Prime Hazard or Prime Salah?

Wolf1992 said:
And R9 aside from that night in Old Trafford didn't have another memorable match in CL, wether because he was overweight or underperforming for RM.
He gets outscored in CL by a large numbers or strikers such a Dzeko,Roy Maakay, Kluivert, etc......are they better R9? I don't think so.

Thing is people is biased cause Salah is now having better seasons than declining Hazard, so they have the fresh memory of Hazard struggling in Madrid and Salah scoring for fun at Liverpool.
I don't think peak Salah is that much superior to peak Hazard, people is making it looks as if the gap is massive, and peak Hazard was just a good player like Lacazette or Richardlison.

Peak Salah is better for me, but the gap isn't big by any means.
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I think you should have quoted posts that said "Salah is miles better than Hazard" or anyone who said Hazard wasn't a special player.

Also it's weird reading "People are biased" when we are talking about a Liverpool player. So you are saying ManUtd fans are biased in favor of Liverpool player instead of Chelsea player? Or maybe it's just that people rate players differently.

Anyways, I would pick peak Hazard over peak Salah. Hazard was exceptional player to watch and also after Henry, he was the player I was most scared to watch against our defense.
 
roonster09 said:
I think you should have quoted posts that said "Salah is miles better than Hazard" or anyone who said Hazard wasn't a special player.

Also it's weird reading "People are biased" when we are talking about a Liverpool player. So you are saying ManUtd fans are biased in favor of Liverpool player instead of Chelsea player? Or maybe it's just that people rate players differently.

Anyways, I would pick peak Hazard over peak Salah. Hazard was exceptional player to watch and also after Henry, he was the player I was most scared to watch against our defense.
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He was a great player and easy on the eye, but I don't remember him being that productive against us. Drogba used to frighten me more. Ditto shearer and Henry. Also aguero.
 
Pickle85 said:
He was a great player and easy on the eye, but I don't remember him being that productive against us. Drogba used to frighten me more. Ditto shearer and Henry. Also aguero.
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Drogba was handled well by our defenders, maybe it's because he played against superb defenders whereas Hazard played against poor ManUtd team.
 
Pickle85 said:
He was a great player and easy on the eye, but I don't remember him being that productive against us. Drogba used to frighten me more. Ditto shearer and Henry. Also aguero.
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Drogba was largely quiet against United.

Although that said he was up against Rio and Vidic. He would have probably done all sorts of stuff to the United defenses Hazard faced.
 
roonster09 said:
Drogba was handled well by our defenders, maybe it's because he played against superb defenders whereas Hazard played against poor ManUtd team.
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Dancfc said:
Drogba was largely quiet against United.

Although that said he was up against Rio and Vidic. He would have probably done all sorts of stuff to the United defenses Hazard faced.
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Fair enough, I may be misremembering! Maybe I'm remembering what he did to the rest of the league's defenders and extrapolating. Hazard was absolute class, no doubt about it. Properly elegant player to watch on song too. That said, Salah is up there with Henry and Ronnie, Shearer etc for me.
 
Wolf1992 said:
And R9 aside from that night in Old Trafford didn't have another memorable match in CL, wether because he was overweight or underperforming for RM.
He gets outscored in CL by a large numbers or strikers such a Dzeko,Roy Maakay, Kluivert, etc......are they better R9? I don't think so.
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R9 played in an era when only the league winner qualified for the CL and didn't play in many seasons unlike these days when 4 teams qualified
 
Still Hazard for me, but this Salah chap does like to rack up the goals.
 
This thread is going to read like a quaint curiosity as the season goes on.

Salah is entering a different level
 
I'll just leave this here (this was 2020, he's passed 100 now):

IP-most-man-of-match-awards-in-past-10-years.jpg



And he's of course unmatched in the PL. I'll say it again, it's great to have a goal outlet but I'll take the player who dominates matches more consistently (and is just plain great to watch).
 
Salah definitely. He has been delivering in big stake occasions. Hazard at his best didn't do as well as his reputation suppose to be in CL. Individually Hazard may be harder to mark, but he could over dribbling himself out of team plan. So even when his game stats can be good, it can be to the negative of the team, whereas Salah on his bad, game is more decisive with the few chances going his way. His team knows where Salah would be, and he can be trusted with the key moments.
 
UsualSuspect said:
I'll just leave this here (this was 2020, he's passed 100 now):

[PIC]

And he's of course unmatched in the PL. I'll say it again, it's great to have a goal outlet but I'll take the player who dominates matches more consistently (and is just plain great to watch).
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Who are these MOTM awards being played against, though? Are these games that significantly and positively contribute to the highest of major honours? Let's not mention the Europa League here.

I put Salah ahead, because he appears to be more consistent, more of a final third threat, he's more clutch in the biggest of games and he's the biggest reason why Liverpool won 97 points, 99 points towards a PL win, and a CL win/CL final.

As for aesthetics, I personally enjoy watching Salah finish a tight dribble with a goal more than watching Hazard. But I understand that's a more subjective thing.
 
Salah belongs to the category of your Ronaldos, Henrys, Lewandowskis, Bales etc.. Hazard is to be likened to De Bruyne, Silva, Bruno etc.

2 very different type of player who start in similar positions but play very different roles.

In terms of who's the better player, you have to take different metrics into account. Hazard is a slightly better dribbler, a better key pass provider and a better player when it comes to dropping to collect the ball deep and start attacks. Salah is by far the better finisher, better at making incisive runs and movements, has better work-rate, helps out in defense & he is also quite a bit faster.

Hazard can (could?) often take charge of games completely and destroy the opposition but he also has dry spells where he has minimal input. Salah will give you the end product and his average performance is also much higher than Hazard's over the course of a season. For an absolute one-off peak performance, Hazard is probably a better pick (not that Salah is a pauper in this regard, Hazard is probs a bit better) but Salah will give you a regular 8.0 performance week in week out.
 
It's always difficult to compare a winger to a wide forward tbh. I'd probably still go with Salah at this stage.
 
Gehrman said:
It's always difficult to compare a winger to a wide forward tbh. I'd probably still go with Salah at this stage.
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Yeah different players. But if I had to pick one, it would be Salah. His numbers are starting to look absolutely ridiculous now.
 
Blimey. We’ve moved into man of the match awards as a comparable stat :lol:
 
LoneStar said:
Yeah different players. But if I had to pick one, it would be Salah. His numbers are starting to look absolutely ridiculous now.
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Yeah, he's becoming more a Henry type player.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Blimey. We’ve moved into man of the match awards as a comparable stat :lol:
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Tbf it's no more ridicolous than using a metric that would put Kevin Phillips above Dennis Bergkamp and Lampard (as much as I love him) as the best midfielder of all time.
 
Dancfc said:
Tbf it's no more ridicolous than using a metric that would put Kevin Phillips above Dennis Bergkamp and Lampard (as much as I love him) as the best midfielder of all time.
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But Kevin is better, he is.
 
Hazard no doubt.

But i'll take Ronaldo and Messi over these two any time.
 
christinaa said:
Hazard no doubt.

But i'll take Ronaldo and Messi over these two any time.
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Not sure I would at this age. Messi maybe, but Ronaldo is way too limited at this point compared to Salah.
 
Xanther said:
Who are these MOTM awards being played against, though?
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Would you like a match by match breakdown???

In the decade leading up to that graphic, the majority of those awards were earned in the toughest league, and for the most successful English club. But tbh the discussion is not that deep that we need a breakdown of Salah's goals either.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Blimey. We’ve moved into man of the match awards as a comparable stat :lol:
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It's makes more sense than mentioning trophies to decide who is the better player.

Messi and Cristiano have the most MOTM awards in the last decade for a reason.

I still think peak Salah is better, but people is underestimating peak Hazard because he is declining now.
 
Wolf1992 said:
It's makes more sense than mentioning trophies to decide who is the better player.

Messi and Cristiano have the most MOTM awards in the last decade for a reason.

I still think peak Salah is better, but people is underestimating peak Hazard because he is declining now.
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Being the best player in a shit team helps though. There is also a context. Luiz Suarez is high, but he's shared the stage with Messi. You'd think going by this that there isn't much of difference between Luiz Suarez and Griezmann, but I think Suarez is twice the player. However Griezmann has been playing for Athletico mainly and Suarez for Barcelona mainly.
 
Gehrman said:
Being the best player in a shit team helps though. There is also a context. Luiz Suarez is high, but he's shared the stage with Messi. You'd think going by this that there isn't much of difference between Luiz Suarez and Griezmann, but I think Suarez is twice the player. However Griezmann has been playing for Athletico mainly and Suarez for Barcelona mainly.
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But then people try to argue Hazard was inconsistent so how did he have so many MOTM?
 
I'd take Salah, unsurprisingly, both on peak and longevity.

But all the people saying it isn't close are doing hazard at disservice. Between Ronaldo and Salah, he's been the best attacker in the league overall and only Suarez reached a significantly higher level in that time. He's certainly a premiership great. Probably the best left winger in premier league history.
 
B20 said:
I'd take Salah, unsurprisingly, both on peak and longevity.

But all the people saying it isn't close are doing hazard at disservice. Between Ronaldo and Salah, he's been the best attacker in the league overall and only Suarez reached a significantly higher level in that time. He's certainly a premiership great. Probably the best left winger in premier league history.
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*left footed* you mean?
 
Gehrman said:
Being the best player in a shit team helps though. There is also a context. Luiz Suarez is high, but he's shared the stage with Messi. You'd think going by this that there isn't much of difference between Luiz Suarez and Griezmann, but I think Suarez is twice the player. However Griezmann has been playing for Athletico mainly and Suarez for Barcelona mainly.
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And Salah isn't playing along anybody with the level of Messi, Cristiano,peak Suarez,peak Neymar, peak Griezmann, peak Zlatan,etc...so i suppose by 32(if he stays at Liverpool) he should have 60+ MOTM awards, and be more close to Hazard MOTM numbers.

But don't get fooled, he played for Roma and Fiorentina btw(teams that hardly had the best players in the world) and still didn't earn many MOTM there, he is clearly a late bloomer, which is why he is short in the MOTM list compared to others on that list, despiste playing for a long time with average players.

I like Salah, but let's not overrate him, comparing with him the likes of Henry and R9 who were already considered WC at the age of 20, while Salah was playing in the swiss league at that age.
I said this cause some guy above compared him to R9 and Henry.
 
Gehrman said:
Being the best player in a shit team helps though. There is also a context. Luiz Suarez is high, but he's shared the stage with Messi. You'd think going by this that there isn't much of difference between Luiz Suarez and Griezmann, but I think Suarez is twice the player. However Griezmann has been playing for Athletico mainly and Suarez for Barcelona mainly.
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I agree with your point about MOTMs, but in ‘15 Hazard led the team to the PL, and half the PFA team of the year were Chelsea players, it was a good side but he was still above everyone in the team, and in the league to be fair.

Still your point about MOTMs being flawed is true, though so are most of the metrics we use in these kinds of threads
 
Wolf1992 said:
And Salah isn't playing along anybody with the level of Messi, Cristiano,peak Suarez,peak Neymar, peak Griezmann, peak Zlatan,etc...so i suppose by 32(if he stays at Liverpool) he should have 60+ MOTM awards, and be more close to Hazard MOTM numbers.

But don't get fooled, he played for Roma and Fiorentina btw(teams that hardly had the best players in the world) and still didn't earn many MOTM there, he is clearly a late bloomer, which is why he is short in the MOTM list compared to others on that list, despiste playing for a long time with average players.

I like Salah, but let's not overrate him, comparing with him the likes of Henry and R9 who were already considered WC at the age of 20, while Salah was playing in the swiss league at that age.
I said this cause some guy above compared him to R9 and Henry.
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Henry was not world class at 20. Otherwise I agree with you. Agree that he's a late bloomer.
 
Cascarino said:
I agree with your point about MOTMs, but in ‘15 Hazard led the team to the PL, and half the PFA team of the year were Chelsea players, it was a good side but he was still above everyone in the team, and in the league to be fair.

Still your point about MOTMs being flawed is true, though so are most of the metrics we use in these kinds of threads
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The Chelsea domination of TOTY was largely down to the first half of the season when everything was clicking. Second half of the season only Hazard and Courtois maintained their level while the rest fell of a cliff.

Forget holding onto the league we'd have probably been dragged into the top four race without those two.
 
Dancfc said:
The Chelsea domination of TOTY was largely down to the first half of the season when everything was clicking. Second half of the season only Hazard and Courtois maintained their level while the rest fell of a cliff.

Forget holding onto the league we'd have probably been dragged into the top four race without those two.
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Yeah I remember the massive drop off, I actually disagree with you about the nature of it though. The football became a lot less expansive (and more Mourinho like) and I think Fabregas losing a bit of form was a reason for that, as he was incredible in the first half.

Results wise Chelsea just powered through, and I think a lot of the defensive players deserve credit for this. I don’t think you lost in the league in the new year did you?

No argument from me about the importance of Hazard that season though, it’s one of the best campaigns I’ve seen in the PL from a player.
 
Wolf1992 said:
It's makes more sense than mentioning trophies to decide who is the better player.

Messi and Cristiano have the most MOTM awards in the last decade for a reason.

I still think peak Salah is better, but people is underestimating peak Hazard because he is declining now.
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It’s really not. Ignoring the fact that it’s very subjective (Redcafe is a good example as we do a MOTM rating system — unless there’s a comprehensive performance by one player there’s often two/three players on around 20-30% of the vote). It’s a totally unreliable stat to try and track — which stat tracking companies even have records of these? For which leagues and which competitions?

Hazard was a very good player. This thread is a totally valid comparison to make. Bringing up really unreliable stats like “most MOTM’s” is just going too far.
 
DWelbz19 said:
It’s really not. Ignoring the fact that it’s very subjective (Redcafe is a good example as we do a MOTM rating system — unless there’s a comprehensive performance by one player there’s often two/three players on around 20-30% of the vote). It’s a totally unreliable stat to try and track — which stat tracking companies even have records of these? For which leagues and which competitions?

Hazard was a very good player. This thread is a totally valid comparison to make. Bringing up really unreliable stats like “most MOTM’s” is just going too far.
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It is subjective, but it not always hard to agree on who was the best player on the pitch.
 
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