Premier League Gameweek 20 (26th - 28th December 2017) - Boxing Day

abdo99 said:
You need a lot of luck but the reason I give Liverpool a chance is because they will come with the same approach that was giving Man City problems before Mane's red card in the last game. You can't say the same about United for example. We won't beat City with the cowardly tactics we showed a couple of weeks back.
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I agree. If Liverpool break the first press they have the attackers that can destabilise Manchester City's structure as they try to reorganise. I belive that team is specialised to defeat this City team.
 
To have 58 points at this stage in the season is ludicrous really, good thing for us and the rest of the chasing pack it can only go downhills from here next season.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
Better teams in the Premier League or geternally? I'm curious what team was better than Manchester City in the premier league?

This is also taking into account that the premier league was a counter attacking league almost exclusively for its first 12 years then became extremely negative after Rafa Benitez and Jose Mourinho landed on English soil.

Teams now are better defensively and better at being more compact both vertically and horizontally. There is less space for attackers to attack.
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Manchester United 2006-2009
Chelsea 2004-06
Chelsea 2009-10 (Ancelotti)
One can also argue Pellegrini's first season/Liverpool with Suarez were also pretty entertaining.

Again just my opinion. For you this may be the best PL side ever, not for me.
 
AshRK said:
Manchester United 2006-2009
Chelsea 2004-06
Chelsea 2009-10 (Ancelotti)
One can also argue Pellegrini's first season/Liverpool with Suarez were also pretty entertaining.

Again just my opinion. For you this may be the best PL side ever, not for me.
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I don't belive in best teams generally. They are certainly the most dominant and they have to deal with more compactness than any of those teams. The space between the lines in the premier league in those years was much bigger.
 
the_box said:
How to beat city's game in 5 easy steps and how they relate to today's game.

Step 1: Have your own contingent of world class players. Newcastle: The City starting XI cost 2x the purchase cost of Newcastle, so 0/1
Step 2: Have your players intelligent and quick enough to move into the space left when they bring a 2nd or 3rd man to press. Newcastle: Not enough movement, no one showing for ball. 0/2
Step 3: When you do win the ball back, EVERYONE needs to move as a spring in the other direction. Newcastle: Too static/rigid. 0/3
Step 4: Don't concede. Newcastle: Did. 0/4
Step 5: Score Newcastle: Didn't. 0/5
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Step 1 explains why they are superior to most teams in the league and would explain them leading a title race, it does not however, explain them being on the verge of the all time record of consecutive wins, winning the league by Christmas and playing on the front foot dominating territory and possession in every single game.

Step 2 and 3 are exactly why some coaches are valued more than others. Being able to do those things with efficiency is a very difficult task. In fact, the only one capable of doing it without sacrificing another is Guardiola. It is the reason he was the most sought after coach in the world and why the likes of Klopp, Pochettino and others are struggling to reach the balance required to make playing like that efficient.

Step 4 and 5 are surely a joke?
 
AshRK said:
Manchester United 2006-2009
Chelsea 2004-06
Chelsea 2009-10 (Ancelotti)
One can also argue Pellegrini's first season/Liverpool with Suarez were also pretty entertaining.

Again just my opinion. For you this may be the best PL side ever, not for me.
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Ancelloti's Chelsea belong nowhere near this. They only won because Rooney was injured in the run in and we were adjusting to life after Ronaldo which led to a poor start. This City team would thrash them
 
totaalvoetbal said:
I don't belive in best teams generally. They are certainly the most dominant and they have to deal with more compactness than any of those teams. The space between the lines in the premier league in those years was much bigger.
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United 2007-09 won the title three times, the CL once, making successive finals 08,09. City have to better that to better that team. Bottom line
 
totaalvoetbal said:
I don't belive in best teams generally. They are certainly the most dominant and they have to deal with more compactness than any of those teams. The space between the lines in the premier league in those years was much bigger.
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I will say one of the most efficient. Dominance cannot be achieved over one season. If they continue doing this for another year or so then hell yeah but giving them the most dominant side ever is very premature.
 
AshRK said:
Just pass/pass/pass and bore everyone is also a specialty which much be appreciated.
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pep's style is similar to floyd mayweather's. if you're not familiar with boxing, mayweather is an undefeated boxer (something like 52 wins and 0 losses). he has accomplished this by jabbing his opponent to death and running away from the slightest contact. then once the 10th or 11th round is up, he unleashes on his now tired opponent for the knockout.

pep's style is similar to that -- they pass, pass, pass, bore you to death until you are so tired mentally and physically from chasing the ball around that they score multiple goals on you in the 2H. IIRC they have the most goals scored in the 2H (especially in the final 20 minutes).

the pass, pass, pass system might seem nonsensical but there's a purpose behind it. just like floyd mayweather, pep's teams tire you out so they can knock you out later in the match.
 
Skills said:
Ancelloti's Chelsea belong nowhere near this. They only won because Rooney was injured in the run in and we were adjusting to life after Ronaldo which led to a poor start. This City team would thrash them
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Easier said than done. That Chelsea side scored 100+ goals and would not just sit back like most of the teams have done against City. Also, I enjoyed watching that Chelsea side more than this City side. Again just my opinion.
 
Wow, we have alot of genius armchair managers on here who have the answer to beating City to the PL! What a gold mine of blooming leadership talent we have on redcafe! The future is bright for United and English football in general when these Alex Furgussuns to be are ready to send their CVs to manutd@gmail.com!
 
City are breaking all-time records in England, not just PL records: most points after 20 games, best GD since 1889/90 (but Preston had drawn 3 games at that point), most consecutive wins, most consecutive wins away from home in one season, most possession/completed passes, etc. Like it or not, this is remarkable.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
United 2007-09 won the title three times, the CL once, making successive finals 08,09. City have to better that to better that team. Bottom line
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No united team in that cycle was as dominant. City are scoring more, having more of the ball, playing in the opposition half and creating more chances and winning more games. In terms of dominance no premier league team has ever approached this leve of dominance in every measurable metric.

The league was essentially a counter attacking league and the team with the best counter attacking players won.

The spaces on that era was so much larger on averge. The compactness players have to deal with today is mich higher which is why automatisms have to be used.

In terms of greatness I agree. This Manchester City team needs to win important trophies to even be put in the discussion. That Manchester United team for me are the greatest premier league side.
 
Theonas said:
Step 1 explains why they are superior to most teams in the league and would explain them leading a title race, it does not however, explain them being on the verge of the all time record of consecutive wins, winning the league by Christmas and playing on the front foot dominating territory and possession in every single game.

Step 2 and 3 are exactly why some coaches are valued more than others. Being able to do those things with efficiency is a very difficult task. In fact, the only one capable of doing it without sacrificing another is Guardiola. It is the reason he was the most sought after coach in the world and why the likes of Klopp, Pochettino and others are struggling to reach the balance required to make playing like that efficient.

Step 4 and 5 are surely a joke?
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It wasn't an entirely serious post besides 2 and 3 tbh.

I remember the Arsenal team of the late 90's/early 00's uncoiling like I mention. 10 men streaming forward once they had possession. It was terrifying tbh. Literally the entire team sprinting forward. It's probably the closest to what I mean but yeah, you need an incredible set of players to pull it off and obviously a great coach.
 
AshRK said:
Manchester United 2006-2009
Chelsea 2004-06
Chelsea 2009-10 (Ancelotti)
One can also argue Pellegrini's first season/Liverpool with Suarez were also pretty entertaining.

Again just my opinion. For you this may be the best PL side ever, not for me.
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You're trying too hard to discredit them.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
No united team in that cycle was as dominant. City are scoring more, having more of the ball, playing in the opposition half and creating more chances and winning more games. In terms of dominance no premier league team has ever approached this leve of dominance in every measurable metric.

The league was essentially a counter attacking league and the team with the best counter attacking players won.

The spaces on that era was so much larger on averge. The compactness players have to deal with today is mich higher which is why automatisms have to be used.

In terms of greatness I agree. This Manchester City team needs to win important trophies to even be put in the discussion. That Manchester United team for me are the greatest premier league side.
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That was also when the English League was the best in Europe. All of the top 4 we’re capable of winning the CL. In fact all the top 4 appeared in a CL final from 06-09
 
Guy Incognito said:
I think Liverpool at Anfield would present City as much problems as Everton under Big Sam.
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I can’t see Big Sam getting anything sadly unless they sign a decent striker. Liverpool and Chelsea should have buried them with the chances they had. City won’t be as wasteful.

Liverpool should cause them problems. It’s a ground they struggled at and haven’t won since 2002 when they were a tinpot club.
 
the_box said:
It wasn't an entirely serious post besides 2 and 3 tbh.

I remember the Arsenal team of the late 90's/early 00's uncoiling like I mention. 10 men streaming forward once they had possession. It was terrifying tbh. Literally the entire team sprinting forward. It's probably the closest to what I mean but yeah, you need an incredible set of players to pull it off and obviously a great coach.
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Yea I figured. It's not just about the players though. A lot of teams have great players. Barcelona, PSG and Real have a level of individual quality that I would call decisive in the sense that on its own, would make a difference. But after that, the level between the top 6 in England, Bayern, Atlético, Juventus, is much closer than is being made out. The difference is made up of the coaching, how long the players have been together, the clarity and precision of profile with which they have been assembled and other factors like confidence and momentum. The thing is at the moment at least City score higher than anyone else in those aspects.
 
Theafonis said:
Barca were eventually countered, probably one of the best teams in history if not the best.
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By whom? Barca lost one league title because they lacked hunger and motivation and went up against an almost equally incredible team, then bounced back to win it with 100 points. In CL, they were countered by -a volcano and an injury to iniesta, abysmal finishing, and their manager suffering from cancer and Messi getting injured

Tactics are meaningless in and of themselves, it's the players that really matter. Newcastle would still be fighting to avoid relegation if Guardiola was their manager
 
AshRK said:
You're trying too hard to interpret my post. Never discredited them. But if you want me to admit that this city side is the best since bread and butter then I can't.
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There's no way you can honestly believe all those sides were better or more entertaining than this side. You've gone over the top with some of them especially the Chelsea sides. Also pretty strange that you don't have the invincible's there.
 
RooneyLegend said:
There's no way you can honestly believe all those sides were better or more entertaining than this side. You've gone over the top with some of them especially the Chelsea sides. Also pretty strange that you don't have the invincible's there.
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Cheslea 2004 to 06 were better than this city side. Again my opinion, not saying you have to agree with me. If this city side continues to do this for another season then they are there with the very best.
 
"We did absolutely everything but it is difficult to play when the other team doesn't want to play," said Guardiola.
 
'The question has to be asked: are City unbearable?'
 
AshRK said:
Manchester United 2006-2009
Chelsea 2004-06
Chelsea 2009-10 (Ancelotti)
One can also argue Pellegrini's first season/Liverpool with Suarez were also pretty entertaining.

Again just my opinion. For you this may be the best PL side ever, not for me.
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Pointless arguments all round.
How would anyone ever prove that their nominated team is better than another from a different era? They will never play each other and comparing numbers of honours proves longevity but not brilliance on any given day.
Arguably the talent pool from which top English teams draw is deeper these days as we have the money to scoop up almost all of the world's top talent in respect of players, coaches and even administrators so it would follow that this league would take more winning. Training methods, diet and fitness are also ever improving.
The older teams mentioned would maybe have the advantage of greater continuity and possibly more diehard loyalty to the team as players and top Managers moved around a bit less and greater bonds were forged to a particular club.
 
AshRK said:
I will say one of the most efficient. Dominance cannot be achieved over one season. If they continue doing this for another year or so then hell yeah but giving them the most dominant side ever is very premature.
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You can talk about dominance in terms of one season, 3 seasons or a decade. Over one .. surely there has been none that can touch this City side so far this season. Their only defeat (CL) has been with their reserve side, and even that was close.
 
Ban said:
"We did absolutely everything but it is difficult to play when the other team doesn't want to play," said Guardiola.
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It's an obnoxious complaint to hear from pep, sky and some (not all) city fans given the embarrassment of riches they have.

Would I have rather lost 0-8 but "at least we had a go"? Would I feck. We're struggling and GD may actually matter at the end. How devastating from a player morale perspective would a drubbing like that have been?

Keeping it tight against a squad worth twice what our club is (!!) and trying to nick something is correct. It's not pretty but it's correct.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
Pointless arguments all round.
How would anyone ever prove that their nominated team is better than another from a different era? They will never play each other and comparing numbers of honours proves longevity but not brilliance on any given day.
Arguably the talent pool from which top English teams draw is deeper these days as we have the money to scoop up almost all of the world's top talent in respect of players, coaches and even administrators so it would follow that this league would take more winning. Training methods, diet and fitness are also ever improving.
The older teams mentioned would maybe have the advantage of greater continuity and possibly more diehard loyalty to the team as players and top Managers moved around a bit less and greater bonds were forged to a particular club.
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You may not be able to prove but you can always count on your own eyes of what you have seen. Which is why I said it is my personal opinion and no one need to agree with me.
 
Rafateria said:
You can talk about dominance in terms of one season, 3 seasons or a decade. Over one .. surely there has been none that can touch this City side so far this season. Their only defeat (CL) has been with their reserve side, and even that was close.
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Dominance is always judge the best over a period of time. Like I said if this city side does this for another season and win a CL they will be for sure remembered as a dominant side. As many say defending the title is more tough than winning it. Only two managers in PL have done that , sir Alex and Jose.
 
AshRK said:
You may not be able to prove but you can always count on your own eyes of what you have seen. Which is why I said it is my personal opinion and no one need to agree with me.
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Well you're right, of course, but most folks sugar coat the performances and strengths of their favourites and will highlight any weaknesses of a team who they despise.
It's only natural.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
Well you're right, of course, but most folks sugar coat the performances and strengths of their favourites and will highlight any weaknesses of a team who they despise.
It's only natural.
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In this case it's not even the case of despising pep or city. They are doing a fabulous job and just because I support united I cannot deny that. Just that I cannot call them the best ever in the PL , just for the reason they need to do this on a consistent basis. If they go on to remain unbeaten in the league then surely this side is better than the arsenal invincible who I always found overrated which is why I didn't put in my list. Trust me there was nothing to favour about a chelsea side from 2004 to 06. I despised them more than this city side but I still remember they were one tough nut to crack especially because of Jose. We may never the see the same Jose but that was one crazy side. Call me biased but for me the United side from 2006 to 09 will always be the best. To win 3 Pl titles on the trot is not a mean feat but that side could do that.

Again all these are my personal opinion. If you feel this city side is the best (and being a city supporter you have a right to feel that way) then fair enough.
 
AshRK said:
In this case it's not even the case of despising pep or city. They are doing a fabulous job and just because I support united I cannot deny that. Just that I cannot call them the best ever in the PL , just for the reason they need to do this on a consistent basis. If they go on to remain unbeaten in the league then surely this side is better than the arsenal invincible who I always found overrated which is why I didn't put in my list. Trust me there was nothing to favour about a chelsea side from 2004 to 06. I despised them more than this city side but I still remember they were one tough nut to crack especially because of Jose. We may never the see the same Jose but that was one crazy side. Call me biased but for me the United side from 2006 to 09 will always be the best. To win 3 Pl titles on the trot is not a mean feat but that side could do that.

Again all these are my personal opinion. If you feel this city side is the best (and being a city supporter you have a right to feel that way) then fair enough.
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That's the thing. I don't have an opinion because it would be pure guesswork on my part.
We can all speculate for a bit of fun but that's all it is.
 
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