[Pogue Mahone]

Yes I can see it's confusingly structured reading it back. To explain:

Because clearly we had not prepared for it in advance, what their wingers did forced our wingbacks into one of two traps, the first pair of numbered options in my post. On our right side, we walked into trap number 1. On our right side, we walked into trap number 2.

There are two ways to set up our system to avoid walking into these traps, the second pair of numbered options in my post. But (disagreeing with your response), before the game you do have to pick one or the other. Because you need to be able to slip into a 4321 formation in the defensive phase. One way of doing it has your wingbacks become part of the back four, and a CB step out into midfield. One way of doing it has your wingbacks stay high as part of the '3', and a CM step back into defence.

I don't agree you can mix and match, because you want that change of shape from attacking to defensive phase to happen the same regardless of which flank the ball is coming down. Otherwise one switch of play from the opposition and you're in total chaos.


To be clear I don't see any of this as a fatal flaw in the system - I like the system and believe Amorim can make it work (and has already, in some games). I just think the reason we weren't as good as we should have been in this game, especially the first half, was down to a failure to prepare strategically, not the weakness of individual players as the Yoro/Mainoo performance threads would have you believe.

I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not arguing we should some sort of fixed approach, different on one flank to the other. I'm making the opposite point, if anything. We need CBs who are smart enough (and well drilled enough) to know when to step out of defence and when to sit tight. Ditto with CMs dropping back to help in defence. Both things need to happen at different points in a game of football. And the only way this can happen is by spending more and more time working together in training.

Poor individual performances are a separate issue. Yoro wasn't getting the runaround because of tactics, he just had a poor game and his 1v1 defending wasn't good enough. It happens. He's just a kid. Same applies to Mainoo, compounded by Ugarte having a rare off day as well. Along with Hojlund's recurring issues with getting on the ball enough to help us progress out of our half. And we know all of this because it wasn't a change of tactics that helped us eventually get on top. It was a change of personnel.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Agreed.
Obviously lumping the ball up to Hojlund and expecting something positive from that is pretty silly. He has a number of limitations and holding the ball up and laying it off is certainly one of them.

Yesterday could have easily gone very badly wrong had it not been for Amad.

Nevertheless a win is a win and for some reason we rarely play well against Southampton.

And I don't necessarily buy the tiredness excuse. 4 days since we played should be enough rest for elite athletes.

The most frustrating thing re the use of Hojlund was that we even saw how to get behind them but played the ball twice the entire half. instead lumping it up to him vs Bednarek who is a giant or into his feet to hold up which is an area of weakness for him.

As soon as it became clear Yoro was struggling vs Sulemana, they funnelled their attacks that way and he caused us all sorts of problems. It's basic game management from the team, if there's a weakness to exploit you exploit it until they adapt to prevent it.
We saw Hojlund burn their RCB for pace with the assist to Garnacho, but then decided to go back to lumping it until we finally did it again, Martinez long ball, and it worked again, when he set up Bruno.

 

[Brightonian]

I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not arguing we should some sort of fixed approach, different on one flank to the other. I'm making the opposite point, if anything. We need CBs who are smart enough (and well drilled enough) to know when to step out of defence and when to sit tight. Ditto with CMs dropping back to help in defence. Both things need to happen at different points in a game of football. And the only way this can happen is by spending more and more time working together in training.

Poor individual performances are a separate issue. Yoro wasn't getting the runaround because of tactics, he just had a poor game and his 1v1 defending wasn't good enough. It happens. He's just a kid. Same applies to Mainoo, compounded by Ugarte having a rare off day as well. Along with Hojlund's recurring issues with getting on the ball enough to help us progress out of our half. And we know all of this because it wasn't a change of tactics that helped us eventually get on top. It was a change of personnel.

I think it's an agree to disagree then. Watching back, the positions Yoro finds himself in against Sulemana are just wrong. Yes, he could have had a really good Wan Bissaka-style 1-on-1 day and come out of it looking good, but the odds were stacked against him. He actually put in a few really nice tackles, they were just outweighed by the sheer number of times he was stranded out in no-man's land by the formation. I think the tactical side of this match made it very difficult for him to have a good game. Likewise Ugarte and Mainoo. I don't think it is coincidence that they looked good agains Arsenal in a very different tactical set-up and looked less effective in this one.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think it's an agree to disagree then. Watching back, the positions Yoro finds himself in against Sulemana are just wrong. Yes, he could have had a really good Wan Bissaka-style 1-on-1 day and come out of it looking good, but the odds were stacked against him. He actually put in a few really nice tackles, they were just outweighed by the sheer number of times he was stranded out in no-man's land by the formation. I think the tactical side of this match made it very difficult for him to have a good game. Likewise Ugarte and Mainoo. I don't think it is coincidence that they looked good agains Arsenal in a very different tactical set-up and looked less effective in this one.

I disagree, positionally Yoro was good. It was just a massacre of a one on one duel.

Sulemana never got the ball and didn't have to run at him/take him on. Yoro marked him well, he just couldn't handle him one on one. Stylistically Yoro seems very stand offish, like he wants the player to run at him and he will drop off, match them for pace and then nick the ball away. This guy was just too electric from an acceleration perspective, he just burned him every time even when Yoro started in a better position than him.

I do agree the setup made life a lot harder for the side CBs, in that Soton essentially kept creating one on ones against them, particularly targeting Yoro, but positionally I thought he was really solid. He's a kid and I am sure he'll be great long term, but that was like watching an adult play a child at times - literally every take on seemed to be successful.

 

[Isotope]

More than that perhaps a striker who has extreme levels of intensity, along with other players who have very high levels of intensity too. I believe that is the reason we are lacking domination in these games. If you see some of our play, we are putting in crunching tackles and we are making calm passes (albeit slowly), so the argument that the players aren't physical or are scared doesn't make sense to me. This is just because they are intense at all, the majority of them anyway, in these small games and that's because in the past they've not been

Definitely.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think it's an agree to disagree then. Watching back, the positions Yoro finds himself in against Sulemana are just wrong. Yes, he could have had a really good Wan Bissaka-style 1-on-1 day and come out of it looking good, but the odds were stacked against him. He actually put in a few really nice tackles, they were just outweighed by the sheer number of times he was stranded out in no-man's land by the formation. I think the tactical side of this match made it very difficult for him to have a good game. Likewise Ugarte and Mainoo. I don't think it is coincidence that they looked good agains Arsenal in a very different tactical set-up and looked less effective in this one.

We’ll definitely have to agree to disagree if you seriously think the Arsenal game was a “very different tactical set-up”. That’s a strange take. Seems to me like you’ve gone off on an odd one to find a way to somehow blame the manager instead of players who didn’t play well.

 

[Gator Nate]

This match shows exactly why we'll never be in a relegation fight. Too much individual quality. Can't believe people are actually discussing this as a possibility.

If each of our main squad shows up properly for just 10 games out of 38 and they all show up together as expected for 5 or 6 of the big games, that'll keep us well away from the relegation spots.

Of course, our aims are a lot higher than survival but it shows how consistently poor and unlucky we would have to be to even get dragged into a relegation battle.

Yes, all this. I have watched all the bottom teams play, and how they lose, and I am genuinely not worried. Southampton's folding was not a huge surprise - that's what they do, they don't know how to win. Ipswitch have dropped so many points in the last 10 minutes. Wolves and Leicester leak goals like crazy. We are not them.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

This match shows exactly why we'll never be in a relegation fight. Too much individual quality. Can't believe people are actually discussing this as a possibility.

If each of our main squad shows up properly for just 10 games out of 38 and they all show up together as expected for 5 or 6 of the big games, that'll keep us well away from the relegation spots.

Of course, our aims are a lot higher than survival but it shows how consistently poor and unlucky we would have to be to even get dragged into a relegation battle.

There's a lot of "ifs" in that statement.

Against Southampton we were a few minutes away from being 16th in the league after having played 21 matches

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

Yeah, this is unfathomable to me. Obviously we have to clear it long sometimes, but other times we play Højlund like he is a Drogba type player, which he clearly isn't. When we find him running the channels, he can sometimes provide something useful. When we play it to his feet around the center circle with a defender in tight coverage, we just lose the ball.

It's a combination of a player with severe limitations and the team not playing well enough to mitigate it.

Exactly. I'm conflicted about where to apportion the blame.

I've taken a look at some highlight reels from his time at Atalanta. I don't see any evidence he was EVER that type of hold up player.

When you watch him at United a LOT of our passes to him (I use that phrase lightly) are booted up either from Onana or our defenders. Long ball "passes" are telegraphed. The opposition defenders can see where the ball is heading, identify it's going tgowards Hojlund and just barge him/pressure him in the back. Yes, his touch at times is poor but he's getting manhandled a lot of time due to the long ball tactics of our team which I can only assume Amorim must be coaching.

 

[DJ_21]

Just seen a clip of a mouse being spotted running around OT while the game is on. How on earth are we getting mice/rats at OT. And we serve food there.

 

[leeroyTX]

Anyone mentioned the absolute sitter Antony botched? Still down at that point, too. Why the f*** he went into a slide is beyond me. Stay on your feet and bury that.

 

[Tincanalley]

Just seen a clip of a mouse being spotted running around OT while the game is on. How on earth are we getting mice/rats at OT. And we serve food there.

What number was he wearing?

 

[dutchred]

Just seen a clip of a mouse being spotted running around OT while the game is on. How on earth are we getting mice/rats at OT. And we serve food there.

What number was he wearing?

9

 

[gaffs]

But against the better teams we raise our game anyway. So basically we’re unbeatable now.

We do against Liverpool, City and Arsenal. Not so much against mid table teams. We will see Sunday v Brighton.

 

[erikcred]

There's a lot of "ifs" in that statement.

Against Southampton we were a few minutes away from being 16th in the league after having played 21 matches

I thought the ifs indicated a pretty low bar. But if you think our players can't clear that, then yes you're welcome to be quite worried for the rest of the season.

 

[DJ_21]

What number was he wearing?

Dunno but I heard he’s better than Antony. And runs around more than Rashford.

 

[erikcred]

We do against Liverpool, City and Arsenal. Not so much against mid table teams. We will see Sunday v Brighton.

Obviously, I was joking about being 'unbeatable'.

For now, I'll take desperate comeback wins against the mid table teams.

 

[gaffs]

Pace seems to be everything in football. A lot of defenders can not deal with pace. We need to invest in some rapid tricky players

It is final product. Lucily when Yoro was skinned by Sulemana (the 4 or 5 times) it led to nothing.

We have players with pace - Rashford and Garnaco aint slow. But where is the final product from them?

 

[DJ_21]

It is final product. Lucily when Yoro was skinned by Sulemana (the 4 or 5 times) it led to nothing.

We have players with pace - Rashford and Garnaco aint slow. But where is the final product from them?

They have final product. I just don’t think they have concentration.

 

[FreakyJim]

What do you mean "already"? You and a few others have been whingeing about it since before Amorim was even signed.

Fair