As I said, the whole world could see the cowardly Jumbo tactics, except the Dane.
Oh well
Oh well
Pro Cycling 2023
- Thread starter Suedesi
- Start date
Van Aert wasn't trying to close it down, he was the one to finish it. He could've easily closed the gap as well but then his chances at the stage win would've gone down to 0.
You're selling Vingegaard way short here. He ended a 40km flat TT in the Tour second after Van Aert last year. Kelderman couldn't close the gap because he was done for. Most other "fresh" riders in that breakaway group today would've done it, and Vingegaard easily so. He just refused to, or was told not to by management.
Exactly this. This could've been Vingegaard's "Laporte moment" for Van Aert had he done his part and WVA had won.
"The Dane" is also the only one who's bothered to explain why he thinks so. How do you think the tactics were cowardly?
I still think you're a bit too focused on Vingegaard, I would say this was a collective failure from the team to do something for him. But yes, Vingegaard doing a single turn at the front could've sufficed, who knows. The cynic in me thinks he might've been happy with Lafay staying up the road as it meant Pog in third instead of second, so fewer bonus seconds, but that might taking things too far.
Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me if van Aert asks his wife to give the call a little earlier than expected now.
A little bit too much focus on Vingegaard for me, I think it was simply down to the peloton underestimating Lafay and leaving the chase for him too late.
Still can’t believe that’s Cofidis’ first win at the TdF in 15 years.
Still can’t believe that’s Cofidis’ first win at the TdF in 15 years.
So you're criticizing him for not helping WVA, while also criticizing him for riding conservatively on the descent, thereby helping WVA?
Why would there be any need for Vingegaard to lead or chase attacks at the end? They had plenty of riders in the group and should have been able to close it out. There's no denying they rode poorly but it would have made no sense to put your GC rider up front in this situation.
You guys just hate on Vingegaard, because he has too much personality and charisma.
I'm criticizing him for only looking after himself - him riding conservatively on the descent was not to help WVA - it was to help himself (as he would have lost mano a mano vs Pogi).
Haha - here comes the Danish cavalry
You seem obsessed with Danes. Can’t be healthy.
To be fair, it sounds like his sporting director agrees with those of you saying he should have done more. I'll have to watch it again, to me it made little sense to let your GC guy close down when you had two engines out there.
Niermann talking out of his arse post-stage.
"We're here to win stages with Wout". No you're not, you're obviously there to win the Tour with Vingegaard. You literally say a minute after that "I make the call that Jonas has to stay behind Pogacar".
"Wout gets absolute freedom". To do everything on his own - how nobel of you to give a top-5 rider in the world "freedom"
I'd draw my conclusions from this one if I was WVA. One, two weeks in the Tour, then off home to prepare the Worlds in Glasgow. Jumbo's tactics are clear and he's there as a domestique who gets his opportunity -on his own- if all cards fall in the right place.
At least he looked disappointed / angry post-race as well; he's the kind of guy who would go on camera to defend the atrocious decision-making.
"We're here to win stages with Wout". No you're not, you're obviously there to win the Tour with Vingegaard. You literally say a minute after that "I make the call that Jonas has to stay behind Pogacar".
"Wout gets absolute freedom". To do everything on his own - how nobel of you to give a top-5 rider in the world "freedom"
I'd draw my conclusions from this one if I was WVA. One, two weeks in the Tour, then off home to prepare the Worlds in Glasgow. Jumbo's tactics are clear and he's there as a domestique who gets his opportunity -on his own- if all cards fall in the right place.
At least he looked disappointed / angry post-race as well; he's the kind of guy who would go on camera to defend the atrocious decision-making.
What is your suggestion? That tactic, winning the Tour while giving freedom within reason to WVA, worked pretty well for everyone last year, didn't it?Niermann talking out of his arse post-stage.
"We're here to win stages with Wout". No you're not, you're obviously there to win the Tour with Vingegaard. You literally say a minute after that "I make the call that Jonas has to stay behind Pogacar".
"Wout gets absolute freedom". To do everything on his own - how nobel of you to give a top-5 rider in the world "freedom"
I'd draw my conclusions from this one if I was WVA. One, two weeks in the Tour, then off home to prepare the Worlds in Glasgow. Jumbo's tactics are clear and he's there as a domestique who gets his opportunity -on his own- if all cards fall in the right place.
At least he looked disappointed / angry post-race as well; he's the kind of guy who would go on camera to defend the atrocious decision-making.
Adapt to situations for starters. Vingegaard shouldn't be pacing at all in ideal situations but you're not losing the Tour by taking 1, 2 or 3 turns in the last 2k of a (flat) stage. It's even exactly what he did for Laporte in the first stage of the Dauphine last month, without any further problems. Not saying Vingegaard is egocentric or anything, it's more of a collective Jumbo failure than that I'm blaming this on Vingegaard. iI he's told to stay back that's what he'll do but they were just shit-scared of Pogacar gaining another few seconds at the line. Now they lost a surefire stage win and got one of Vingegaard's most valuable helpers disappointed and/or even angry. Don't be telling everyone afterwards that you're trying to win stages with Van Aert as well because your actions today CLEARLY told everyone that the team has ony one priority and it's Vingegaard in yellow in Paris.
Wout knew what he was getting into.
Jumbo is here to try and win the Tour for Jonas.
Any chance of winning a stage is all on Wout.
Can't expect a GC title contender to pull for a teammate in the early stages?
We never saw Froome or Contador pulling for their sprinters?
Jumbo is here to try and win the Tour for Jonas.
Any chance of winning a stage is all on Wout.
Can't expect a GC title contender to pull for a teammate in the early stages?
We never saw Froome or Contador pulling for their sprinters?
How? I don't really get your thinking here. Vingegaard declined to go with Pogacar on the descent, partly because he knew he'd lose in a sprint but also to give WVA a chance. After that Jumbo-Visma set a high tempo to quell attacks. Apart from Vingegaard not taking part in leading or chasing, I think everything Jumbo-Visma did today suggested their goal today was for WVA to win (and Vingegaard to save himself and not lose time). Yes, they messed up at the end but WVA not winning today was down to execution, not tactics.
You guys have some ridiculous Belgian bias in here.
The one and only reason why Wout was even close to contest was because Vingegaard was babysitting Pogacar and the other GC guys yesterday and today at the end of the climbs. If Wout isn't in his team he pulls with Pogacar today and puts 30+ seconds into the other GC contenders. Take Vingegaard out of the equation and Pogacar sails off with the Yates brothers and Wout never comes back.
The spin that he should've pulled now in the flat as well is absolute pathetic, he's the fecking TdF winner, he ain't opening himself up to attacks only because Belgiums golden child wants to win the stage. Jonas got bigger fish to fry, if the Red Bull helmet donkey wants to win stages he maybe should get over the climbs in top position instead of having to rely on being able to get back on because all the attacks are stiffled for him.
The one and only reason why Wout was even close to contest was because Vingegaard was babysitting Pogacar and the other GC guys yesterday and today at the end of the climbs. If Wout isn't in his team he pulls with Pogacar today and puts 30+ seconds into the other GC contenders. Take Vingegaard out of the equation and Pogacar sails off with the Yates brothers and Wout never comes back.
The spin that he should've pulled now in the flat as well is absolute pathetic, he's the fecking TdF winner, he ain't opening himself up to attacks only because Belgiums golden child wants to win the stage. Jonas got bigger fish to fry, if the Red Bull helmet donkey wants to win stages he maybe should get over the climbs in top position instead of having to rely on being able to get back on because all the attacks are stiffled for him.
Hahahahahahahah
He is shit scared to go to the finish with Pogacar because he’d get his ass kicked. That’s why he didn’t cooperate, Van Aert wasn’t in his thoughts for one second at that point.
One minute of helping and he’s celebrating tonight. But no, racing scared. Shitting his pants for what Pogacar has got in store for him already.
Out of the loop on this one, but where the heck is Remco?
Nah - if Vingegaard doesn't ride defensively, he loses the sprint to Pogi who gets the stage and puts a few more seconds bonus on Jonas. Pogi flicked his elbow to Jonas and he flatly refused to take a pull. He wasn't thinking about helping WVA, he was thinking he couldn't handle Pogi on a 10 k flat sprint FFS.
Thanks! Sad
Scared of what exactly? Losing the sprint? Yeah, that'll likely happen but the bonus second difference is the same he's lost now anyway. Actually, in a small group his chances of losing more than 4 seconds are bigger than just with him and Pog arriving together (first gets 10, second gets 6). In a bigger group Pog might get second or even win while he ends empty handed.
You don't understand the bonus second logic, see above.
And I was the one @Suedesi accused of being biased ...
It was obviously an exaggeration. I know you’re Danish, but even a neutral couldn’t deny that Pogacar is everything you want in a rider and Vingegaard is the boring and dull one. I just don’t like those who only focus on the Tour.
And Jumbo definitely lost today because of tactics and poor execution when they eaaaasily could’ve (should’ve) won.
Jesus. What did van Aert ever do to you?
Not quite, in a sprint he loses 4 seconds and Pogi wears yellow. In a group sprint he might have lost nothing that was his (or his teams) calculation.
But t's not just that - and the end of the day he's a TDF winner, he should back himself more. Go for it man roll the dice. You might lose, or you might win - that's racing. That's what cycling fans want to see. Instead he just sits and it's so boring. Vingegaard is a dull cyclist, hate the fecker.
Without a fully switched on Wout I don’t think Jonas wins the tour.
I also think Jonas is a relatively nervous rider, look how he lost his mind last year with the bike swapping farce, I’m not sure Jumbo would trust him to lead out Wout in a tricky run in to the end of a stage.
On another note; MVDP looks terrible. He should have been all over these two stages.
I also think Jonas is a relatively nervous rider, look how he lost his mind last year with the bike swapping farce, I’m not sure Jumbo would trust him to lead out Wout in a tricky run in to the end of a stage.
On another note; MVDP looks terrible. He should have been all over these two stages.
Nothing. I just think he has some shit opinions (Zwarte Piet) and his role in Jumbo is overrated. He has one win this season (2 if you count the Laporte gift), meanwhile Roglic has 9 and Vingegaard 12. The only reason he is close here is because of his team. The reigning Tour de France champion shouldn't have to defend himself why he didn't do anything but focus on GC.
Very low chance that Pog only finishes 4th in a small reduced bunch sprint after a climb like this. The only one you'd take ahead of him is WVA while there are plenty that could beat Vingegaard. Like I said, his chances of losing the least are actually better finishing with Pog than in a group.
I wouldn't judge him on these stages, this sort of climbing isn't really his thing. Both today and yesterday, the only rider of a similar type to him in the top 20 was van Aert, who climbs freakishly well for his build. It's nothing for MVDP to worry about. Having said that, he won't give himself many chances if he doesn't fancy stages like this, as he'll be doing leadouts in sprint stages.
So you basically don't rate him at all. It's true, he's had a difficult season and clearly you're annoyed by the discussion surrounding Vingegaard, but you're not exactly showing yourself the better person by throwing insults around (Red Bull donkey) and completely dismissing his performances.
No, the only reason he was close was not because of his team, it's because he got over the top in a group with only climbers and GC contenders, as by far the heaviest rider in the top 20. Sure, not the first group, but still relatively close. He's routinely overachieving on stages like this, but hey, it's all his team right.
I usually rate your opinions on cycling but you are way off the mark today.
Comparing Van Aert's victory total when he's going up against Pogacar and VDP for monuments like Sanremo, Roubaix, the Ronde while Vingegaard and Roglic are stacking wins in nothing one-week races against a bunch of nobodies is laughable, first of all. If you think his role for Jumbo is overrated I suggest you re-watch some of the mountain stages in the Tour last season as well.
The only reason he was close today was not his team at all, he maintained himself perfectly in the group right behind Pogacar and Vingegaard. Yesterday he was the only guy in the top 36(!) who was above 66kg, and he did it at 78kg nonetheless. But yeah, he was only there because of his 'team'
Just a ridiculous statement no matter how you look at it.Vingegaard shouldn't have to apologize or defend himself at all after today, it was clearly a team tactic to keep him behind and not waste any energy. It's just a terrible strategy by Jumbo, and they shouldn't come out with bullshit like "we wanna win stages with Wout" or anything of the like because it's clearly not what their aim is. Put your money where your mouth is if that's the case, otherwise just shut the feck up or openly admit that Vingegaard is your only priority this Tour and WVA is on his own.
Pogacar is a clearly superior and more enjoyable rider anyway, I don't think there's a lot of people outside of Denmark who want to see Vingegaard win over him.
Nah, not at all. He even said on Thursday or Friday that he already suspected that both the Jaizkibel and Côte de Pike would be too difficult for him. He'll be fine (and a lot better than last year given that he should be fresh right now and peaking towards the Worlds right after the Tour as well). He wasn't expected to do well in this stages and no one of his caliber bar Van Aert did either so I wouldn't be worried in the slightest about him.
@Ainu @RobinLFC
He's an incredible rider, I'm not denying that. But being over the top of a climb in top 20 position doesn't equate to being in a position to win. Like I said already, take Vingegaard out of the equation and Pogacar is gone with the Yates brothers, no way Wout catches them. Put Vingegaard into another team and he's gone with Pogacar himself. The reason why it came all back together was Vingegaard and Jumbo foremost (even without Vingegaard he still had Keldermann and Benoot to pull).
I don't even disagree with the rest, Jumbos communication is trash, they indeed should only focus on GC and. I also prefer Pogacar to Jonas - although I'm confident the latter will drop him in the big mountains.
I think the entitlement of Wout and his fans is just way over the top. No team gives a second fiddle that much attention in a GT, they're already full in for him in the classic season, come Tour you either be out or full behind your GC guy. Someone like Van Baarle, a Paris Roubaix winner, doesn't go into the Tour demanding to go for stages. Ineos never expect their GC guys to suddenly work for Pidcock. Go with the swing and win sprints if the opportunity is there - fine. But don't act like you're entitled to specific stage sacrifices. Add to that the media/fan vibe that every time something goes slightly wrong someone else is quickly the scapegoat such as the narrative that Roglic should've pulled for Wout in the WCRR 2020 and it's maybe understandable why I'm not a fan.
He's an incredible rider, I'm not denying that. But being over the top of a climb in top 20 position doesn't equate to being in a position to win. Like I said already, take Vingegaard out of the equation and Pogacar is gone with the Yates brothers, no way Wout catches them. Put Vingegaard into another team and he's gone with Pogacar himself. The reason why it came all back together was Vingegaard and Jumbo foremost (even without Vingegaard he still had Keldermann and Benoot to pull).
I don't even disagree with the rest, Jumbos communication is trash, they indeed should only focus on GC and. I also prefer Pogacar to Jonas - although I'm confident the latter will drop him in the big mountains.
I think the entitlement of Wout and his fans is just way over the top. No team gives a second fiddle that much attention in a GT, they're already full in for him in the classic season, come Tour you either be out or full behind your GC guy. Someone like Van Baarle, a Paris Roubaix winner, doesn't go into the Tour demanding to go for stages. Ineos never expect their GC guys to suddenly work for Pidcock. Go with the swing and win sprints if the opportunity is there - fine. But don't act like you're entitled to specific stage sacrifices. Add to that the media/fan vibe that every time something goes slightly wrong someone else is quickly the scapegoat such as the narrative that Roglic should've pulled for Wout in the WCRR 2020 and it's maybe understandable why I'm not a fan.
A majority of Redditors must be Danes, because GC rider should work for his domistiques, and at the same time gift bonus seconds to his biggest rival is not the popular view there.
There's working and there's helping your team(mates) out for 2km. You don't lose the Tour by doing that, while you can create infinite goodwill. And as I already mentioned, I don't think he was particularly in the wrong by not doing it, but Jumbo definitely threw away a 100% certified stage win today and made their star "domestique" mad today. We'll see whether it pays off or not.
I mostly agree with this view. You're celebrating tonight with a better manager than Niermann.