviour" will ever be, and I don't get why. You're also wrong, but that's not super relevant. I rooted for Vingegaard last Tour, because Pogacar is so strong and I enjoy it more when the underdogs win, but now he's a Tour winner and one of two favorites so I don't really care who of them wins. I would prefer if it was someone else, but outside of accidents that's not very likely.
Vingegaard distanced Pogacar by more than a minute on Hautacam (stage 18), at a time when he really didn't need to. Nobody is saying he's Pogacar levels of attacking but to paint him like a super defensive Froome type robot is clearly just plain wrong.
He attacked Pogacar at the end of PDBF, attacked on Galibier/Granon and attacked on Hautacam (through WVA). Otherwise there weren't that many stages where attacking would've made sense especially as he was in yellow for most of it.
If you compare Pogacars "peak" numbers, let's say Tdf 2020/21, he's still a step below Vingegaards peak numbers. This isn't throwing shade at Pogacar, Vingegaard is just the best climber since the 90s (which opens up a lot of other questions of all sorts, I know). People will bring up Pogacars wrist injury but his performance yesterday on Marie Blanque was as good as he ever was on a ~20 minutes climb.
Of the current field I see only Remco competing with Vingegaard in peak form - or a bananas parcours with cobbles/gravel where Pogacar takes multiple minutes on Vingegaard. But I mean cycling changes quickly so maybe Vingegaard does an Ullrich or some of the younger guys (Ayuso, Uijtdebroeks) suddenly turn up.
My word. It's about him being an attacking / entertaining rider.
- He didn't destroy Pogacar on the Hautacam, it was Van Aert who made him go overboard, Vingegaard just... followed Van Aert. You can see for yourself. If requesting your domestique to put on an extraordinary pace because you feel good equals attacking now, then we're way off.
- He also didn't attack on La Plance des Belles Filles, he tried to win the stage at 500m. That was an end sprint, not an attack. Again, we going to grant "attacking" points for a GC contender trying to win a stage in the last km?
- And you can't attack in a TT ffs.
Let's just agree to disagree. I also never said, what some of you are suddenly claiming, that he rides "super defensively" or never attacks at all. He just does the minimum what's required/necessary to gain enough time, and then stops taking risks. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong by him this Tour, but that's how he rides. And there's nothing "wrong" with that, even Armstrong simply destroyed his opponents in one or two stages and then controlled the race.
I get it, you are Danish, you're proud of him and you support him, all fair game. I just don't like him, and if you are not completely biased over there, it's very easy to see why. He's got next to no personality and can be labelled as quite a boring rider, especially if you compare him to his main opponent. Don't see anything controversial about that opinion.
Actually Froome is a very good comparison for him. Do your damage in one or two stages, don't take unnecessary risks in all the other stages.
You're biased beyond belief, mate. No point discussing this with you.
Says the Dane who only finds his way to this thread when the Tour is on, I wonder why that is? Because you're enjoying this as a neutral, are you?
Jonas' numbers yesterday were out of this stratosphere, he was 70secs faster up the climb where he dropped Poggy than Poggy/Roglic were in 2020, which was with a tailwind. 6.9w/kg for 21mins or whatever it was. Even Poggy was 45secs ish faster up that climb than he had been in 2020 and he still got his backside handed to him. If I remember rightly the "magic number" for Armstrong and Ferrara was 6.7w/kg, so interesting to see the level Jonas is at now!
Must be doing something right in Denmark, there is a triathlete from there, Magnus Ditlev, who just won the Challenge Roth Ironman distance triathlon, with a 180km bike leg of 3hrs 57mins, this is after the 3.8km swim, and before the marathon, that he ran in 2hrs 37mins. He recently did a 20min FTP test and hit 506watts, so his FTP is 497watts, which is probably Ganna level.
Must be doing something right in Denmark, there is a triathlete from there, Magnus Ditlev, who just won the Challenge Roth Ironman distance triathlon, with a 180km bike leg of 3hrs 57mins, this is after the 3.8km swim, and before the marathon, that he ran in 2hrs 37mins. He recently did a 20min FTP test and hit 506watts, so his FTP is 497watts, which is probably Ganna level.
Of course I'm not a neutral, just like you aren't. And give it a rest about "casuals dropping into the thread for the Tour", as if posting regularly means you necessarily know more about cycling than other posters.Says the Dane who only finds his way to this thread when the Tour is on, I wonder why that is? Because you're enjoying this as a neutral, are you?
Of course not, that much is true. In your case though, your "Vingegaard doesn't have the same engine on the flat as the guys riding in the front" on Sunday told me all I needed to know
Enjoy the rest of the Tour, I'm done arguing with you.
Likewise.Of course not, that much is true. In your case though, your "Vingegaard doesn't have the same engine on the flat as the guys riding in the front" on Sunday told me all I needed to know
Enjoy the rest of the Tour, I'm done arguing with you.
Bit of a strange Tour for van Aert so far. Yesterday's effort seemed wasted in hindsight and now he's setting the tempo on the climb in the breakaway again. It feels like he's potentially aiming for stage wins but if that fails, trying to stay ahead so he might be of service to Vingegaard. It didn't turn out that way yesterday, but maybe that's the general idea.
I thought it was about him doing something of note. Anyway, I am not going to argue each of the points again, except maybe to say that you can definitely take more or less risk on a TT like that, and Vingegaard did the former, when he didn't need to.
You are fully entitled to not like him, and I actually kind get it. He has very little personality, and I also personally think he is not very aesthetically pleasing on the bike - he lacks that style and swagger that Pogacar obviously has. Froome definitely also had that problem. I just think some of the other critique is a bit overboard. He maximizes his chances to win the biggest race of the year by selectively participating in races leading up to it, and by minimizing risks throughout the race - that's probably the only way he can win it. While participating in every spring classic and attacking left, right and center might be more entertaining, it would also be stupid.
I'm not proud of him, he's not my son, but I am obviously rooting for him. It's fun to have a real GC contender again after the Michael Rasmussen fiasco and a decade of foolishly hoping for Jakob Fuglsang to do something in the Tour
That's all fair, and I'll admit I'm probably too harsh on him on some points just because I don't like him.I thought it was about him doing something of note. Anyway, I am not going to argue each of the points again, except maybe to say that you can definitely take more or less risk on a TT like that, and Vingegaard did the former, when he didn't need to.
You are fully entitled to not like him, and I actually kind get it. He has very little personality, and I also personally think he is not very aesthetically pleasing on the bike - he lacks that style and swagger that Pogacar obviously has. Froome definitely also had that problem. I just think some of the other critique is a bit overboard. He maximizes his chances to win the biggest race of the year by selectively participating in races leading up to it, and by minimizing risks throughout the race - that's probably the only way he can win it. While participating in every spring classic and attacking left, right and center might be more entertaining, it would also be stupid.
I'm not proud of him, he's not my son, but I am obviously rooting for him. It's fun to have a real GC contender again after the Michael Rasmussen fiasco and a decade of foolishly hoping for Jakob Fuglsang to do something in the Tour
And hey Fuglsang won Liège and Lombardia a few years ago, those are huge ones as well
There's real Team Sky of the 2010's vibes over this TJV team. Pogacar completely alone, but TJV has three riders still. Such a big difference in their teams.
I will always remember Fuglsang fondly for his brilliant assist for Van Avermaet in the Olympic race of 2016.
Poga! Did not see this coming
Letsgooo Pogi!
Fecking hell, I’m eating my words of earlier today. Did not expect this at all, hopefully this trend continues and we’ll have a proper duel.
That was really surprising. Thought Pogacar still looked vulnerable during the stage, rarely stood up and looked to be hurting a little bit in his wrist, so did not expect that at all. Great comeback and a fascinating stage. What an intriguing Tour this is shaping up to be. Impossible to call a favourite now.
Haven't seen it yet but sounds like Pogi clawed back a lot of time.
Around 30 seconds including bonus.
Reminded me a little bit of the way Pogacar lost the Tour last year when he felt invincible and tried to respond to every attack when he should have just let Roglic drive. Today Vingegaard drove really hard, like he felt there was no way anyone would be stronger than him.
Hahahaha love to be proven wrong like that. Didn't think that would happen at all although Jumbo really played themselves.
Vingegaard clearly miscalculated something, they went barely quicker than the chasers with Hindley at the last climb, definitely sacrificed too much on Tourmalet.
Vingegaard clearly miscalculated something, they went barely quicker than the chasers with Hindley at the last climb, definitely sacrificed too much on Tourmalet.
Looks like Jonas’ superhuman effort yesterday came with a cost. Didn’t expect that at all. Seeing the state WVA was in after his lead out shows the level they were at, he came to a stop and struggled to get going again. Insane level of racing so far. Good to see Rodriguez displaying there’s some substance to the hype too.
Couldn't work out why folk would be writing the tour off so soon. Cracking stage today & shaping to be a great fight for the next couple of weeks.
Great for the Tour that Pogacar strikes back. Also just confirms that it’s him and Vingegaard - no one even comes close.
Pogi's so explosive - you could tell Jonas lost track for a second, and poof he was gone. Couldn't close the gap and 5 secs grew to 24 by the end. Jeez.
Overall, brutal tactics from TJV - send WVA up the road, have the team control the pace of the peloton and then just use Sep Kuss and WVA to ride super high tempo on the climbs. Glad Pogi was able to hang on for dear life - and then some!
Game on.
As an aside, by what do riders care so much about polka dot? Neilsson Powless is getting so giddy with it, but in the end either Pogacar or Vingegaard will get it (in the high mountains). The whole thing seems a tad pointless.