[Hughes35]

Brilliant win really. Didn't play that well but the attitude defensively was superb.

I love how the players actually enjoy working hard and defending now. I think Martinez and Dalot are a big part of this, you can see the passion every time they make a block. It's infectious and I love it !

De Gea, Martinez, Dalot, Shaw and Rashford were all excellent.

Also a shout out to Maguire who, although I didn't think was quite as good as the rest of the back 4, was still very solid and won some great headers near the end. It's tough to come back from where he has been so credit to him.

 

[Gycraig]

I struggle to understand the use of words like 'dreadful' and 'awful' used for games like that.

Barring the last 15 minutes, we had them right where we wanted them. Just missing the second killer goal.

We were a bit sloppy in possession and made some bad decisions in injury time that nearly cost us, but fortunately our defence did their jobs brilliantly and won us the match.

West Ham are a decent team, it’s like man United are expected to win every game 3-0 playing expansive football

it’s clear to see the team is miles better than last season, has a strategy and executes it well, we know ronaldo is finished and we know maguire doesn’t suit ten hags playing style, I don’t get what people expect when the striker is ancient and frankly not very good anymore and the cb has like 50 page threads on here for being shite.

 

[Sultan]

Made hard work of that. Maguire played really well

Maguire and Ronaldo are the biggest issues in the team. Maguire lacks confidence and pace and Ronaldo has lost his power and pace due to age and is now a shadow of his former great self. It was inevitable the performance would dip with them both starting. Obviously, the balance in the team on the right also suffered with Antony not starting.

The defence has not mastered playing out from the back. Maguire holds on to the ball too long and is too predictable allowing opposition defenders to regroup and get in shape. It's been said in posts above defending the penalty area is not an issue for Maguire. He thrived at Leicester and under Ole when playing counter-attacking games. Defending higher up the pitch is not his forte.

The tempo of the game suffers and with Maguire's lack of pace, and DeGea not generally liking to be away from his comfort zone (goal line) we were defending too deep in the last 15 minutes.

 

[Foolsgold21]

3 points, which is all that matters

 

[Rams]

Great resilience and nice to see us picking up 3 points when not playing at our best. Much more like the United of old. Should also be finishing games off, need to be more clinical because if we take our chances for the 2-0 we get far less stress in the final stages. Rashford & Martinez were top class yesterday. The manager is already doing a brilliant job, very lucky to have him.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Maguire and Ronaldo are the biggest issues in the team. Maguire lacks confidence and pace and Ronaldo has lost his power and pace due to age and is now a shadow of his former great self. It was inevitable the performance would dip with them both starting. Obviously, the balance in the team on the right also suffered with Antony not starting.

The defence has not mastered playing out from the back. Maguire holds on to the ball too long and is too predictable allowing opposition defenders to regroup and get in shape. It's been said in posts above defending the penalty area is not an issue for Maguire. He thrived at Leicester and under Ole when playing counter-attacking games. Defending higher up the pitch is not his forte.

The tempo of the game suffers and with Maguire's lack of pace, and DeGea not generally liking to be away from his comfort zone (goal line) we were defending too deep in the last 15 minutes.

I don't disagree. I was trying to be kind to Maguire because relative to what we expect, he did perform above expectation. There is of course a huge issue with how we play with both him and Ronaldo in the team. In both cases we have better alternatives (Martial/Rashy + Lindy/Varane).

 

[cyberman]

Just watching MOTD2 and I don’t think I’d be happy seeing Antonio as an analyst hours after losing a game if I were a West Ham fan.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Might be a bit random to bring it up now, because we ended up winning the game, but how mental was it not to give Scamacca a second yellow for booting Martinez in the head? You could almost see it from Kavanagh's body language, that he knew it should be yellow, but he didn't want to give a second for that. It was cowardly refereeing, and I'm surprised more hasn't been made of it. That was a yellow all day, every day.

I also just remembered that this was the same waste of space that disallowed Cavani's goal against Spurs after McTominay lightly brushed Son's cheek. What a cnut.

 

[antohan]

He was his usual self. Fish out of water in the back line when it came to passing and positioning, which meant we were pinned back to our own box, where ironically he was in his element and could save us with some good last ditch tackles amd headers. Overall, hard to see a way back into the team for him. He doesn't possess the skills ETH requires.

We will be under siege plenty, and it usually means we are winning. If he performs in those circumstances we can use him.

 

[GueRed]

Our possession game could've been better. We didnt dominate the game as I would've liked.

The midfield was a real battle... Casimero was marked out of the game and Eriksen and Bruno found it hard to find pockets of space between West Ham's lines,
making it a real challenge for Martinez and Maguire to play the ball forward from the back.

The goal was beautiful. Moment of true quality.

Last 15 minutes it was a real backs against the wall stuff, the team showed great spirit again!
We were really wasteful on the counter-attack which was frustrating though.

All in all it was a good result against a solid West Ham side. 3 points that all what matters. Happy with another clean sheet.

 

[Gycraig]

Might be a bit random to bring it up now, because we ended up winning the game, but how mental was it not to give Scamacca a second yellow for booting Martinez in the head? You could almost see it from Kavanagh's body language, that he knew it should be yellow, but he didn't want to give a second for that. It was cowardly refereeing, and I'm surprised more hasn't been made of it. That was a yellow all day, every day.

I also just remembered that this was the same waste of space that disallowed Cavani's goal against Spurs after McTominay lightly brushed Son's cheek. What a cnut.

“He used the side of his boot though” you never hear this for United players, if mctominay or Bruno did that no way is it not a yellow or even a straight red.

honestly feels like United are playing a different sport sometimes, I watch Liverpool Man City etc etc commit professional found after professional foul and do stupid things over and over and nothing happens yet nearly every 50-50 foul I watch for United the ref is reaching for his pocket.

united have to act like school boys while other teams kick people off the park

 

[Oldham]

Yeah Scamacca not getting booked was indeed bizarre...

 

[Mike Smalling]

“He used the side of his boot though” you never hear this for United players, if mctominay or Bruno did that no way is it not a yellow or even a straight red.

honestly feels like United are playing a different sport sometimes, I watch Liverpool Man City etc etc commit professional found after professional foul and do stupid things over and over and nothing happens yet nearly every 50-50 foul I watch for United the ref is reaching for his pocket.

united have to act like school boys while other teams kick people off the park

I wouldn't necessarily go that far, but yesterday was weird in many ways. I also counted three or four times Casemiro was punished for very, very soft fouls. It seemed deliberate that the 50-50's went against him every time.

 

[justsomebloke]

“He used the side of his boot though” you never hear this for United players, if mctominay or Bruno did that no way is it not a yellow or even a straight red.

honestly feels like United are playing a different sport sometimes, I watch Liverpool Man City etc etc commit professional found after professional foul and do stupid things over and over and nothing happens yet nearly every 50-50 foul I watch for United the ref is reaching for his pocket.

united have to act like school boys while other teams kick people off the park

Nah. It feels that way, but I think that's probably just confirmation bias. Perfectly natural, I doubt you will find any club where the fans don't think the same.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

I know many fans don't like Maguire. Even the match going fans boo Maguire previously when his form was very bad. I find that this behavior is bizarre.

Rashford, DDG, Dalot, Shaw were all condemned by the fans. Look at where they are now. Even Martial, Fred and McT improved under ETH. Maguire should be given a fair chance to prove himself under ETH too.

Maguire vs West Ham, he was part of the heroic defensive display by the team. It's weird that he was was condemned by many posters here. The defensive 5 (DDG, Martinez, Maguire, Shaw and Dalot) produce one of the best defensive performance in years and all of them should be highly praised.

 

[justsomebloke]

I know many fans don't like Maguire. Even the match going fans boo Maguire previously when his form was very bad. I find that this behavior is bizarre.

Rashford, DDG, Dalot, Shaw were all condemned by the fans. Look at where they are now. Even Martial, Fred and McT improved under ETH. Maguire should be given a fair chance to prove himself under ETH too.

Maguire vs West Ham was part of the heroic defensive display by the team and he was was condemned by many posters here. The defensive 5 (DDG, Martinez, Maguire, Shaw and Dalot) produce one of the best defensive performance in years and all of them should be highly praised.

Sorry, but I don't think that's correct. If anything, we looked more wobbly defensively than we have in many games. Also, you can't write off criticism of Maguire as simply a reflection of people not liking him. I've often defended him in the past, and I deplored the booing, but frankly he did not play well yesterday. In fact, that is by some distance the worst performance I have seen from a United CB since at least the City game. Yes he did well during those frantic final 15 minutes, but that doesn't outweigh his poor to very poor performance for the rest of the game.

 

[georgipep]

Nah. It feels that way, but I think that's probably just confirmation bias. Perfectly natural, I doubt you will find any club where the fans don't think the same.

Very true and I can definitely confirm from friends that both Spurs and Liverpool fans feel similarly about their team being refereed more strictly than others.

 

[georgipep]

Sorry, but I don't think that's correct. If anything, we looked more wobbly defensively than we have in many games. Also, you can't write off criticism of Maguire as simply a reflection of people not liking him. I've often defended him in the past, and I deplored the booing, but frankly he did not play well yesterday.

To me the problem wasn't in Maguire but in the pairing. Both him and Martinez are used to be the proactive defender, the one who engages attackers higher up the pitch, relying on their partner to stay back and mop whatever the aggressive one let's pass them. Lindelof and Varane are both exactly that more relaxed, covering CB type.

Maguire, yesterday, was asked to be the covering CB and his instincts took over the tactical instructions. I'm sure ETH has addressed that already. I think we need to give him the opportunity to showcase if he can adapt because he definitely has the skills to be an option for United.

I am fairly certain though that him and Martinez will not be the ETH-preferred pairing.

 

[justsomebloke]

To me the problem wasn't in Maguire but in the pairing. Both him and Martinez are used to be the proactive defender, the one who engages attackers higher up the pitch, relying on their partner to stay back and mop whatever the aggressive one let's pass them. Lindelof and Varane are both exactly that more relaxed, covering CB type.

Maguire, yesterday, was asked to be the covering CB and his instincts took over the tactical instructions. I'm sure ETH has addressed that already. I think we need to give him the opportunity to showcase if he can adapt because he definitely has the skills to be an option for United.

I am fairly certain though that him and Martinez will not be the ETH-preferred pairing.

Some fair observations there. I'm not sure it really makes sense to keep someone of that stature around as a captain just to back up Martinez though.

I'd have to say that watching Martinez and Varane play has really changed my perception of Maguire. Particularly regarding his speed of thinking and execution. I was prepared to ascribe a lot of that to our midfield; the lack of passing options when we were in possession, and defensively the CD being too exposed to bad situations because the central midfield was unable to cover the space in front of them effectively. But Martinez and Varane dispensed with all of that, even before Casemiro started playing regularly and the midfield really clicked. It's not just his slowness in turning and accelerating, or the time he takes to process the ball, it's also those split-second too late judgments he makes in challenges outside our own box. Once he's inside the box, his mind seems to work in a different gear, and he can be downright impressive. Possibly it's a confidence issue?

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Sorry, but I don't think that's correct. If anything, we looked more wobbly defensively than we have in many games. Also, you can't write off criticism of Maguire as simply a reflection of people not liking him. I've often defended him in the past, and I deplored the booing, but frankly he did not play well yesterday. In fact, that is by some distance the worst performance I have seen from a United CB since at least the City game. Yes he did well during those frantic final 15 minutes, but that doesn't outweigh his poor to very poor performance for the rest of the game.

In the 2nd half, we played badly as a team especially we lost the midfield battle. West Ham was dominating us. We failed to control the game like we used to be the last few games. It was nothing to do with Maguire. We were forced to defend deep.

The defend was the only department held strong and secured the 3 points. Maguire was part of that heroic. To me he deserve praise considering he was just back from injury and getting used to ETH style.

 

[Giggsy13]

Dalot was immense, MOTM. Just goes to show you can’t pass early judgments on young players, so those doubting Sancho may want to rethink their sweeping conclusions of him.

 

[justsomebloke]

In the 2nd half, we played badly as a team especially we lost the midfield battle. West Ham was dominating us. We failed to control the game like we used to be the last few games. It was nothing to do with Maguire. We were forced to defend deep.

The defend was the only department held strong and secured the 3 points. Maguire was part of that heroic. To me he deserve praise considering he was just back from injury and getting used to ETH style.

That's really only an accurate description of the last 10-15 minutes, not of the 2nd half as a whole. But in any case I'm naturally not blaming Maguire for the fact that we were pushed back in that phase. I'm more concerned with his weak defensive positioning in the first half especially, his chronic difficulties with processing the ball quickly and efficiently, very variable passing and several badly timed and executed challenges that left him taken out of the play, or risked set pieces in dangerous positions. Martinez and Dalot bailed him out on several occasions.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

That's really only an accurate description of the last 10-15 minutes, not of the 2nd half as a whole. But in any case I'm naturally not blaming Maguire for the fact that we were pushed back in that phase. I'm more concerned with his weak defensive positioning in the first half especially, his chronic difficulties with processing the ball quickly and efficiently, very variable passing and several badly timed and executed challenges that left him taken out of the play, or risked set pieces in dangerous positions. Martinez and Dalot bailed him out on several occasions.

Maguire maybe a bit rusty considering his circumstances. We need to give him time and fair chance with ETH. He was doing fine the first game after his return with massive contribution. He was part of the big reason we fought and secured the 3 points.

Maguire is ok with the ball. He needs more confident after what he has been through the last few months. We need to forget about last season where majority of our squad was disaster under Ole and Rangnick. I believe he will improve under ETH. Our best CB partnership is Martinez and Varane but Varane is injury prone. We need Maguire to get into form for rotation.

 

[justsomebloke]

Maguire maybe a bit rusty considering his circumstances. We need to give him time and fair chance with ETH. He was doing fine the first game after his return with massive contribution. He was part of the big reason we fought and secured the 3 points.

Maguire is ok with the ball. He needs more confident after what he has been through the last few months. We need to forget about last season where majority of our squad was disaster under Ole and Rangnick. I believe he will improve under ETH. Our best CB partnership is Martinez and Varane but Varane is injury prone. We need Maguire to get into form for rotation.

Sorry, but I just don't agree with you. I thought he was one of our worst players yesterday, and that he made us a significantly less effective team, not just compared to Varane but also compared to Lindelof when he was playing in that position. I really don't see him suited to filling Varane's role, and his issues are things of long standing, not stuff that came up exceptionally because he's rusty. He just looks like a bad fit for EtHs requirements to me.

 

[OleTheGreat]

What a scruffy game that was!!! We forgot to win those second balls after we were successful doing that in the previous games. It felt like last season for a game there but we managed to win somehow.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Sorry, but I just don't agree with you. I thought he was one of our worst players yesterday, and that he made us a significantly less effective team, not just compared to Varane but also compared to Lindelof when he was playing in that position. I really don't see him suited to filling Varane's role, and his issues are things of long standing, not stuff that came up exceptionally because he's rusty. He just looks like a bad fit for EtHs requirements to me.

We just have to agree to disagree. Vs West Ham, Midfield was our major problem and not Maguire or defence.

 

[lex talionis]

The players were hanging on for their lives at the end. It was an important match to put out our best XI based on recent form -- Sancho benched for Elanga and Maguire on for the injured Varane -- but we need to give Bruno and Eriksen some rest. Probably Dalot, who was outstanding yesterday, as well.

 

[poleglass red]

I thought both full backs were excellent. Midfield possession especially in 2nd half was very sloppy, a lot if simple passes going astray. West Ham always give us a tough game, but we stood up to them, competed physically with them. That's a game we probably lose or draw last season.

 

[Stig]

Bruno's booking means he will miss a game and I like that. I think he's the last of the undroppables but gives the ball away all the time ans his shooting has been awful.

DvB will get a chance to show us something different.

 

[georgipep]

Some fair observations there. I'm not sure it really makes sense to keep someone of that stature around as a captain just to back up Martinez though.

I'd have to say that watching Martinez and Varane play has really changed my perception of Maguire. Particularly regarding his speed of thinking and execution. I was prepared to ascribe a lot of that to our midfield; the lack of passing options when we were in possession, and defensively the CD being too exposed to bad situations because the central midfield was unable to cover the space in front of them effectively. But Martinez and Varane dispensed with all of that, even before Casemiro started playing regularly and the midfield really clicked. It's not just his slowness in turning and accelerating, or the time he takes to process the ball, it's also those split-second too late judgments he makes in challenges outside our own box. Once he's inside the box, his mind seems to work in a different gear, and he can be downright impressive. Possibly it's a confidence issue?

I've also massively changed my opinion on Maguire, and not to the better. But!

What you mention about our improved stability and dealing with the lack of occasional midfield cover, I don't think that's true. We only managed to limit opponents in entering our penalty box and creating chances once Casemiro became established member of the starting XI. Varane and Martinez didn't move those metrics too much before Casemiro started shielding. And there was a stark difference in our defensive line depth that is definitely a tactical decision, coming from ETH regardless of the improvements provided by the Varane-Martinez pairing.

Whether a player of Maguire's stature in the game is a good 4th option for a club like United is a very good question. But we also need to consider what are the alternatives? Would we sell him? If so, for what price? Would there be any buyers for that price? What would be Maguire's wages requirements? Would the potential buyers agree to that too? A lot of questions...

And lastly, about confidence, it certainly plays a significant role. He has been blasted by media, pundits and fans. It doesn't really matter how mentally strong he is, that surely affects him. I hope he manages to build his confidence back up and be a positive contributor to the squad. We need all the in-form players we can get this season.

 

[justsomebloke]

I've also massively changed my opinion on Maguire, and not to the better. But!

What you mention about our improved stability and dealing with the lack of occasional midfield cover, I don't think that's true. We only managed to limit opponents in entering our penalty box and creating chances once Casemiro became established member of the starting XI. Varane and Martinez didn't move those metrics too much before Casemiro started shielding. And there was a stark difference in our defensive line depth that is definitely a tactical decision, coming from ETH regardless of the improvements provided by the Varane-Martinez pairing.

Whether a player of Maguire's stature in the game is a good 4th option for a club like United is a very good question. But we also need to consider what are the alternatives? Would we sell him? If so, for what price? Would there be any buyers for that price? What would be Maguire's wages requirements? Would the potential buyers agree to that too? A lot of questions...

And lastly, about confidence, it certainly plays a significant role. He has been blasted by media, pundits and fans. It doesn't really matter how mentally strong he is, that surely affects him. I hope he manages to build his confidence back up and be a positive contributor to the squad. We need all the in-form players we can get this season.

Okay, I'll not argue against that, but my point pertained mainly to the ability of the CBs to move the ball more quickly and effectively up to the midfielders when playing out from the back. And I do think Martinez and Varane showed a marked improvement in that even before Casemiro began starting regularly. Lindelof's managed it when playing with Martinez too. I also think, on general impressions, they did better controlling the play defensively than we do with Maguire, but I don't have the metrics to back that up - so if you do and they say otherwise, I'll not dispute that.

Who knows if moving Maguire on for serious money (40-50m) would be possible, but if it is, I think it's hard to argue that we shouldn't. If we can't, the issue of whether he can really continue as captain will quickly become a pressing one. It can't be much of a plus for him either, as things stand. It just puts his relative failure into relief.

I too hope he'll manage to rebuild his confidence and find a way to contribute within his means.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Sorry, but I don't think that's correct. If anything, we looked more wobbly defensively than we have in many games. Also, you can't write off criticism of Maguire as simply a reflection of people not liking him. I've often defended him in the past, and I deplored the booing, but frankly he did not play well yesterday. In fact, that is by some distance the worst performance I have seen from a United CB since at least the City game. Yes he did well during those frantic final 15 minutes, but that doesn't outweigh his poor to very poor performance for the rest of the game.

That was his first start in two months but you don't mention that at all... if it was Varane or Martinez I'm pretty sure you'd factor that in, and the entire tone of your post would be different.

 

[Tincanalley]

Just watching MOTD2 and I don’t think I’d be happy seeing Antonio as an analyst hours after losing a game if I were a West Ham fan.

Had the same thought. Had he anything interesting to say?

 

[gerdm07]

I think the last 20 minutes of hanging on can be explained for two reasons. One, we ran out of gas because of the busy schedule the past 3 weeks. Two, McFred were playing.

We need another midfielder and CF in January if we are going to compete on many fronts.

 

[Tincanalley]

Maguire did well. Bruno needs a rest. Eriksen was class. DDG amazing. I’m delighted for Markus. I thought Elanga was fairly quiet…

 

[justsomebloke]

That was his first start in two months but you don't mention that at all... if it was Varane or Martinez I'm pretty sure you'd factor that in, and the entire tone of your post would be different.

There's no "tone". I'm just telling it like I see it. But sure, let's factor that in. It's not unreasonable. But the things he did badly are not generally uncharacteristic of him - they've been in evidence for a long time. So I'm a bit skeptical that's to blame.

 

[cyberman]

Had the same thought. Had he anything interesting to say?

Not really, it just turned into an Antonio appreciation segment instead of actually analysing the game.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Dalot was immense, MOTM. Just goes to show you can’t pass early judgments on young players, so those doubting Sancho may want to rethink their sweeping conclusions of him.

No kidding. I never thought he would be able to defend like that a year or so ago. He seemed lazy to me and would not even hustle back when beaten. So glad to see him takeoff. I for sure was wrong about him at the time.

 

[georgipep]

Okay, I'll not argue against that, but my point pertained mainly to the ability of the CBs to move the ball more quickly and effectively up to the midfielders when playing out from the back. And I do think Martinez and Varane showed a marked improvement in that even before Casemiro began starting regularly. Lindelof's managed it when playing with Martinez too. I also think, on general impressions, they did better controlling the play defensively than we do with Maguire, but I don't have the metrics to back that up - so if you do and they say otherwise, I'll not dispute that.

Who knows if moving Maguire on for serious money (40-50m) would be possible, but if it is, I think it's hard to argue that we shouldn't. If we can't, the issue of whether he can really continue as captain will quickly become a pressing one. It can't be much of a plus for him either, as things stand. It just puts his relative failure into relief.

I too hope he'll manage to rebuild his confidence and find a way to contribute within his means.

I agree with both things you say here:
1. Martinez is significantly better at moving the ball quickly and breaking lines.
2. We should look to recoup at least 50% of the amount we paid for Maguire and if we get such an offer, we should accept it and not look back.

I really hope the club is ready to become more pragmatic with transfers, and not remain stuck in "giving chances" and "protecting value".

 

[Strootman's Finger]

Might be a bit random to bring it up now, because we ended up winning the game, but how mental was it not to give Scamacca a second yellow for booting Martinez in the head? You could almost see it from Kavanagh's body language, that he knew it should be yellow, but he didn't want to give a second for that. It was cowardly refereeing, and I'm surprised more hasn't been made of it. That was a yellow all day, every day.

I also just remembered that this was the same waste of space that disallowed Cavani's goal against Spurs after McTominay lightly brushed Son's cheek. What a cnut.

Moyes scrambling to sub him right after suggests they knew they got away with one.