We're a fecking madhouse this year. I keep wanting to turn away and yet here I am again.
PL W FA Premier League
Manchester United 2:1 Brentford
Post-match discussion
Sat, 07 October 2023
Of course he did love
Your team time wasted from 30 mins in, to an embarrassing level, against a struggling Utd. You set up shop in your own half and swapped every thrower and free kick taker you could, every single time, you can piss off if you think you deserve any extra time after that nonsense
It's always hilarious when these time wasting teams get punished late on.
I was watching final score in mates before we went out, and Warnock ex scouser and that tit Sutton on it.. and we had 1 ruled out for offside they were loving it, then oh we get equaliser ,then the winner and oh they were hoping for another offside. You could see the disappointment in there faces because UTDs late goals..
Great Scot made the difference and direct football.. nothing special but 3pts.. all the same
Great Scot made the difference and direct football.. nothing special but 3pts.. all the same
We weren't nearly as bad as some reports would have us believe - Brentford had very few real moments in the game and Onana was absolutely at fault for their goal. As I feared when we signed him, he's not nearly good enough.
But there were some good/very good performances: Dalot was good, Evans was very good and Hojilund was fantastic again. Erkisen did OK when he came on and I've been saying here for ages that there's a good player in Scotty trying to get out: he'll never be Paul Scholes but he's United through and through and plays with the passion we used to show under SAF, no wonder he's been at the club since he was five.
On the downside, although he didn''t make any telling mistakes, Maguire is still just a lump, Fernandes isn't a wide player and rashford is as poor now as he was brilliant after the World Cup last season. Martial continues to look a clown.
Garnacho, particularly, and Antony made a huge difference when they came on, adding pace and width (when will ETH realise that wingers are in United's DNA?).They should both start, certainly ahead of Rashford and maybe instead of Casemiro who has been poor this season. It would help if others moved off the ball like Rasmus does...
We controlled huge swathes of the game but we simply don't work opposition keepers enough and all to often the final ball in is disappointing, but we were much much better than against Palace. We simply have to win - and win big - against Sheffield United and beat Copenhagen but I fear for the result when City arrive at OT at the end of the month, once again, the score could be anything they want.
But there were some good/very good performances: Dalot was good, Evans was very good and Hojilund was fantastic again. Erkisen did OK when he came on and I've been saying here for ages that there's a good player in Scotty trying to get out: he'll never be Paul Scholes but he's United through and through and plays with the passion we used to show under SAF, no wonder he's been at the club since he was five.
On the downside, although he didn''t make any telling mistakes, Maguire is still just a lump, Fernandes isn't a wide player and rashford is as poor now as he was brilliant after the World Cup last season. Martial continues to look a clown.
Garnacho, particularly, and Antony made a huge difference when they came on, adding pace and width (when will ETH realise that wingers are in United's DNA?).They should both start, certainly ahead of Rashford and maybe instead of Casemiro who has been poor this season. It would help if others moved off the ball like Rasmus does...
We controlled huge swathes of the game but we simply don't work opposition keepers enough and all to often the final ball in is disappointing, but we were much much better than against Palace. We simply have to win - and win big - against Sheffield United and beat Copenhagen but I fear for the result when City arrive at OT at the end of the month, once again, the score could be anything they want.
I don't think it was a good enough performance personally.
Let's been honest, Brentford were poor and offered nothing. There's always the 'plucky, hard-working, well-organised underdog' narrative about a team who are leading at OT but they were rubbish. Average side, filled with average players, without many ideas.
All that being said, we never threatened them once until the last few minutes of the game and gave them opportunities to counter, which they weren't good enough to take.
Clearly I'm delighted we won, but I have to be consistent. I said before the season that I was less bothered about results and more bothered about performances. Can we control games? Can we stifle opponents? Can we dominate territory? Can we keep the ball? Can we create chances? Can we avoid giving away chances?
For me, Brentford at home, they're missing their star man...it wasn't a good enough performance.
We improved for Antony, Eriksen and Garnacho coming on, and I think that needs to be a lesson learnt for ETH. We MUST have two proper wide players. We can't be afraid to drop Casemiro or Rashford.
Let's been honest, Brentford were poor and offered nothing. There's always the 'plucky, hard-working, well-organised underdog' narrative about a team who are leading at OT but they were rubbish. Average side, filled with average players, without many ideas.
All that being said, we never threatened them once until the last few minutes of the game and gave them opportunities to counter, which they weren't good enough to take.
Clearly I'm delighted we won, but I have to be consistent. I said before the season that I was less bothered about results and more bothered about performances. Can we control games? Can we stifle opponents? Can we dominate territory? Can we keep the ball? Can we create chances? Can we avoid giving away chances?
For me, Brentford at home, they're missing their star man...it wasn't a good enough performance.
We improved for Antony, Eriksen and Garnacho coming on, and I think that needs to be a lesson learnt for ETH. We MUST have two proper wide players. We can't be afraid to drop Casemiro or Rashford.
We were pretty awful again but good character at the end I guess.
Hope Garnacho, Anthony and Mctominay start against Sheff Utd.
Rashford deserves to be dropped. So does Bruno tbh but will settle for Rashford.
Hope Garnacho, Anthony and Mctominay start against Sheff Utd.
Rashford deserves to be dropped. So does Bruno tbh but will settle for Rashford.
What a car crash of a post.
What an awesome ending - there's still some fighting spirit there. Bailed out by two overtime goals, and saved by McTominay and Maguire, of all people. Magnificent!
The bigger and longer picture is still there though - we are basically a mid-table team, having to scrap to the max to eke out wins against lower half teams, and lose when we play better sides. What's so weird about watching this is how different it is to earlier troubled streaks. Usually that's been about running hot and cold - awful for stretches, then great. We're not awful now, we're just mediocre, consistently.
And in a way that makes sense, too. We're really struggling to create much offensively, which is exactly like last season. Same problem. Only now we're not being bailed out by Rashford knocking them in at a rate of nearly one per game. But instead of a defence that was rock solid (except when they weren't, in which case we tended to lose by 5, 6, 7 goals) and a midfield that controlled games (again, except when they didn't), we now have little midfield control and a defence that buckles and gives up bad goals almost every game. Which is down to basically three things: The decline of Casemiro and Eriksen, an injury-ravaged defence and (at times) questionable goaltending. That's enough to turn us from a top 4 team to a mid-table side.
One positive that is kind of drowned out by the ongoing drama is that Dalot seems to be finding his feet. I didn't see the Galatasaray game, but at least he's been excellent for the last two PL games, as good as I've seen him in a United shirt really. Bruno had a good game too, and I didn't think Rashford played badly. Amrabat grew well into the game, and was much better than he was against Palace last time. On the more okayish side; Højlund, Garnacho and the rest of the defence (apart from the goal). Casemiro and Mount had weak games. Antony started well, but as seems to be his habit, then rapidly lined up a series of bad involvements. Not much to note from Martial.
The bigger and longer picture is still there though - we are basically a mid-table team, having to scrap to the max to eke out wins against lower half teams, and lose when we play better sides. What's so weird about watching this is how different it is to earlier troubled streaks. Usually that's been about running hot and cold - awful for stretches, then great. We're not awful now, we're just mediocre, consistently.
And in a way that makes sense, too. We're really struggling to create much offensively, which is exactly like last season. Same problem. Only now we're not being bailed out by Rashford knocking them in at a rate of nearly one per game. But instead of a defence that was rock solid (except when they weren't, in which case we tended to lose by 5, 6, 7 goals) and a midfield that controlled games (again, except when they didn't), we now have little midfield control and a defence that buckles and gives up bad goals almost every game. Which is down to basically three things: The decline of Casemiro and Eriksen, an injury-ravaged defence and (at times) questionable goaltending. That's enough to turn us from a top 4 team to a mid-table side.
One positive that is kind of drowned out by the ongoing drama is that Dalot seems to be finding his feet. I didn't see the Galatasaray game, but at least he's been excellent for the last two PL games, as good as I've seen him in a United shirt really. Bruno had a good game too, and I didn't think Rashford played badly. Amrabat grew well into the game, and was much better than he was against Palace last time. On the more okayish side; Højlund, Garnacho and the rest of the defence (apart from the goal). Casemiro and Mount had weak games. Antony started well, but as seems to be his habit, then rapidly lined up a series of bad involvements. Not much to note from Martial.
Listening to Peter Schmeichel on Onana's diving technique for shots along the ground, which seems to be one of him going high rather than low, then that is going to be a weakness for the opposition to exploit. Add this to Rashford seeming to believe if runs fast enough he can bulldoze his way through 3 or 4 defenders, then it seems we are in trouble both up front and at the back.
Both 'problem's were on display again yesterday, but fortunately we had super -sub McTominay to come on and save the day... who knows we just might have our very own version of David Fairclough (super-sub)* and boy will we need him!
*(for those under 45, look up Liverpool's 'super-sub' 70's/80's)
Both 'problem's were on display again yesterday, but fortunately we had super -sub McTominay to come on and save the day... who knows we just might have our very own version of David Fairclough (super-sub)* and boy will we need him!
*(for those under 45, look up Liverpool's 'super-sub' 70's/80's)
Brentford weren‘t awful, they were very good in fact. They are taken points off of big teams (beat Cheaty twice last year). It is not some pub team that gets destroyed regularly.
We played well mostly, except for the suicidal give away goal. Good pressing and we stayed composed and organized after we got behind.
We worked hard all game and the fans were unbelievable this match.
As the game goes on, our bad luck seemed not to have run out, and Brentford happily time wasting on every opportunity.
We have a lot of work to do, but this win means so much. It will boost performances of the players, I’m thinking primarily of Onana and Rashford who need more confidence.
We need to keep going in the same direction, improving our defensive game and working more on attacking patterns. No change of style please.
There were a lot of give and go’s which I think is a way forward. Hojlund, Mount, Bruno, Martial, Antony all are good in small spaces. It gets us away from passing it around the box and into it more often.
We played well mostly, except for the suicidal give away goal. Good pressing and we stayed composed and organized after we got behind.
We worked hard all game and the fans were unbelievable this match.
As the game goes on, our bad luck seemed not to have run out, and Brentford happily time wasting on every opportunity.
We have a lot of work to do, but this win means so much. It will boost performances of the players, I’m thinking primarily of Onana and Rashford who need more confidence.
We need to keep going in the same direction, improving our defensive game and working more on attacking patterns. No change of style please.
There were a lot of give and go’s which I think is a way forward. Hojlund, Mount, Bruno, Martial, Antony all are good in small spaces. It gets us away from passing it around the box and into it more often.
Oh, come on. Bruno had a pretty good game despite being stuck out on the right for most of it, and it's not like we have better options.
Nice to see Thomas Frank on the caf.
Disagree to be honest. We now do have other options. If they're better is a matter of opinion but they're definitely realistic options.
For RW we have Bruno, Mount, Anthony, Garnacho, Rashford, Pellistri to be considered.
For number 10 we have Bruno, Mount, Eriksen, Mctominay to be considered.
Personally I'd like to see a midfield and front line of Amrabat, Mctom, Eriksen, Garnacho, Anthony and Hojlund...... Will never happen but I think that's the players that currently deserve a start.
The knock on Rashford for trying too difficult dribbles is really getting a bit ridiculous. People seem to forget how many of his crucial involvements and goals come from successful challenges that most attackers would not even try. You can always debate how much is too much, but this is not "a problem" - on the contrary it's a very rare strength. Another aspect of this that tends to get overlooked is how often he actually succeeds with his take-ons, which is more often than nearly all of his peers.
Disagree, on what basis? Are you paying as much attention to the numerous creative contributions that succeed as you are to that small handful of wayward passes? Because there were a lot more of the former than the latter yesterday. None of the other 10s have delivered a single performance remotely as influential or good as Bruno's yesterday, for the whole of this season. Not once. And that wasn't even a particularly good one, by his standards. It's bleeding self-evident that he is a much better option than any of them for that position, which is where he should be playing.
We all know about the makeshift back line and the dodgy keeper, so conceding only one goal is decent enough defensively given the circumstances. But where we were woeful — again this season — is in attack.
Yes of course we produced two goals at the death and won the game but we were toothless in attack for 93 minutes against a very mediocre opponent. Game raising or not, we should never be desperate in the 94th minute against this kind of opponent.
Yes of course we produced two goals at the death and won the game but we were toothless in attack for 93 minutes against a very mediocre opponent. Game raising or not, we should never be desperate in the 94th minute against this kind of opponent.
No, it isn't, I like Rashford too, on his game he is the best striker we have had in recent times, but senselessly trying to bulldozer your way through 3 or sometimes 4 defenders in not the mark of a great player or even an intelligent one!. His rate of success last year was the best it's been for some time, but guess what, all opposing coaches watch these games (or the videos) and they realise that the way Rashford plays and his reluctance to change his approach, means they have a way to stop him, and they do, both from scoring and/or laying it off at the right time.
Nobody (I know) doubts Rashford's commitment to United, but his pointing to his head last season now takes on a different significance, his 'single-minded' one track approach worked last year, this year the opposition has wised-up, and it doesn't... time for a change of plan Marcus!
Disagree on the basis that I think Bruno has been really poor this season and I think we might be better trying another option.
As I said in my first post though, I'm not absolutely desperate for Bruno to be dropped as he does have some good faith in the bag, unlike other players.
@ Justsomebloke. In what way was Bruno good or influential yesterday? He was displaying his recent bad form again. He is making so
many wrong decisions at the moment. The worst is taking free kicks near the box. The corners are abysmal as well. It´s weird. I really like him on form, but he has to go on the bench for a while. Casemiro as well. Onana can´t be benched yet, but he is making it harder and harder for himself.
Amrabat-Mount-Eriksen is the way to go in midfield at the moment. Amrabat-McT--Eriksen with Mount on the right might be an option. McT and Mejri should be in front of Bruno/Case for the subs.
...........................................................Onana (sigh).........................................................................
Dalot ........................Maguire (!)....................................Varane....................................Lindelof (sigh)
.....................................Mount..........................................Amrabat.......................................................
.................................................................Eriksen...........................................................................
................. Rashford................................Højlund..........................................Garnacho.........................
That should be the team for now. Anthony, Mejri, McT and Evans are first subs. Bruno, Casemiro and Martial the next.
many wrong decisions at the moment. The worst is taking free kicks near the box. The corners are abysmal as well. It´s weird. I really like him on form, but he has to go on the bench for a while. Casemiro as well. Onana can´t be benched yet, but he is making it harder and harder for himself.
Amrabat-Mount-Eriksen is the way to go in midfield at the moment. Amrabat-McT--Eriksen with Mount on the right might be an option. McT and Mejri should be in front of Bruno/Case for the subs.
...........................................................Onana (sigh).........................................................................
Dalot ........................Maguire (!)....................................Varane....................................Lindelof (sigh)
.....................................Mount..........................................Amrabat.......................................................
.................................................................Eriksen...........................................................................
................. Rashford................................Højlund..........................................Garnacho.........................
That should be the team for now. Anthony, Mejri, McT and Evans are first subs. Bruno, Casemiro and Martial the next.
I was going to comment that our offensive troubles just carried over from last season and has been a problem throughout EtHs tenure. But then I checked the season stats for the most direct expression of offense creation (non-penalty expected goals), which just raised all sorts of questions really:
npxg/90
18/19 (Jose/Ole, 5th place): 1.37 (5th best)
19/20 (Ole, 3rd place): 1.35 (6th best)
20/21 (Ole, 2nd place): 1.35 (6th best)
21/22 (Ole/Rangnick, 6th place): 1.37 (6th best)
22/23 (EtH, 3rd place): 1.72 (6th best)
23/24 (EtH): 1.49 (11th best)
Important note; Premier League scoring has risen sharply these last two seasons, with a new record set in 22/23. Relative to other PL teams our offense creation is significantly worse this season than in any of the previous 5 seasons. Although in absolute terms it's better than in four of those seasons.
Yeah, my point was, on what basis do you consider Bruno to have been poor? I don't think he's been poor, I know that if you watch attentively he's almost always among the players who rack up the most positive involvements, and his stats tell the same story. So unless the reason is that you're not really watching his game attentively and are missing a lot of what he does, I'm wondering what exactly you're basing that assessment on?
We started playing better after Garnacho and Antony.. when we started going wide .. Mount, Bruno on the wings will not work ..
Even Rashford has a tendency of going narrow..
Maybe drop mount, casemiro
Play armabat, (Hannibal)
And go back to Bruno as a 10 will work
Even Rashford has a tendency of going narrow..
Maybe drop mount, casemiro
Play armabat, (Hannibal)
And go back to Bruno as a 10 will work
His creative passing, mainly - had the ball the most, hit the most crosses, had the most shot-creating actions, the most progressive passing other than the defenders and goalkeeper, two good shots, as well as the top notch pass that Casemiro knocked down for Højlund to miss in the first half. Those are three of the four chances United had before 90 minutes that had an xG or post-shot xG of more than 0.1. And of course, the cross to Maguire for the second goal. He and Dalot were really the standouts in terms of offensive contribution, attentive eye test and stats both tells that story. Despite the fact he played half the game out of position. Not a great game by any stretch of imagination, but certainly a good one. He only took two corners, can't recall either of them being bad.
If you think any of Mount, Hannibal, Eriksen or McTominay have had even one game this season that is remotely on the same level, you really need to watch games more attentively. Hannibal and McTominay contributes very little on the ball. Eriksen does, but not as much and not nearly with as much impact as Bruno does. To regard any of them as better options than Bruno at #10 at this point is not even a disussion worth having, it's completely absurd.
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@Niall's fault
Pity about your post. It contains some sensible parts, but you felt you had to disparage players who did really well on the day. I agree with you about McT
You are right
and just which ones are those? enlighten us... maybe martial? or do you really think maguire was good?
@justsomebloke
Nothing absurd about that. Stats are stats, but it is easy to have the best creative stats of the midfielders, when you are playing every minute in the most forward position. Bruno HAS been played out of position, but still in the front four. Hannibal, McT, Mount and Eriksen have all played less, and with much more defensive duties than Bruno. Hannibal is no creator. He is pure energy. McT is competing with Casemiro for a pivot spot, not for the 10. Mount has been better than Bruno in the last games and the creativity levels was upped a couple of levels as soon as Eriksen entered the pitch against Galatasaray.It went down again, when he had to carry part of the Casemiro-load after the send off, but that was not his fault. I can´t show you a stat to prove my point as long as EtH won´t give the dane a go at 10. I just see a Bruno (whom I actually really like) in the worst form ever. Christian Eriksen is in way better form than our captain right now, and he is still playing 10 for Denmark. Playing Eriksen in the pivot is like playing Bruno on the wing. He can do it, but he won´t shine. Eriksen shold have a go at his real position.
Nothing absurd about that. Stats are stats, but it is easy to have the best creative stats of the midfielders, when you are playing every minute in the most forward position. Bruno HAS been played out of position, but still in the front four. Hannibal, McT, Mount and Eriksen have all played less, and with much more defensive duties than Bruno. Hannibal is no creator. He is pure energy. McT is competing with Casemiro for a pivot spot, not for the 10. Mount has been better than Bruno in the last games and the creativity levels was upped a couple of levels as soon as Eriksen entered the pitch against Galatasaray.It went down again, when he had to carry part of the Casemiro-load after the send off, but that was not his fault. I can´t show you a stat to prove my point as long as EtH won´t give the dane a go at 10. I just see a Bruno (whom I actually really like) in the worst form ever. Christian Eriksen is in way better form than our captain right now, and he is still playing 10 for Denmark. Playing Eriksen in the pivot is like playing Bruno on the wing. He can do it, but he won´t shine. Eriksen shold have a go at his real position.
Yesterdays late late show all the more sweeter now after West ham, Newcastle, Brighton and Liverpool dropped points.
Obviously I am comparing stats on a per 90 basis, so much of that does not apply. For my part I think Eriksen have been pretty consistently poor this season, and I am honestly at a loss to see that Mount has had much of an impact in any game he has appeared.
Is Martial's goal offside?
It looks to me like the ball is passed backwards by Garnacho. I don't think you can be offside to a ball that isn't forward?
It looks to me like the ball is passed backwards by Garnacho. I don't think you can be offside to a ball that isn't forward?
Interesting take. It looked clearly offside at the time, but if in fact Martial was actually behind the ball then he could not have been offside. But we can’t assume VAR officials would be familiar with this foundational pillar of the offside rule.
This aspect of our performances under ETH deserves more attention here.
I could be wrong but I thought Ajax under ETH were a juggernaut in the CL. Maybe it was all lightning in a bottle stuff but there was, allegedly, a distinct pattern of play that powered a ferocious attack. At United, our attack has been anything but ferocious. The one thing you could count on last season, with a few notable exceptions, was solid defense. Now we are bereft of a solid attack AND a solid defense. We downgraded at keeper and with the money we spent on Onana we could have brought in KMJ to shore up a back line that needed a new CB in the knowledge that Varane and Martinez are injury prone.
A shame we’re run by clowns.
To be clear. martial is forward of Garnacho when the ball is played.
But
Garnacho pulls the ball backwards, you can see it from the left sided camera.
Martial reaches back to play the ball with his left.
That's why I'm not sure.
Aye, the most joy and emotions I’ve felt for this team in a long time. Hoping it’s a turning point but most likely just another false dawn. But yeah, I’ve enjoyed it and tried steering clear of the negativity on here - least for a few days!
Pretty sure it's the position of the player relative to the ball that matters, rather than the direction of the ball.
I do think Maguire was good. He made the assist for the winning goal and played reasonably well overall. No need to hurl insults at our players
You might be right.
I am sure I have seen a situation where a ball was pulled back and a player anticipated a far post cross was in an offside position but ran back and scored and it was given because the ball never travelled forwards.
Man of the Match
Runners-up
-
5%
Harry Maguire
-
3%
Rasmus Hojlund
-
1%
Sofyan Amrabat
-
1%
Jonny Evans
-
1%
Diogo Dalot
-
1%
Andre Onana
-
1%
Christian Eriksen
Player Ratings
Total Average Rating
Highest Rated Player
Lowest Rated Player
Compiled from 298 ratings.
Score Predictions
151,80,24
- Man Utd win
- Brentford win
- Draw
Detailed Results
- 21% Man Utd 2:1 Brentford
- 14% Man Utd 2:0 Brentford
- 11% Man Utd 1:2 Brentford
- 7% Man Utd 1:0 Brentford
- 7% Man Utd 1:1 Brentford
- 7% Man Utd 3:0 Brentford
- 6% Man Utd 3:1 Brentford
- 6% Man Utd 0:2 Brentford
- 5% Man Utd 0:1 Brentford
- 4% Man Utd 1:3 Brentford
- 2% Man Utd 2:2 Brentford
- 2% Man Utd 0:9 Brentford
- 1% Man Utd 4:0 Brentford
- 1% Man Utd 4:1 Brentford
- 1% Man Utd 0:3 Brentford
- 1% Man Utd 0:5 Brentford
- 1% Man Utd 3:2 Brentford
- 1% Man Utd 2:4 Brentford
- 0% Man Utd 0:0 Brentford
- 0% Man Utd 0:7 Brentford
- 0% Man Utd 2:3 Brentford
- 0% Man Utd 5:1 Brentford
- 0% Man Utd 0:4 Brentford
- 0% Man Utd 5:2 Brentford
- 0% Man Utd 9:7 Brentford
- 0% Man Utd 0:6 Brentford
Match Stats
- Man Utd
- Brentford
- Possession
- 64% 36%
- Shots
- 21 11
- Shots on Target
- 8 3
- Corners
- 7 5
- Fouls
- 10 17
Man Utd Lineup
-
-
replaced by Anthony Martial
-
-
-
-
replaced by Scott McTominay
-
replaced by Antony
-
-
replaced by Christian Eriksen
-
-
replaced by Alejandro Garnacho
