The evidence is easily found in the relevant thread regarding your lying which proves how disengenious you're.
Not everyone is like you.
Potential Matic Replacements
- Thread starter FootyGirl88
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Not everyone is like you.
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Of course they do. Playing CB he should have much higher passing stats.
Man marking won’t affect his passing stats.
The argument was never is it good enough. You were the one claiming it was as good as if not better than Fabinho. You were wrong. Rather than admit it you are digging yourself in the deepest hole I’ve seen since James Cameron explored the Mariana Trench.
This!Yes. CBs usually play even more progressive passes with even higher completion rate (due to being deeper in the pitch). So if he has played several games as CB and sweeper that should improve his «spreadsheet numbers».
Playing in a 3 man backline advancing play from deep doesn't mean he's gonna knock it long. I've watched both players and there's nothing in it. You're trying so hard to prove your point over a spreadsheet it's funny but at least you're honest in your opinions which is good.
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I have nothing to prove anymore someone else has supported it and added to it so I’m pretty much 100% convinced now.
Not talking about long ball passes but if a player can play long passes it helps.
Maybe you’re just a poor judge of a player if you’ve not noticed the difference?
We all get stuff wrong from time to time. I think you’ll find people respect you a lot more when you just say “fair enough I thought this was the case but I see now it might be different” or something close to that.
There's so much variables that need to be considered before making a judgment in football. The first thing is watching football and if watching a game isn't the basis of a opinion and stats are peddled instead then that becomes a flawed argument. I've given my opinion and there's German journos who also have given theirs and all believe he's a good passer and has no weakness in his game.
I respect your opinion but the day I form my opinions over a spreadsheet would be the day I stop watching football.
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The thing is the opinion hasn’t been formed by stats on my part it’s been informed by watching the games.
Ive said numerous times Zakaria is best at progressive dribbles but his passing isn’t the best on the market and it’s definitely not as good as Fabinho.
Then you can check your observations and evidence them with stats.
There are so many good metrics nowadays that every top club uses stats to judge players and then does the eye test.
Nobody would say it’s a weakness he’s not a bad passer he’s just not as good as other options. Which is the argument that has been proven to you.
This would be very avoidable had you just said I know he’s statistically not the best passer so I can’t say he’s better than Fabinho but he doesn’t need to be in order to do well at United. Because I’d agree with you he can do well.
But there have been times today you’ve been talking out your backside and then occasionally glimmers of good posting. The good posting comes from having a bit more nuance and qualifying your posts not making statements you can’t support and prove.
I have nothing personal against you but I do think you should stop and consider an argument before dismissing it because like it or not stats form a massive part in football now.
I don't mind having a argument with you and we can agree or disagree and that's fine, but for me I felt you were completely wrong about the quality of the German Buli especially for players who play defensively in high pressing teams and also the league in general which I know personally raises eye brows among many regular observers of the league. So comments like yours I felt caused things to deteriorate because I do rate the league and found your comments disrespectful. But I can move on from that.
Statistics can be very misleading though and they don't tell the full picture so using that as a argument I believe is flawed when a game or games you've personally watched can be used as evidence which would be more beneficial imo.
Clubs do use data etc to collate information but they also have scouts watching which for me is a better way to judge player projection/potential etc. After the information is gathered by the scouts then i'm sure there's many other avenues they touch on before deciding on a final short list. I've even heard the PC game Football Manager used .
But looking back at our discussion I feel I veered off my original point which was that you don't need a expansive passer to play at DM. And i'll leave it that for tonight.
Get a room you two! 
That's what worries me about how we are currently moving, it's obvious RW is the priority and I get that, but it seems that the next thing is Ole and the staff want another versatile attacking player as they obviously realize that Lingard/Pereira/Mata aren't good enough to cover for Bruno or Pogba, which was clear the other night, the depth isn't there, but it's like we are putting the roof on without getting the foundations sorted, the midfield has numbers but it's not balanced, we only have one proper holding midfielder and he's aging and lacking in mobility and stamina.
People will tell you Mctominay can play the holding role. They are choosing an AM over DM because if Matic injures we can play Mctominay in his role but if Bruno injures we would have to play average players like Lingard Pereira and Mata. So they say we need an AM over a DM.
Also to be fair, we are being strongly linked with AMs and hardly any DMs and based on this season where we've played 4-2-3-1, it seems like Ole sees the Matic Pogba and Bruno midfield trio as the starters. With Mctominay as second choice to Matic. Fred as second choice to Pogba. And Lingard/Pereira as second choice to Bruno.
If that's how he sees it, then we definitely would be looking at getting an AM instead because I think he's had enough of Lingard and Pereira being second choice to Bruno more than he's had enough of Mctominay being second choice to Matic or Fred being second choice to Pogba
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This is my guy as well. Great passing ability, good engine, could make runs into the box, and he's not afraid to get stuck in.
The way I see it, United biggest problem right now is scoring enough goals against the bottom half teams. Getting a DM isn't gonna change that. But a creative player who can play deeper and behind a striker could produce wonders for the side.
I agree.
It'll be interesting to see what Ole plans because I think creating the defensive balance will be key to us being a more proactive team going forward. Having the correct DM will be key to eventually transitioning from a team that prioritizes defensive balance to a team that prioritizes offensive gain, whereby we go on the pitch to stamp our authority on the game and not look to counter in a deep block.
If the correct DM is bought I believe it would actually help our attack more than signing a attacker like Grealish in a 'either or' situation. It would allow us to play a more expansive game, bring better defensive balance and provide the foundation for the team to play a high risk game which I believe Ole is transitioning towards.
Signing a back up AM over a DM would still see us prioritize defensive stability. And for that reason it would be more beneficial for us to buy a DM with the requisite attributes and that IMO would allow us to take more risks. Even with just one attacking Player in midfield we'll be more dangerous because it will allow us to press high as a unit, win the ball quickly and cause fast transitions which will cause overloads.
Unless people think McTominay can be developed to be the DM and provide defensive balance I think signing a DM is more important for the collective compared to a back up AM.
People that want AM over DM are just worried that if we get a DM instead and Bruno gets injured we would go back to Lingard/Pereira and struggle to break down teams again. I don't really see this. If we get a DM, say Zakaria and Bruno injures we don't need to go back to Lingard or Periera. We can switch to a 4-3-3 and play Pogba Fred and Matic/Zakaria. I think this midfield plus our remaining 11 can break down teams that sit deep while being balanced defensively. Even better if we add Sancho.
Meanwhile if we get an AM instead of DM and then Matic gets injured I think we would be fragile and imbalanced defensively because Mctominay can't play the DM role as required. If Ole thinks he can then fine get an AM but I haven't been convinced from what I've seen when Mctominay played that role. Though that could be because of a few things
I think we should build the foundation of the house before we start on the roof personally.
And I believe our attack would be even better with a DM with the correct attributes which will allow us to play with high risk and a higher line.
I think McTominay if he can become more disciplined might be able to do the job, but that is a big if.
Then after RW both CB and DM should be priority
That I completely agree with. It will allow us to attack in numbers and we'd have defensive balance.
VDB joining story is likely solid.
Thing is, Matic didn't started as a top DMF didn't he. Plenty of top DMF learned their trade higher up the midfield first, then gradually move lower.
I think the idea is, since there are realistically no proven top DMF will be joining, then having three players McT, Fred and VDB in the squad meant more than enough seasons for them (McT and VDB especially) to mature more, gradually learned DMF roles to the utmost highest level and then replace Matic. That is always an option.
Even better really since VDB is also that good at attacking. Rather than gettting a pure DMF now, having a midfielder that can play across all the CMs position is for me a higher priority and better on the long run.
Thing is, Matic didn't started as a top DMF didn't he. Plenty of top DMF learned their trade higher up the midfield first, then gradually move lower.
I think the idea is, since there are realistically no proven top DMF will be joining, then having three players McT, Fred and VDB in the squad meant more than enough seasons for them (McT and VDB especially) to mature more, gradually learned DMF roles to the utmost highest level and then replace Matic. That is always an option.
Even better really since VDB is also that good at attacking. Rather than gettting a pure DMF now, having a midfielder that can play across all the CMs position is for me a higher priority and better on the long run.
We should be after Partey
Yeah should try and agree a deal to bring him in to take over from Matic next summer because quite clear than we have no intention of looking at upgrading this position until then
You guys have really covered a lot of things I've been thinking on this subject, people associate the holding role purely as a defensive one, but that safety net aspect helps the other two midfielders to play higher up if they know they can trust the holder to cover the ground behind him, then if the holder is also an excellent passer who can thread balls through the lines, it means it becomes easier to mount consistent pressure on teams, look at when we had Carrick and Scholes, we smothered teams with the way those two kept slicing through the lines into the forwards.
When it comes to the Am situation, if we get Sancho then I think he can slot in there is Bruno is out, or he can play LW if Rashford is out and Greenwood comes in on the RW, that's a pretty strong set of options within the front 4, I guess the question mark is if Pogba is the one out, but then if the holder we get is a good passer than a box to box like Fred or McTominay can be more attack minded in a midfield 3.
Exactly we need that DM that gives Pogba and Bruno the freedom and assurance to attack and also knows how to progress the ball from defense through the lines. Matic does this but if he's out we have no one else that can do this. Mctominay is always brought up but his positioning awareness is poor to let Pogba and Bruno do their thing and his passes are inconsistent to be able get the ball through the lines.
As for Pogba being out injured, we did fine when Bruno came in and people praised the trio of Bruno Fred and Matic as our best. We didnt struggle to create at all. Some even went as far as to say Pogba has to earn his place when he returns
I think we should get Sancho and a DM. The DM doesn't even have to be able to ping balls like Carrick. I think if we get Sancho and a DM that can progress the ball from defense, playing those forward passes through the lines while also capable of protecting the back line, this is enough to break down defenses.
Get Sancho and a DM and even when one of our midfielders is out we still have solid covers to do the job. Bruno is out play Sancho there and Greenwood takes Sancho's position on the right. Pogba is out play Fred there, we've already seen Bruno Fred Matic midfield does not struggle to create. Matic is out then play the new DM there (Zakaria maybe). No Pereira no Lingard no Mata
I really think who ever gets a tune out of Ndombele will have some player on their hands. In an era where teams press his ability under pressure at the base of midfield is invaluable.
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And Matic puts in another outstanding controlled performance with line breaks and a great pass to set up a counter and people still think we need a dynamic and mobile DM.
Matic is going to be incredibly difficult to replace.
Given there seems to be a penchant for a progressive midfielder with defensive ability and positional awareness.
The likes of Rice, Ndidi and Zakaria have nowhere near the progression and match intelligence that Matic offers so we may have to sacrifice a bit in the process in order to actually sign a player.
The last thing we want is a ragged Matic who needs rest and suddenly McTominay or Fred are shoehorned in behind.
It's gonna be tough to see where our solution lies and whether we do indeed choose to address it, given our penchant for not addressing key positions in the past.
Given there seems to be a penchant for a progressive midfielder with defensive ability and positional awareness.
The likes of Rice, Ndidi and Zakaria have nowhere near the progression and match intelligence that Matic offers so we may have to sacrifice a bit in the process in order to actually sign a player.
The last thing we want is a ragged Matic who needs rest and suddenly McTominay or Fred are shoehorned in behind.
It's gonna be tough to see where our solution lies and whether we do indeed choose to address it, given our penchant for not addressing key positions in the past.
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All three are intelligent defenders and really good players. But they don’t operate in some cases due to system as line breaking passers to the level of Matic. Ndidi is the best aggressive defender, Rice is harder to judge as he gets let down often by other West Ham players and Zakaria is more of a line breaker through his dribbles.
My only concern is if you watch Matic in our high attacking line set up he is not aggressive and diving into challenges it’s always about delaying the counter. You don’t need mobility you need outstanding positioning.
It will be very difficult to replace Matic...It does seem that France produces the best defensive midfielders, ( Makelele, Kante).... Tolisso now, is the one coming through.....
I think we also need a left footed CB to compliment Maguire and I would turn to another young french player in Badiashile.
I just hope we get Sancho for the right side. Love to see him play with Rashford, Martial, and Fernandes.
I think we also need a left footed CB to compliment Maguire and I would turn to another young french player in Badiashile.
I just hope we get Sancho for the right side. Love to see him play with Rashford, Martial, and Fernandes.
Maybe its DLP we need, someone like Carrick/Pirlo the question is do they exist anymore?
The is important to note and Mata can be trusted to fill in the No.10 role if needed for a few games but we lose control and dictate matches if we lose Matic and/or Pogba. Common sense would say we need someone to rotate with Matic next season because we can't expect 40 plus games from him whilst the drop off in quality is huge if we lose any one of our starting midfield three, ironically Pogba is the easiest to replace as both Fred and McTominay can play a different role as the energetic harrier. Funds permitting we should be picking up two midfielders to come in as understudy to Matic and Bruno to avoid the possibility of starting with a Fred - McT - Lingard midfield but as you say, if we get Sancho he could play the No.10 role as a deep forward when need. Our scouts should be able to scout a suitable DM on the cheap preferably one with the potential to grow into Matic's role but someone capable of a squad role even after Matic is done would suffice for next season's purposes.
Tonali, if he is not off to Inter/Juventus
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Koopmeiners, Tonali, Veratti, Busquets, Brozovic, Paredes, Kroos, Thiago, Parejo, Jorginho etc.
Not saying all would suit us but the above perform deep playmaking roles.
Those that would suit our needs:
Koop
Tonali
Veratti
Busquets
Those that would be achievable:
Koop
There's also Roca, Pape Gueye, Kalvin Phillips. They are all unproven but are performing in their respective leagues and would be cheap. Not sure how Roca is doing though
I keep seeing the name Koopmeiners pop up - do we think he’s good enough for the PL? I’m a little sceptical as he comes from Dutch league, Davy Klassen was highly rated and he didnt do well at all In the PL.
They are more Carrick than Pirlo, but Roca and Grillitsch are decent passers from deep in midfield.
I think we should make a move for Koopmeiner and making it now would allow him to settle in whilst Matic is still performing at an adequate level.
At this rate He will stay for another year at least.
And it goes to show how important it can be to have a DM that is a good passer and good with the ball at his feet.
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Personally I think yes. His game isn’t based on anything that isn’t easy to transfer into the PL. A lot of his best qualities are technical and mental in terms of decision making.
And we should use that year to blood in a proper replacement so that we won't approach the next summer from a position of desperation or suffer next season if Matic breaks down or loses form.
Yes. I agree. Maybe for this transfer window, focus on getting Sancho.
Ruben Neves.