[Marwood]

Even so, there were other options, Eriksen higher and Fred or Mct next to Casemiro. It's clear that he gave VDB a chance and he failed to deliver, like always.
It's clear that he offers nothing, and his level is way below the PL. Just a bad transfer like many others.

Yeah agree but framing it as blind faith and Beek being the player who'll be ETH's downfall? It's nothing like that.

He's barely given him a kick. Two starts in half a season.

 

[Lux Thunder]

As long as I agree with most posters that lack of rotation the squad from ETH caught us unfortunately before WC in a game where a win would be massive for us, most disturbing thing about yesterday was seeing Ronaldo as a team captain. A player who was suspended for his misbehavior a few weeks ago was selected for a captain - does this club's captain armband mean anything to anyone ffs ? By a slight chance, but maybe that also influenced our poor performance and I certainly didn't expect that from ETH who I thought to have some high standards on and off the pitch.

As for the game, Villa outplayed us through the lines too easily with VDB and Ronaldo nonexistent and Eriksen who also does little work out of possession. Like all of us, I was expecting Fred or McTominay to start alongside Casemiro and was surprised when that change didn't even happen at halftime when we were undeservedly just one goal down and could have a go to save the match. Lower league mistake by Lindelof for the first goal, when you are dragged out of position either you are pressing and winning the ball back or committing a foul - by no means you should let play goes around you with the gap you left in the defensive line, you will get punished for that.

 

[TMDaines]

Interesting:

 

[Zetrio2002]

The aim is to lose now so that villa will be relaxed on Friday and we beat them in the efl cup on 11 Nov.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Fred would have been a much better option over Donny. He or Eriksen could have played the #10 role much better than Donny. Let's hope that was his trial for the remainder of the season. Should not be anywhere near the PL squad. Sell or loan in January if there are any takers.

Ronaldo, I have no words. Such a drop off in a career. You would not expect this from someone with his physique and accolades but it's clear as day. He's done as a top level player. He's delusional if he thinks any CL team is going to want him. He'd have to offer to play for free.

Hopefully Antony and Sancho are fit next week and Martial can start a match.

What i think really fecked Ronaldo up was him missing the pre-season. He Lost that rythm and his body i struggling to adjust to new demands

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Interesting:

Surely its up to our players to keep an eye on this and question the ref?
Yes I know the ref should get it right, but everything needs to be checked.
I mean the lines on the pitch are set at 6 yards, so its obvious and should be easy for a player in the wall to police this.

 

[Zed 101]

I think it is reasonable to expect that in ETH first season we will have inconsistency, look how pool were under Klopp, ETH is not coming in to the unit of players that Man City and Chelsea have had sitting there for new managers

We did not play atrociously yesterday but the gaps in our squad depth were clearly exposed

Bruno was a big miss

VDB is out of his depth, was also at Everton, kinda feel bad for the guy but he doesn't have a future at the top level in English Football (IMO)

Either Ronaldo is done or needs the entire team set up to supply him

 

[Matt851]

What i think really fecked Ronaldo up was him missing the pre-season. He Lost that rythm and his body i struggling to adjust to new demands

Well that's his fault and whatever the reason he looks abysmal and should be a sub at best. Lack of options aside I don't think there is anyway he gets all the minutes he has in recent games if it wasn't for all the drama around him. Looks somewhat like eth has capitulated. Given how some of the players acted last season it wouldn't be suprising if that came back to bite him

 

[justsomebloke]

Irrelevant result. The upward trend is good but we were always going to have bumps and lose to poor teams. Especially with the schedule and injuries.

Onto the next one.

I see it rather the opposite way - this was the most deflating defeat of the season. Because there is no longer an upwards trend - that came as the third straight game of declining performances, which again comes on the heels of a fairly protracted period where it looked like the revival was on, with a lot of fundamental things working very well.

West Ham was the first game since City where we were looking less good than previously, across the board really. Against Real Sociedad, our attacking game reverted back to the abysmal level we had during our first recovery (Southampton, Leicester etc) and our midfield control was gone. Yesterday, defensive solidity collapsed too.

In short - we're pretty much back where we were after the City game. Progress has not proven sustainable, so for now the revival is not on after all. Maybe we can get back on track, only that's not going to be until after the World Cup. Hopefully we can make a start at least against Fulham. With our current squad depth, an extra round in the EL and two deferred PL games in an already gruelling schedule I would not shed a tear if we take the opportunity to crash out of the Carabao in midweek.

What happened? Injuries and suspensions played a significant part, obviously. And it's hard not to note the fact that Ronaldo started all three of those games and performed feebly in all of them, although it is also hard to imagine that this could have such a huge effect in itself. And none worse than the game for which he was named captain. Maybe that says something.

 

[Steve Bruce]

I could see this result coming. I'm not as down hearted or hysterical as some on here. We'll get some bad results on the way, we'll get some bad performances along the way and we'll get some weird and wonderful decisions from our manager. This is the VERY START of the rebuilding process, it takes a bit of patience and it also takes the fans to support the team, rather than throwing their rattle out of the pram at the first sight of adversity.

Our squad might look big on paper but it really isn't. We depend on a small core of players who have little backup if they are gone.

In the front line we have 2 strikers, 1 is injury prone and already has missed most of the season in Martial, the other is turning 38. If our recruitment was better and we made signings at the start of the window instead of the end, maybe we'd have saved enough to bring in another forward, Glazernomics in full swing here.

So straight away we have a squad shortage up front.

On the wings we have 3 senior players to cover the 2 wings, Rashford, Sancho & Anthony. Rashford and Anthony have had a decent start to the season and will hopefully get better as time goes on, but Sancho hasn't shown up yet this season. We can't rely on youngsters like Elanga & Garnacho to fill this void, so we could do with 1 other wide forward.

In midfield, you have Bruno at 10, when he's unavailable VDB doesn't see up to it. If Ericson or Casemiro gets injured/suspended the drop off is massive to Fred or McTominay. We really could do with another quality CM.

In defense, Dalot is playing every game because we don't have a suitable backup. If Martinez or Varane is unavailable we have to suffer Lindelof or Maguire who are far too slow and it upsets the whole team as we have to sit deeper to compensate. Varane being missing cannot be understated enough. We really need to get rid of one of Maguire or Lindelof and bring in a quick CB to backup Martinez and Varane.

We lose any of Casemiro, Bruno, Ericson, Varane,Martinez, Anthony or Dalot we haven't adequate cover to come in, the drop off is so substantial. And the reason why i haven't included Ronaldo or Martial is because I don't believe we can hang our hat on either of them, one through being past his best and the other is his fitness record. IMO we need 2 strikers and Martial as back up & Ronaldo to go.

The consequences of everything I've said in this long winded post is that the team are knackered. The last 2 games before Villa you can see the players have slowed down and getting leggy. The Villa match was just the perfect storm to expose this with a new manager, playing at home and having a full week to prepare for the game while united had a tough game in the Europa.

In January we need to bring in at least 2 players, CM & Striker (we can't realistically expect to fix everything) to give us a good chance at top 4. But I don't think we'll do anything significant in regards to incomings.

 

[Offside]

Yeah I just feel despite some good performances we have ridden our luck in recent games and this was coming. The games are coming thick and fast and a bad result was on the way. A few injuries to our team and the need for rotation leads us to bringing in some absolute jokers. When you then consider the new manager bounce they were on, I had a feeling we’d lose.

Onto the next one.

 

[justsomebloke]

I could see this result coming. I'm not as down hearted or hysterical as some on here. We'll get some bad results on the way, we'll get some bad performances along the way and we'll get some weird and wonderful decisions from our manager. This is the VERY START of the rebuilding process, it takes a bit of patience and it also takes the fans to support the team, rather than throwing their rattle out of the pram at the first sight of adversity.

Sure, but this wasn't an isolated occurrence but the third game in a row of worryingly declining performances. Of course it takes patience, and there is no reason to question the project. However, it undeniably puts us back when we manage to reach a certain level, and then prove unable to sustain it. Makes me think we're not a viable top 4 side yet. Not long ago, I rather thought we were.

 

[Solius]

I see it rather the opposite way - this was the most deflating defeat of the season. Because there is no longer an upwards trend - that came as the third straight game of declining performances, which again comes on the heels of a fairly protracted period where it looked like the revival was on, with a lot of fundamental things working very well.

West Ham was the first game since City where we were looking less good than previously, across the board really. Against Real Sociedad, our attacking game reverted back to the abysmal level we had during our first recovery (Southampton, Leicester etc) and our midfield control was gone. Yesterday, defensive solidity collapsed too.

In short - we're pretty much back where we were after the City game. Progress has not proven sustainable, so for now the revival is not on after all. Maybe we can get back on track, only that's not going to be until after the World Cup. Hopefully we can make a start at least against Fulham. With our current squad depth, an extra round in the EL and two deferred PL games in an already gruelling schedule I would not shed a tear if we take the opportunity to crash out of the Carabao in midweek.

What happened? Injuries and suspensions played a significant part, obviously. And it's hard not to note the fact that Ronaldo started all three of those games and performed feebly in all of them, although it is also hard to imagine that this could have such a huge effect in itself. And none worse than the game for which he was named captain. Maybe that says something.

Yeah we've struggled due to the depth of squad and injuries. We're never going to play well with Ronaldo up front and until we get a good striker and some class in depth we'll always lose the odd match like this. We've seen however that if the manager gets what he needs he can do very good things with this team. The overall trend is still upwards even if it sometimes drops down.

 

[justsomebloke]

Yeah we've struggled due to the depth of squad and injuries. We're never going to play well with Ronaldo up front and until we get a good striker and some class in depth we'll always lose the odd match like this. We've seen however that if the manager gets what he needs he can do very good things with this team. The overall trend is still upwards even if it sometimes drops down.

Yeah I would have said that too as recently as a few days ago. But three bad ones in a row, that's no longer a blip I think. Of course, we won two of them but at this stage it's more about how well the different parts of our game are functioning.

 

[Elcabron]

To be fair I'd give Ten Hag a bye on fecking up the odd game given the mess he's inherited and how well he's done with it so far.

Not that I don't agree with some of this, but then I also think his hands are tied a bit by having a limited squad. I don't think it matters who you pick out of Maguire and Lindelof for example. Either is completely incompetent. If he'd picked Fred or Mctominay and we'd lost that would be used against him. Up front he's already having to play an 18 year old due to injuries. Martial I'm guessing wasn't fit enough to start either. He's been lumbered with the Ronaldo situation.

He also clearly has standards, a way he wants to play and things he expects from players, which means if certain people aren't getting picked I'm willing to accept it might be for a reason.

Also don't think we were that horrendous tactically or played completely awfully. The first and third goals were down to Lindelof defending like a scared child and if you take those moments out we probably go on to win. For me just showed the issue we have with squad depth and also highlighted that our biggest problem last season was at CB amd not CM. We get one injury there and the replacement (both of who were first choice last season) is someone who you know will cost you the game if they have to do anything.

Yes agree overall, I'm more than happy with ETH this far but the decisions yesterday in terms of starting DVB and then bringing off Shaw and Garnacho were strange. As was making Ronaldo captain given his terrible form and antics.

Fair enough re Lindelof and Maguire but I thought Maguire warranted inclusion given his performance v West Ham and maybe he wouldn't have made the two mistakes yesterday that Lindelof did.

Slightly concerning given the strange decisions in Spain the other night as well - throwing Maguire on up front.

Im also not sure that I really agree either with the view we lack squad depth, for instance Lindelof and Maguire are our back up centre backs and would probably be starting for Spurs, possibly even Liverpool at this stage alongside VVD. We had other options in midfield yesterday but ETH chose not to use them. He could also have started Rashford up front and maybe Elanga out wide. We are definitely light in options however for striker and right back but I think we are fairly well covered every where else

Hopefully a minor blip and we are still well placed for top four finish which is the target.....at least for me.

 

[Solius]

Yeah I would have said that too as recently as a few days ago. But three bad ones in a row, that's no longer a blip I think. Of course, we won two of them but at this stage it's more about how well the different parts of our game are functioning.

Yeah we've been without Antony, Varane and a good striker. Unfortunately the club is still in a position where we're reliant on our first choice team being fit. We need depth in certain positions and that won't happen until next season at the earliest.

We still won two of those games despite that, and we've had some great results and performances this season. I'm happy so far and don't expect much this season. Anything we do get is a bonus.

 

[justsomebloke]

Yeah we've been without Antony, Varane and a good striker. Unfortunately the club is still in a position where we're reliant on our first choice team being fit. We need depth in certain positions and that won't happen until next season at the earliest.

We still won two of those games despite that, and we've had some great results and performances this season. I'm happy so far and don't expect much this season. Anything we do get is a bonus.

That's probably a helpful attitude. I am suffering because I allowed myself to get persuaded that in terms of team cohesion and defence and midfield control, we had already turned the corner. More the fool me, I suppose.

Nick Hornby was right: "The natural state of the football fan is one of bitter disappointment".

 

[Solius]

That's probably a helpful attitude. I am suffering because I allowed myself to get persuaded that in terms of team cohesion and defence and midfield control, we had already turned the corner. More the fool me, I suppose.

Nick Hornby was right: "The natural state of the football fan is one of bitter disappointment".

Yeah after last season I'm just happy to see the team together and playing well most games. If we'd lost this game then I'd probably have been more upset but it's a bump in the road towards something really good imo.

 

[Strelok]

We're never going to play well with Ronaldo up front

This has become a fact. Which makes me really wonder why ETH still starts Ronaldo. Like someone said in the Ronaldo thread by starting Ronaldo and moved Rashford to RW we made them both useless.

Why ETH just didn't drop Ronaldo and start Rashford as our #9 then play whoever on the right. You don't need to be a math genius to see that way we'd have only one useless player instead.

 

[Solius]

This has become a fact. Which makes me really wonder why ETH still starts Ronaldo. Like someone said in the Ronaldo thread by starting Ronaldo and moved Rashford to RW we made them both useless.

Why ETH just didn't drop Ronaldo and start Rashford as our #9 then play whoever on the right. You don't need to be a math genius to see that way we'd have only one useless player instead.

I guess this is the issue though.

Sancho - Injured
Antony - Injured
Bruno - Suspended

Do we have anyone else who can play out there? Anyone we shoved there would essentially just be there to pass it backwards.

Garnacho is left sided and it wouldn't be fair to ask him to play on the right in his first PL start. You'd want him to be comfortable. Ronaldo definitely can't play there. That leaves basically Rashford and Elanga. So he could've gone with Garnacho - Rashford - Elanga but I think we'd probably still have lost with that front three.

 

[Waynne]

I guess this is the issue though.

Sancho - Injured
Antony - Injured
Bruno - Suspended

Do we have anyone else who can play out there? Anyone we shoved there would essentially just be there to pass it backwards.

Garnacho is left sided and it wouldn't be fair to ask him to play on the right in his first PL start. You'd want him to be comfortable. Ronaldo definitely can't play there. That leaves basically Rashford and Elanga. So he could've gone with Garnacho - Rashford - Elanga but I think we'd probably still have lost with that front three.

I'd rather with Elanga on the right who will track back and provide defensive screening to our right back. Sometimes Its ok to just win ugly. Smash and grab when you're best setup is out injured.

Elanga may not have the quality but the work rate is there. Contrast to Ronaldo who's a passenger up front, Rashford inefective out on the right and Donny doing his best Casper impression.

All for playing people out of position just to accomodate a passed it 38 year old that couldn't hit a barn door from 5 yards out. The same 38 year old that refused to come on as a substitute not too long ago is also handed the captaincy. Just fecking baffling.

 

[Solius]

I'd rather with Elanga on the right who will track back and provide defensive screening to our right back.

He may not have the quality but the work rate is there. Contrast to Ronaldo who's a passenger up front, Rashford inefective out on the right and Donny doing his best Casper impression.

Playing people out of position just to accomodate a passed it 38 year old that couldn't hit a barn door from 5 yards out.

Hopefully Martial is back next match. Especially if he doesn't make the France squad, we can risk him because he's got no games until 26th December.

 

[Doracle]

I'd rather with Elanga on the right who will track back and provide defensive screening to our right back. Sometimes Its ok to just win ugly. Smash and grab when your best setup is out injured.

Elanga may not have the quality but the work rate is there. Contrast to Ronaldo who's a passenger up front, Rashford inefective out on the right and Donny doing his best Casper impression.

All for playing people out of position just to accomodate a passed it 38 year old that couldn't hit a barn door from 5 yards out. The same 38 year old that refused to come on as a substitute not too long ago is also handed the captaincy. Just fecking baffling.

I think most people would have gone with Fred or McT in midfield, with Eriksen playing a more advanced role and then the Garnacho, Rashford and Elanga front 3. It still wouldn’t be ideal but it would have added some extra steel in the midfield and more speed up front. I’d have fancied our chances of getting a result with that team, whereas I thought the one we sent out always looked problematic.

 

[Maticmaker]

He's got to change it. It's really not working atm. Today was perfect opportunity to try him in the 10 spot.

Yes, the gaps in front of the back four left by Casemiro and Eriksen who were trying to both prompt attacks and to fill the space in front of the back line were there to be exploited and Villa did that with a vengeance in the opening quarter. Lindelof and Martinez were getting pulled out of the back four to try to close the gap, leaving a space behind. At times the back four must have felt like the defenders at the Alamo facing Santa Anna's hordes.

Back to the drawing board Erik!

 

[Steve Bruce]

Sure, but this wasn't an isolated occurrence but the third game in a row of worryingly declining performances. Of course it takes patience, and there is no reason to question the project. However, it undeniably puts us back when we manage to reach a certain level, and then prove unable to sustain it. Makes me think we're not a viable top 4 side yet. Not long ago, I rather thought we were.

This season for me was never about top 4, it was about trying to get United heading in the right direction in playing style and giving us fans an idea where ETH wants us to go. I always felt that if we managed to get top 4 that's an unexpected bonus. I haven't changed that view. We're far from where we want to be, but IMO it's going to take 3-5 years to be competitive for titles etc.

It seems we have a good run everyone gets very excited but then we get a bad result we're piling on the manager and players. Last season was literally the worst season United have had in the premier league era. That doesn't change over night.

 

[Strelok]

So he could've gone with Garnacho - Rashford - Elanga but I think we'd probably still have lost with that front three.

We surely might have still lost but you can't deny we'd have a bigger chance coming out from that match with a positive result. Or at least looked much better than we were.

Tbh I've written this season off so results don't really matter to me. But the football does matter. We can lose ok but at least we should look like we're trying to go in the right direction. Playing with Ronaldo up top which destroys our pressing system is definitely not the right direction imo. And we were looking like we're on the right direction before his coming back in the side.

I've no problem with ETH got a match or two wrong and we lost. But I do hope he could learn from that and would drop Ronaldo next match. It's just simply impossible to play any sort of progressive pressing modern football with him.

 

[Solius]

We surely might have still lost but you can't deny we'd have a bigger chance coming out from that match with a positive result. Or at least looked much better than we were.

Tbh I've written this season off so results don't really matter to me. But the football does matter. We can lose ok but at least we should look like we're trying to go in the right direction. Playing with Ronaldo up top which destroys our pressing system is definitely not the right direction imo. And we were looking like we're on the right direction before his coming back in the side.

I've no problem with ETH got a match or two wrong and we lost. But I do hope he could learn from that and would drop Ronaldo next match. It's just simply impossible to play any sort of progressive pressing modern football with him.

Yeah I agree. Ronaldo shouldn't be playing for us anymore, so hopefully he moves in Jan.

 

[troylocker]

I was baffled by the lineup.

Why not play something like:

DDG
Dalot - Lindelof - Martinez - Shaw
Fred/McTom - Casemiro
Elanga/Rashford - Eriksen - Garnacho/Rashford
Ronaldo/Rashford

I know the injury situation is dire, but I think it's too risky starting an 18 year old with 1 minute of PL experience, Eriksen (who really lacks defensive qualities) in the middle of the park and Ronaldo (with the armband!?) up top. Rashford playing in his 3rd best position was also not a great decision. With Bruno out and away from home, it's really strange why Eriksen didn't start as #10 and someone better defensively didn't start next to Casemiro. It wasn't hard to predict that we would struggle not to get overrun in the midfield as long as they had fresh legs. Hopefully Martial is fit enough to start so we don't have to start Ronaldo again.

PS! When will we start being ready and focused from the first whistle. It's like we need 20 minutes to get used to matchtempo every game.

 

[Hammondo]

This has become a fact. Which makes me really wonder why ETH still starts Ronaldo. Like someone said in the Ronaldo thread by starting Ronaldo and moved Rashford to RW we made them both useless.

Why ETH just didn't drop Ronaldo and start Rashford as our #9 then play whoever on the right. You don't need to be a math genius to see that way we'd have only one useless player instead.

I think the better solution is to drop Rashford and play someone else there.

 

[TMDaines]

I think the better solution is to drop Rashford and play someone else there.

You think the best team yesterday would have been:

....... Ronaldo
Garnacho Donny (??? RW)

with Rashford on the bench?

 

[poleglass red]

we didn't start Casemiro when he first came due to not being match fit but also as McT was playing well. That thinking certainly didn't apply to Villa game, both Ronaldo who has been poor any time he has played this season, started, as did DVB, who was horrific in previous game. Rashford isn't ideal as central striker, but at the very least he gives us pace on the counter. Ronaldo threw a strop a few games ago and was punished for one game, since then, has he not only played but gets rewarded with captaincy for this game.I know with injuries we are light at centra forward, but playing with Ronaldo just doesn't work for us.His main plus is that he scores goals, right now he isn't, he's missing chances. Take that aspect away and there isn't a lot more to his game these days.

 

[Hammondo]

You think the best team yesterday would have been:

....... Ronaldo
Garnacho Donny (??? RW)

with Rashford on the bench?

Possibly.

 

[Counterfactual]

Anyone else think we're missing He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named? As a replacement for Ronaldo, as a sub, as competition for Sancho/Rashford/Ronaldo...

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Anyone else think we're missing He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named? As a replacement for Ronaldo, as a sub, as competition for Sancho/Rashford/Ronaldo...

We missed him big time. It was the case since Jan 22. We struggled to score since then. We need a good finisher badly.

 

[MadMike]

Bad game from us, but no panic from me. I could see it coming after the fixture congestion, the litany of absences and some of our recent performances. We were without Antony, Martial, Sancho, Fernandes and Varane. That's half the outfield team.

It's also worth mentioning Ten Hag is also learning. It's his first season here, he'll make mistakes. The two things I can criticise him for are:

1. For sticking Rashford to the right
2. For picking VDB over Fred or McTominay (which would have freed Eriksen to play at #10)

There are things United fans already know that the manager probably only now discovers. One is that Rashford works much better off the left with Shaw, that he is decent (not great) up top and that he is very rarely a threat from the right. Choosing to play Rashford (who is currently our most productive forward) on the right and letting Garnacho play on the left was a terrible mistake. Play Garnacho on the right and if he can't, then play Elanaga. Don't shift the one guy who scores goals at the moment, to his least favourable position thus neutering him.

As for the latter, we all know that VDB offers nothing. Fernandes' defensive work is often unnoticed and underrated, the guy puts in a serious shift. Missing him and playing Eriksen should mean another fighter in MF over VDB. I'd even prefer to see Iqbal over him.

The combination of picking VDB at #10 and Rashford for the right was costly. However if that would have saved the game, it's anyone's guess. We started badly and conceded twice in 10 mins. We were lethargic for large periods. It happens.

 

[croadyman]

Yep, and I don't blame Erik for trying it as we're short with injuries but the fact we persevered with what clearly wasn't working for over an hour is baffling.

DVB is done he needs to go in January and we need to buy a striker and only use Ronaldo off the bench if he stays.

Ronaldo needs to not play again

 

[Todd]

Go back to those highlights and watch how disinterested Casemiro looked on the two goals from open play, especially the second one. That's frustrating.

 

[Marwood]

Ronaldo needs to not play again

Keep seeing this.

Ronaldo not playing won't help unless there's somebody to replace him. Somebody better.

Players need to get themselves back on the pitch.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Surely its up to our players to keep an eye on this and question the ref?
Yes I know the ref should get it right, but everything needs to be checked.
I mean the lines on the pitch are set at 6 yards, so its obvious and should be easy for a player in the wall to police this.

Apparently the players did. Casemiro specifically. And the ref asked him to go back.

Also it seems the Ronaldo freekick was also taken with the wall farther than normal.

 

[Foxbatt]

Does anyone else think De Gea was beaten too easily on the free-kick?

Yes I think so too. I also think he was too easily beaten for the other goal too. The one Lindelof messed up at the halfway line.