We aren't ready to CHALLENGE yet
PL L FA Premier League
Arsenal 3:2 Manchester United
Post-match discussion
Sun, 22 January 2023
We aren't ready to CHALLENGE yet
We both have a point - Arsenal's dominance (by shots as well by xG) was especially strong in the final 30 minutes, but it was also very pronounced in the first half.
Arsenal (Minutes: shots (xG))
1-15: 4 (xG 0.30)
16-30: 3 (xG 0.59)
31-45: 5 (xG 0.21)
46-60: 1 (xG 0,02)
61-75: 5 (xG 0,50)
76-90: 7 (xG 1.46)
Man Utd:
1-15: 0 (xG 0.0)
16-30: 2 (xG 0.46)
31-45: 0 (xG 0.0)
46-60: 3 (xG 0,17)
61-75: 0 (xG 0,0)
76-90: 1 (xG 0,06)
Comparative (ARS-MUN):
1st Half: Shots 12-2 (6:1), xG 1.10-0.46 (2.4:1)
2nd Half: Shots 13-4 (3.3:1), xG 2.18-0.23 (9.5:1)
Arsenal vs. Manchester United Match Report – Sunday January 22, 2023 | FBref.com
How often have we seen the football improve almost instantly and have us beat nearly all of the top 6 with half of the season gone? Never. If you can't see the actual clear cut difference between ETH and our previous managers then I don't know how to help you.
Mourinho was always going to break down. Ole had us playing ok stuff but the foundations weren't there. LVG bored us to death.
Agree with @Pogue Mahone here, xG or whatever that is doesn't tell the story here. At the end of the first half I felt the sides were evenly matched based on what I saw. The reason we lost this one was down to three primary things:
1. Fatigue. Arsenal were more rested and we simply ran out of gas towards the end. ETH tried to bring more energy on the pitch with the Fred substitution, but it didn't work.
2. Casemiro. The moment he got the yellow card in the last game we lost this one IMO. The drop off in quality in our midfield is staggering when he is not there. We would not have been dominated to the extent we were in the second half with him in the pitch, nor would we have looked as vulnerable.
3. VAR. If some 50-50 decisions had gone our way things could have been different.
Overall there is lots to be positive about, yes we were "battered" in the last 20 minutes but it doesn't paint the whole picture or is a reflection of the entire game. The squad we have still has too many cracks to be able to cope with a loss like Casemiro and also deal with keeping players rested and fresh. On this latter point I would like to see ETH rotate more and make earlier substitutions. Casemiro should have been taken off in the last game to save him for this one for example.
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and that is away against a side that is being hailed as champions elect and has just broken 50 pts for half a season.
a last minute goal it took and over both games we did better (for whats it worth as a moral victory). and yet people are having a right whinge.
In case you missed it, Thierry Henry pretty much sang our praises and summed up the situation between the two teams quite well.
Agreed, a perfect summary. In no way were Arsenal dominant until the last 20 minutes when the difference in schedules started to take its toll.
Agree. The Manager is doing OK, but he made some poor calls this week. Coupled with the 'we're not ready to compete for the title' mentality still prevalent in the squad. Shaw comments about the team back peddling was classic given he spent most of the match doing exactly that faced with Saka. United team are about 3 years older than Arsenal, this lot will never be 'ready to compete'.
Disappointed to lose at the end after dropping points in injury time midweek but it’s clear to see where the upgrades in the squad are needed and I think ETH will know this too.
Id be surprised if any of AWB, Maguire, McTominay and Elanga are still about next season.
Eriksen has played too much football and doesn’t have the legs when we concede majority possession, the warning signs were there against City.
Id be surprised if any of AWB, Maguire, McTominay and Elanga are still about next season.
Eriksen has played too much football and doesn’t have the legs when we concede majority possession, the warning signs were there against City.
I still can't understand why Garnacho was rested. He should have come on around 65th min and we should have gone for goals.
Very disappointing we didn't take any points from the match. Subs should have done better and better subs should have been made. It would have been a different outcome had Case been in the lineup or we had a week of rest.
Some great goals scored and overall it was a very entertaining match. Not terribly fussed with the result at the end of the day. We're still in 4th and have traded points from both City and Arsenal. Arsenal have not played City yet and we had a draw against Newcastle.
Some great goals scored and overall it was a very entertaining match. Not terribly fussed with the result at the end of the day. We're still in 4th and have traded points from both City and Arsenal. Arsenal have not played City yet and we had a draw against Newcastle.
Ye exactly this. Now we were probably happy with the draw so explains our negativity. But it wasn't a close game in my view.
Arsenal had 24 shots, from low scoring chances (other than the Nketiah shot that hit DdG) what other clear cut chances did they have?
It’s a cumulative statistic so any team with more shots will ‘win’. Out of the 24 shots they had 12 were blocked shots, which would still add to the xG cumulative despite being blocked.
Using xG as a trend is the best use of the statistic (ie over the course of a season or a few games). For game by game insight and analysis, it has limited use.
Arsenal were playing at home and scored due to an mis hit from Odegaard which took a nick off Fred and went to the only Arsenal player in a position to score. There’s definitely a huge slice of luck which led to Arsenal winning and you get that luck from keeping the ball in our half and trying and trying again.
If the team was knackered, then why oh why didnt ETH make more subs? Only fred came on and garnacho apparently at the very end but i didnt even realized in the tv transmission
I think malacia, pellistri, garnacho and even fecking mcguire should had been given 5-10 minutes at least. It really backfired at the end
I think malacia, pellistri, garnacho and even fecking mcguire should had been given 5-10 minutes at least. It really backfired at the end
The 90min winner was a killer, Ramsgate makes a great save otherwise we go 2-3 . Small margins in big games, also injuries and suspension play a part in league season, we were without Casimero, Dalot Martial imo those 3 would have made a difference. It also highlights the need for players in summer.
Eth has been here 6mth or so, Arteta is in his 3rd season, and some on here are pissed we didn't win , I'm pissed but there is a bigger picture its improvement in a short time, and if we'd got 3pts v Palace it wouldn't have been a bitter pill.
Next game is now the biggest one then the next then the one after that, this result shouldn't derail a decent 6 mths .
Eth has been here 6mth or so, Arteta is in his 3rd season, and some on here are pissed we didn't win , I'm pissed but there is a bigger picture its improvement in a short time, and if we'd got 3pts v Palace it wouldn't have been a bitter pill.
Next game is now the biggest one then the next then the one after that, this result shouldn't derail a decent 6 mths .
The fact I’m yet to hear this properly addressed by pundits is what annoys me most. They throw us in to some ‘title race’ then when a vastly more settled squad scrape a 3-2 act surprised.
I hate Arsenal with a passion so I’m fuming but they better hope they win the league this year because give EtH a few more strings to his bow & yesterday doesn’t happen.
It’s not even a Casemiro specific issue, it’s having a McT to replace him. Once EtH can plug those gaps we’ll be fine, a half decent DM replacement yesterday makes a massive difference. We need to finish the year strong & hope the club gets sold so that debt can be eradicated & the club can work unshackled.
Our performance has definitely got better since the final whistle. Had it ended 2-2 United would’ve been roundly congratulated on a creditable draw. Fine margins.
XG means nothing, United’s game plan was working and ours wasnt. It was only in the last 20 minutes that we were totally dominant. Before that it was a throw back to a United Arsenal match from the fergie wenger years, you really couldn’t call it. Last 20 was one way traffic and United clearly suffered from midweek.
I was far more impressed with United yesterday then I was watching them against palace in midweek.Dropping points at palace was very poor. Yesterday United took part in an excellent game and ran out of steam. Some of the criticisms here are a bit OTT
XG means nothing, United’s game plan was working and ours wasnt. It was only in the last 20 minutes that we were totally dominant. Before that it was a throw back to a United Arsenal match from the fergie wenger years, you really couldn’t call it. Last 20 was one way traffic and United clearly suffered from midweek.
I was far more impressed with United yesterday then I was watching them against palace in midweek.Dropping points at palace was very poor. Yesterday United took part in an excellent game and ran out of steam. Some of the criticisms here are a bit OTT
Losing to this exceptional Arsenal team is no disgrace and we matched them everywhere on the field, but conceding a goal like we did in the dying moments is hard to take. How ever its clear DDG, for all his brilliance at making impossible saves, is not comfortable with the ball at his feet, and though he has improved in that respect he is a target for the opposition when he tries to kick. Anthony was not at his best and I would have liked to see Garnacho come on for hime for the second half. Wan Bissaka had a very good game but still has moments when he loses concentration. Bruno is a real leader and fights for everything. Rashford has made me eat humble pie as I truly believed that after last season he was washed up, now hes playing better than ever and most importantly is playing with a smile! Martinez is a true diamond and is already a cult hero due to his no nonsense style of playing, he must be terrifying to play against. I still think we can finish 3rd but if City were to slip up, maybe, just maybe we can edge them for runners up!
Yes good sensible post
Theirry Henry:
“Today, we saw a team with three years development vs a team with six months. Also, a team with a full week of rest against a team with two days rest, and still Manchester United went toe to toe, which was surprising. I thought Arsenal would be all over United from kick-off and United’s players would sit back. I was wrong. United in fact had better control in the first half.
I'm proud of the team and Ten Hag. Was annoying we couldn't come away with at least a point but considering above comments from Henry, its great progress.
In 3 years we should be twatting teams left and right.
“Today, we saw a team with three years development vs a team with six months. Also, a team with a full week of rest against a team with two days rest, and still Manchester United went toe to toe, which was surprising. I thought Arsenal would be all over United from kick-off and United’s players would sit back. I was wrong. United in fact had better control in the first half.
I'm proud of the team and Ten Hag. Was annoying we couldn't come away with at least a point but considering above comments from Henry, its great progress.
In 3 years we should be twatting teams left and right.
We lost a game of football to a team that outplayed us on the day while missing the linchpin of our midfield. There’s no need for an inquest…
…that said, why did ETH wait so long to bring on Garnacho, and eventually not use 3 subs available? If we’re holding on for the whistle, taking time off the clock and energy out of the game is a valid tactic.
…that said, why did ETH wait so long to bring on Garnacho, and eventually not use 3 subs available? If we’re holding on for the whistle, taking time off the clock and energy out of the game is a valid tactic.
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Obviously I don't know the specifics but given Eriksen's medical history I suspect that he is taking a beta-blocker. This medication would sap his energy. We should be playing him because of his undoubted ability but recognize that he may only have 70 mins in the tank and plan accordingly.
I think our progress is encouraging and should stand us in good stead when we go to the market for new players. A year ago (or less) we were a team with no direction "lead" by an old player with a huge ego. Now we look like an attractive option for ambitious young players.
He is sensible most of the times. Aside from when he was blaming Chicharito for not celebrating with Ronaldo when Chicha scored a goal in CL.
I'd been saying that from the moment Casemiro got booked at Palace
I'm not sure if that's praise for us or criticism for Arsenal.
Kind of shows why xG is a stupid stat if you don't know how to use it.
We didn't have Casemiro so ETH set us up to break up play and counter. We didn't set out to keep the ball in midfield and have multiple speculative shots from nowhere like Arsenal did. Doesn't look good on the xG stats, but it fit perfectly with our tactic and save for a fluke goal in minute 90 it worked.
Nobody could have watched that game and not been impressed with us, and a little disappointed with Arsenal.
I think he most definitely has a part to play (you only have to look at how many chances created/assists he has). I have no issue with him in a two against ‘lesser’ opposition, however, he was pretty much bypassed in both the city and Arsenal games. His lack of athleticism combined with Bruno not looking after the ball, it’s a bad mix in these sort of games.
I do understand that at this stage, Eriksen not being rotated/rested is likely down to a lack of other options.
Oh, come on. It's not like anyone's putting up the xG as the catch-all Single Final Big Proof that we were shit and Arsenal were great, overruling a lot of conflicting information. The point, made repeatedly, is that xG, shots, touchmaps (Arsenal had 59 touches in our penalty area, we had 11 in theirs. Tomiyasu, a defensive FB who played half the game, had more than any of our players) and eye-test all tell the same story, which is that they subjected us to very heavy offensive pressure, while we did not produce very much in the way of scoring chances. There are clear limits to what xG tells you about a single game, but when it's this disparate, and the shots are equally disparate, and the touchmap tell the same story, and when it was an obvious feature of the game while it was going on that we struggled to control them when they were in possession around our box (for my part I was worried enough about that that I made a post in the match thread about it during the break), what exactly is the point here? That Arsenal were taking lots of speculative shots while we produced fewer but more high-quality chances? Because we really didn't (and of course, if we did, that would also have showed up in the xG). These were the five finishes with the biggest scoring chance of the game:
1. Nketiah (90) 0.61 (Arsenal's third goal)
2. Nketiah (84) 0.47
3. Nketiah (24) 0.42 (Arsenal's first goal)
4. Ødegaard (2) 0.17
5. Nketiah (64) 0.17
We didn't have a single chance that even reached the 0.10 threshold.
Also, I think you'll find that possession was actually about even after the first half. Which is probably one of the reasons this still felt like a close game, and which also contradicts the notion that this was a game where we were happy to sit back and let them have the ball.
So yeah, it was close and we fought well and we've showed progress and there's no reason to hang our heads over this game. But there just isn't a reasonable way of looking at this game that leads you to something other than Arsenal outperforming us big time when it came to generating offense. We didn't produce much, they produced a lot.
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We may have actually been better off points wise out of the past 3 games had we just drawn against city or even suffered a loss, it seems like it was a case of an emotional high hangover like seen in the past in big games usually in big European nights and it had a knock on effect over the last 2 games within the week
I would disagree with that last sentence. We were impressive in the first half. Arsenal were impressive for 90 minutes. I don’t think anyone would be disappointed with them. In fact, that was arguably their most impressive performance of the season.
His game management is a bit sus atm, ngl.
I'd argue that Ten Hag is just finding first hand how physicaly taxing the Premier League is. He probably can get away with little rotating in Eredivisie, but he can't do that here.
Also shit options on the bench.
Well that's kind of what you just said...
Considering the results and plaudits they've been getting I was expecting more from them, considering we are far from the finished article, our most important player was missing, and we were at their ground. We matched them for 89 minutes. I expected them to control us better.
Sorry, but are you taking the piss here or what? That is exactly what I have repeatedly and explicitly been clear is NOT what I'm saying. xG, eye test, touch map, shots - they all tell the same story.
Tbh I feel that you guys are always one of our toughest opponents and for a long time we’ve had a mental block with you. I’m not surprised you’re the only team to beat us so far and I would have been happy with a draw here. Kind of like our win vs Liverpool earlier in the season, even though Liverpool weren’t in great form I still expected to drop points. They’ve thrashed us so frequently in recent years.
But I’d have to disagree that you matched us for 89 minutes - you matched us for about 70. Last 20 minutes you seemed happy with the draw and only one team looked like scoring. We also had one of our most important players in Jesus missing, but thankfully Nketiah has exceeded most people’s expectations so far.
Yeah last 20 mins was like a tidal wave,however fully expected that considering our flood defence wasn't there to stop the water
Yet they needed a keeper error and a deflection to get ahead of us. The eye test suggested evenly matched sides playing different tactics. That's where everybody is questioning you.
Come on, dude. The eye test saw Arsenal absolutely dominate us for the last 20 minutes. And it wasn’t rope a dope, comfortable deep defending. They were creating a host of chances and we were in full on panic mode. Typified by De Gea’s ridiculous punch.
I think a lot of people on here are underestimating how well we performed in the first half (including the guy you’re replying to) but there’s no way that was an evenly matched game for 90 minutes. Which is no great shame on us, for reasons already discussed.
I actually don't recall having seen anyone other than you suggest this was "evenly matched" in the sense we're talking about here, though obviously I haven't read the whole thread. Also slightly curious about allowing the opponent to have the ball a lot in in your own box and create a lot more and better scoring chances than yourself as simply a tactical approach. Novel, very novel.
Man of the Match
Runners-up
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21%
Marcus Rashford
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4%
Wout Weghorst
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2%
Raphael Varane
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2%
David de Gea
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2%
Aaron Wan-Bissaka
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1%
Bruno Fernandes
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1%
Luke Shaw
Player Ratings
Total Average Rating
Highest Rated Player
Lowest Rated Player
Compiled from 252 ratings.
Score Predictions
90,104,49
- Man Utd win
- Arsenal win
- Draw
Detailed Results
- 21% Arsenal 1:2 Man Utd
- 15% Arsenal 2:1 Man Utd
- 13% Arsenal 1:1 Man Utd
- 9% Arsenal 2:0 Man Utd
- 8% Arsenal 3:1 Man Utd
- 5% Arsenal 0:1 Man Utd
- 5% Arsenal 3:0 Man Utd
- 5% Arsenal 1:3 Man Utd
- 5% Arsenal 2:2 Man Utd
- 2% Arsenal 0:0 Man Utd
- 2% Arsenal 2:3 Man Utd
- 2% Arsenal 0:2 Man Utd
- 2% Arsenal 4:0 Man Utd
- 1% Arsenal 3:2 Man Utd
- 1% Arsenal 1:0 Man Utd
- 1% Arsenal 1:4 Man Utd
- 0% Arsenal 5:0 Man Utd
- 0% Arsenal 5:1 Man Utd
- 0% Arsenal 9:1 Man Utd
- 0% Arsenal 0:3 Man Utd
- 0% Arsenal 0:5 Man Utd
- 0% Arsenal 4:1 Man Utd
Match Stats
- Arsenal
- Man Utd
- Possession
- 58% 42%
- Shots
- 25 6
- Shots on Target
- 5 4
- Corners
- 12 4
- Fouls
- 8 9
Referee
Anthony Taylor
Man Utd Lineup
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replaced by Alejandro Garnacho
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replaced by Fred
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