[justsomebloke]

The entire philosophy around gegenpressing was to instigate counter attacks high up the field. This was because stats showed most goals are scored quickly after losing possession. Counter attacking is weirdly held up as some sort of anti-purist football yet it’s at the heart of one of the most important tactics of the last decade.

Yep. Most great teams utilise it extensively. The question is more how much you are also able to score in other ways.

 

[Champ]

He won't be giving it away in interviews. Him saying that in the interview shows they use it. Like you said in other posts (or maybe someone else), it's not a model for single game. It's used with bigger sample size and most clubs use it and the ones who don't are left behind. It's not surprising that statsbomb are the one who are employed/used by lot of clubs.

It needs to be used over the course of a season, or at least a vast amount of games for sure.

I get the impression from that Frank interview that expected goals is probably put into a big post game portfolio of stats, and the only reason he's picked up on it is because it fits his narrative of Brentford having the most/better chances.

It's a stat that can be used there to justify what he is saying rather than any deep meaningful analysis, (they were two nil down in the game he was talking about after 30 mins and so needless to say threw the kitchen sink at the opposition to get goals back).

Interesting to note he didn't mention expected goals after the United game whereby Brentford over performed massively based on expected goals.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

What I don't get is why people keep saying we hit them on the counter... Only our second goal can be considered a counter. For the other two we had possession and Arsenal had ages to set up proper defensive shape, they just left huge holes in there and we cut thought them in a couple passes. That's just bad defensive shape, it's not the same as when you lose possession after overcommitting and getting countered.

Very good point.

The first goal was a prime example of the Ajax-style passing game used to make opponents fall to sleep until one pass (Eriksen's) initiates the change of attacking pace to carve the flat-footed Arsenal team wide open in just 11 seconds. The second goal was a counterattack because it started with an interception by Dalot, deep in our own end as Arsenal were committed on the attack. The third goal started with a throw-in for us deep in the Eastern end of the pitch while Arsenal basically had their CBs camped on the halfway line, which always spells trouble if the team with the ball have fast runners.

In any case, I'm glad that we burst Arsenal's bubble because it's a really good sign of the progress we have made since the Brentford debacle. This United team is beginning to show an identity of its own, the type that people will love.

 

[Maticmaker]

A great result and good performances all around from United. Stand outs for me were Eriksen, great mid field play, Rashford at last beginning to look like his old self, McT breaking things up and managing to move the ball forward, good all l along the back four, Bruno has got things wrong a lot lately but last night showed how brilliant he can be, and Antony took to OT like a duck to water. Malacia for the most part kept Saka quiet and the subs coming on did well.
Jaden bit 'in and out' perhaps overshadowed by Antony and Marcus's return to something like his old form.

All-in-all a good night, just took a hell of a lot longer time to get out of W2 car park than usual, cannot figure out why?
Still with that result, what is the odd extra hour here or there?

 

[Gasolin]

Whatever you're talking about here, it's not our second goal. Because that started with Dalot picking up a loose Arsenal pass in our own half. You can see it on the clip further up in the discussion.

It was the first goal.

 

[justsomebloke]

Never could understand all this back and forth over the usefulness of xG. Like any statistic, it tells you something about what it measures. In this case about the combined volume and quality of scoring chances a team creates in the course of a game or a series of games. To argue, for example, that it's useless because it doesn't measure other things you want to know is simply to not understand what statistics is and how you use it - ie, it only answers questions that are about the things it measures. So, to use it requires figuring out which questions a statistic can address and which ones it can't. And for those latter you just have to find some other way of finding answers, doesn't mean the statistic is useless.

 

[Hester_manc]

Hasselbaink, a Dutchman, was whinging also...maybe it's not the nationality...

Pundits in the english media then.

 

[justsomebloke]

It was the first goal.

Which I think we all agree wasn't a counterattack.

 

[OptimisedRed]

The best thing about beating Arsenal is what this will do for our players confidence. We have beat some very good teams over the last couple of weeks, and morale will have recovered after our awful start so hopefully we can kick on.
Our opposition will already be adjusting from the view of us being up for the taking to an opponent that once again commands respect. Our backline not being crushed under a relentless press by every single team we play is already making a big difference, with our defence looking much more assured now.
DDG not having to deal with anywhere near as many dodgy back passes because our midfield didn't have the creativity to get the ball forward so would pass back to Maguire who would immediately be pressed because of his lack of speed and mobility.
Also the speed and movement from defence to give each other and DDG the easy pass has been so much better. Little things that make a big difference even before we look at ETH's tactical influence. Mctominay is looking so much more confident now he has better players behind and beside him as well, and I'm sure the same would apply to Fred if he was starting.

 

[DevilRed]

The thing I like most is weve gone from some real soft touches to being absolute bullies out there. Reminds me of the good old days with keano and stam.

Spoiler

 

[Houdini]

Well, again between 15 minutes or so and our second goal, they had the ball most of the time and were able to generate pretty consistent and heavy offensive pressure while we rarely got out of our own end. We fought hard and defended well, but we did not look to me like the team with the more quality. You can't tell me you were surprised when they equalised.

They did not have a goal scoring chance. Passing the ball around the box means nothing. We were well organized and weren't all over the place like most of our matches last year. They had literally ONE good goal scoring opportunity, 3 shots on target. We had 6 if I am correct. I never seen that goal coming, it was an individual error (Varane) and a very good counter by Arsenal. That's it. I am not very impressed by this Arsenal side. Overrated. The only one who impressed me was G. Jesus who was superb.

 

[bosskeano]

They had the goal, the other decent chance was the header at the back post which Dave saved with his right hand....other than that they didn't create anything

Still don't get this whole rhetoric that arsenal dominated the match and united were lucky to score bullshit

 

[peridigm]

First of all, feck YouTube TV for posting the score in the library which spoiled the result for me. I was visiting my son who lives in Manchester Connecticut by the way, taking that as a good omen and will visit him for all big matches in the future. Basically had to avoid using my phone all day until I returned home only to see the score in the menu. Absolute asshole design.

Lineup was spot on.
First 10-12 minutes were brilliant.
Structure and tactics were clearly visible.
Players were up for it.
Hard to select a MOTM for me. McTominay, Eriksen, Bruno were fantastic. We finally have a fecking midfield!
Bruno looking more like the player we signed.
Both fullbacks were great. Really like Malacia. He's only going to improve. Dalot improving as well. Excited to see how he and Antony progress.
CB's were fantastic again.
DDG made some damn fine saves.
Rashford is coming back into form. Fairly silent in the first half but pleased with his 2nd half brace. Will help his confidence tremendously.

No real bad or mediocre performances. If I had to pick on it would be Sancho. Casemiro another one I guess. Thought he would have started but McTominay deserves his starting spot as of late.
Nice to see we didn't cower after they scored. Good subs. Ronaldo crying and complaining when a pass to him doesn't come off is getting old. Be positive for fecks sake. We were playing well and he needs to accept his role as a sub.

Did not read the previous replies in the post match but did anyone else think the foul on Bruno should have been a red? It was at least a yellow. Surprised VAR didn't look at it. Looked to be studs down the back of the calf.

 

[justsomebloke]

First of all, feck YouTube TV for posting the score in the library which spoiled the result for me. I was visiting my son who lives in Manchester Connecticut by the way, taking that as a good omen and will visit him for all big matches in the future. Basically had to avoid using my phone all day until I returned home only to see the score in the menu. Absolute asshole design.

Lineup was spot on.
First 10-12 minutes were brilliant.
Structure and tactics were clearly visible.
Players were up for it.
Hard to select a MOTM for me. McTominay, Eriksen, Bruno were fantastic. We finally have a fecking midfield!
Bruno looking more like the player we signed.
Both fullbacks were great. Really like Malacia. He's only going to improve. Dalot improving as well. Excited to see how he and Antony progress.
CB's were fantastic again.
DDG made some damn fine saves.
Rashford is coming back into form. Fairly silent in the first half but pleased with his 2nd half brace. Will help his confidence tremendously.

No real bad or mediocre performances. If I had to pick on it would be Sancho. Casemiro another one I guess. Thought he would have started but McTominay deserves his starting spot as of late.
Nice to see we didn't cower after they scored. Good subs. Ronaldo crying and complaining when a pass to him doesn't come off is getting old. Be positive for fecks sake. We were playing well and he needs to accept his role as a sub.

Did not read the previous replies in the post match but did anyone else think the foul on Bruno should have been a red? It was at least a yellow. Surprised VAR didn't look at it. Looked to be studs down the back of the calf.

I think a red would have been harsh, if not wrong But definitely close enough to warrant consideration. Clear miss by the ref not to yellow it.

 

[tenpoless]

Even their own commentator doesn't seem to support them.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

They had the goal, the other decent chance was the header at the back post which Dave saved with his right hand....other than that they didn't create anything

Still don't get this whole rhetoric that arsenal dominated the match and united were lucky to score bullshit

Both teams were good yesterday. United just punished Arsenal in the key areas where it mattered and that was in the middle of the pitch. Ten Haag knew Arsenal's vulnerabilities lie with Partey being out and leaving gaps in the middle. Added to that, Lokonga is not on Eriksen's level with it comes to positional awareness and discipline when moving, passing and delivering key passes in key areas. Other than that (as a neutral) I would say that it was an even match with Utd simply being more clinical and decisive in the final 3rd where it mattered most. Some of Arsenal's decision making when they got into attacking areas were slow and poor, but their overall football is very good if analyzed. The loss doesn't derail anything they've done this season, it just gives them and Utd a clearer perspective on what needs to be worked on by their respective coaches.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

They had the goal, the other decent chance was the header at the back post which Dave saved with his right hand....other than that they didn't create anything

Still don't get this whole rhetoric that arsenal dominated the match and united were lucky to score bullshit

I looked at the game. I think people mean they 'controlled' the game for larger periods. I won't say dominated as there were times in that game that Utd could have scored at least 2 more. They did control the game for the most part but the key here was Eriksen dropping deeper and Fernandes moving further up. Lokonga is not as experienced at those two players and you can clearly see from the 3 goals that this is where the game was won.

 

[Shiva87]

First of all, feck YouTube TV for posting the score in the library which spoiled the result for me. I was visiting my son who lives in Manchester Connecticut by the way, taking that as a good omen and will visit him for all big matches in the future. Basically had to avoid using my phone all day until I returned home only to see the score in the menu. Absolute asshole design.

Have had to do the same thing a few times for games and hate the new formats of these platforms, which show you the result straight away.

My trick nowadays is to have my wife set it up for me while I am not in the room, and join only once the game has started "deferred live" for me.

It's hard work but worth it! I had to do this for the Liverpool game, and that was a pleasure to watch. Would have hated knowing the result of that game beforehand.

 

[DSG]

Never could understand all this back and forth over the usefulness of xG. Like any statistic, it tells you something about what it measures. In this case about the combined volume and quality of scoring chances a team creates in the course of a game or a series of games. To argue, for example, that it's useless because it doesn't measure other things you want to know is simply to not understand what statistics is and how you use it - ie, it only answers questions that are about the things it measures. So, to use it requires figuring out which questions a statistic can address and which ones it can't. And for those latter you just have to find some other way of finding answers, doesn't mean the statistic is useless.

I think it’s one of many tools and stats that tell a story of the game. Sometimes it does a good job of this, sometimes not.

It doesn’t help that there are large variances in how it is calculated by different statistical providers. It’s not reliable compared to other stats like shots on goal, possession, etc.

‘Anyone who watched the Arsenal match would say that they had a lot of possession, but few clear cut chances. Even their goal had a bit of luck to it. Most people equate possession with game control but that is a very superficial definition. You could have a situation where you are down 1-0 and your CBs are passing back and forth, thus generating 90% but creating no threats. Similarly, a chance in the 6 yd box seems like a high xG chance, but if it is at an awkward height/velocity, xG doesn’t account for those variables.

 

[NLunited]

No doubt the ref would have sent him off if Arsenal were leading.

Do people who call our manager stupid before the match starts and our game shit, slow and predictable, 15 minutes in at 0-0, celebrate the win as well? Afraid damage is done for a part of fanbase, no turning back. Maybe watching more City, PSG and Real would help and make people see that even the best of teams struggle in some games and definitely struggle during some periods of a game.

Those people don’t deserve to be fans, they are miserable dumb fecks.

 

[DSG]

I looked at the game. I think people mean they 'controlled' the game for larger periods. I won't say dominated as there were times in that game that Utd could have scored at least 2 more. They did control the game for the most part but the key here was Eriksen dropping deeper and Fernandes moving further up. Lokonga is not as experienced at those two players and you can clearly see from the 3 goals that this is where the game was won.

We were happy to give them meaningless possession and use quick forward passing between the lines and through balls in behind. The downside of that is very few of those come off, meaning you lose possession easily. But when you have the brilliance of Eriksen and Bruno putting players through, you don’t need more that 3 or 4 chances. Also remember, when you play this way, your defensive structure is still solid, so if the ball is turned over to the opposition, your defenders are still in good positions to defend.

Most people think possession = good football. I prefer the beauty of counterattacks and quick attacking moves over slower, methodical attacking.

 

[always_hoping]

And just like that their unbeaten run was over..

 

[Dominos]

The entire philosophy around gegenpressing was to instigate counter attacks high up the field. This was because stats showed most goals are scored quickly after losing possession. Counter attacking is weirdly held up as some sort of anti-purist football yet it’s at the heart of one of the most important tactics of the last decade.

I think it's worth differentiating between transition and counter attack.

If a counter attack is simply winning the ball and scoring shortly after, if you go press a centre back and he makes an error and gifts you the ball so you're 1 on 1 with the keeper, then you've just scored on the counter. But no one would really consider that a counter attack.

There's really no strict definitions, but winning the ball high up the pitch vs countering from your own half feel a lot different. It's always going to be a grey area though to be fair.

 

[NewUser777]

We were happy to give them meaningless possession and use quick forward passing between the lines and through balls in behind. The downside of that is very few of those come off, meaning you lose possession easily. But when you have the brilliance of Eriksen and Bruno putting players through, you don’t need more that 3 or 4 chances. Also remember, when you play this way, your defensive structure is still solid, so if the ball is turned over to the opposition, your defenders are still in good positions to defend.

Most people think possession = good football. I prefer the beauty of counterattacks and quick attacking moves over slower, methodical attacking.

Wtf.. Im happy we won and all. But what are you writing? A Novell? Happy to give them meaningless possession? We should count our selves lucky they didn’t convert, like they have done before. And learn from it. At times, we had far to big distance between our players. Still need to work on that. And keeping possession has been our Achilles for ever..

 

[Chief123]

Because expected goals is bullshit!

Ben Foster was speaking about expected goals the other day and categorically stated that no manager gives a feck a out expected goals, and no team gives it a passing thought.

It’s certainly not bullshit.

It’s a very significant metric that teams would most certainly pay attention to. If a team is constantly getting a higher xG than the number of goals they are actually getting would show they are doing everything right in terms of build up but failing to score chances they should be scoring.

Likewise a team could be scoring more than their xG which would be a worrying stat as it means the team is scoring goals which they have no right to score.

It’s a very important metric and not BS.

 

[Boondog]

Never could understand all this back and forth over the usefulness of xG. Like any statistic, it tells you something about what it measures. In this case about the combined volume and quality of scoring chances a team creates in the course of a game or a series of games. To argue, for example, that it's useless because it doesn't measure other things you want to know is simply to not understand what statistics is and how you use it - ie, it only answers questions that are about the things it measures. So, to use it requires figuring out which questions a statistic can address and which ones it can't. And for those latter you just have to find some other way of finding answers, doesn't mean the statistic is useless.

Nice post mate. Where I think it is valuable is comparing it to your bottom line as a grade for your finishing. It has all manner of weaknesses but if you utilize the tool in the right way it can give you real data that you can use to improve your team.

 

[Hughie77]

I've read the crap and listened to some more today. We won a game 3-1 if we had lost it would be the same but worse. There has been by most praising ETH on how he managed the 90mins, then you have the same old people who still have to give a backhanded comment .

We've won 4 straight games 2 tricky away games and 2 tough home games, but that is still not enough for the purists they want more.

I want more control in games I think that will come ATM I will take winning games over substance. Its a long season and there us a lot of improvement to come hopefully.

In the present though this team deserves more credit than it's getting from some quarters. People and pros and ex pros etc are so used to bashing UTD they cannot pull there head out of there asses to admit that UTD are doing OK so far. I hope this continues and piss off the usual suspects.. Well done lads great win ..

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I disagree. A counter has to be in transition surely? Utd literally played that out from the back. What are we supposed to be countering here?
Both teams are set in their structures. Dalot even takes a few touches and lazily plays a 5 yard pass inside.
Playing quick passes isn’t a counter attack. You have fantastic counters that has a runner who plays one pass after running clear from the length of the pitch.
We didn’t even win the ball.

Playing out from the back is also considered a transition in some quarters. Thus why for those of us who acsribe to that view, the second goal would be considered a counter attack. Since we started the move slow, lulling Arsenal, who were set on the front foot into a false sense of security, springing our trap, then spend it up, countering ANY chance Arsenal had to set their defence. Them having 11 guys behind the back is irrelevant. The nature of our attack took them all out of the equation before they knew what hit them.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

We were happy to give them meaningless possession and use quick forward passing between the lines and through balls in behind. The downside of that is very few of those come off, meaning you lose possession easily. But when you have the brilliance of Eriksen and Bruno putting players through, you don’t need more that 3 or 4 chances. Also remember, when you play this way, your defensive structure is still solid, so if the ball is turned over to the opposition, your defenders are still in good positions to defend.

Most people think possession = good football. I prefer the beauty of counterattacks and quick attacking moves over slower, methodical attacking.

Correct. Both strategies are based on the players you have as a coach and sometimes playing to the weaknesses of the opposition. I'm 100% certain that if Partey was there yesterday, Eriksen would not have had all that time and space to play those forward passes to Bruno; that's because he's is extremely good at positional play and can read the game really well. What happened yesterday is that Odegaard had to drop deep to press Eriksen (the tackle that led to the disallowed goal) and Bruno moving further forward, pinned Lokonga and Xhaka away from the player who mattered most...Eriksen. Arsenal played to their strengths and so did Utd but football at that level is small margins and you switch off positionally and tactically, you'd be punished. I commend Ten Haag for using the disadvantage of Partey being absent to his team's benefit by simply playing on the counter (from the #6 position). Arteta shouldn't feel too worried by this loss though, his Arsenal players have developed into a very very good team. A few more additions in quality and games like yesterday may have different results.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

What a game, still buzzing here. I need to apologize to Rashford and McT, who I did not think should have started. They both were immense. So happy for Rashford.

 

[avgp_1]

They had the goal, the other decent chance was the header at the back post which Dave saved with his right hand....other than that they didn't create anything

Still don't get this whole rhetoric that arsenal dominated the match and united were lucky to score bullshit

There was the Odegaard chance which he should have put away tbh and the miss from inside the box in the first half from Saliba was it? I can understand xG between reasonably close.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

Yep. Most great teams utilise it extensively. The question is more how much you are also able to score in other ways.

As a coach of an U18 squad, we discussed using it at times. When we tried it, the team tired after 40 mins. By half time they were toast and we had to change things for the 2nd half as the players just didn't have the legs to do it again for 45 mins. It requires A LOT of energy and coordinated movement and if one player isn't pressing in the right way, it leaves the others ragged. Some coaches use it at later periods in the game (especially if you had possession of the ball) because by that time, mistakes happen as a result of fatigue. Utd didn't really use it yesterday, they simply used the weakness of Arsenal missing Partey to their advantage.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

They had the goal, the other decent chance was the header at the back post which Dave saved with his right hand....other than that they didn't create anything

Still don't get this whole rhetoric that arsenal dominated the match and united were lucky to score bullshit

That's not entirely accurate. They created quite a few more chances but they were not clinical, brave nor ruthless in the final third.

 

[DSG]

Correct. Both strategies are based on the players you have as a coach and sometimes playing to the weaknesses of the opposition. I'm 100% certain that if Partey was there yesterday, Eriksen would not have had all that time and space to play those forward passes to Bruno; that's because he's is extremely good at positional play and can read the game really well. What happened yesterday is that Odegaard had to drop deep to press Eriksen (the tackle that led to the disallowed goal) and Bruno moving further forward, pinned Lokonga and Xhaka away from the player who mattered most...Eriksen. Arsenal played to their strengths and so did Utd but football at that level is small margins and you switch off positionally and tactically, you'd be punished. I commend Ten Haag for using the disadvantage of Partey being absent to his team's benefit by simply playing on the counter (from the #6 position). Arteta shouldn't feel too worried by this loss though, his Arsenal players have developed into a very very good team. A few more additions in quality and games like yesterday may have different results.

I agree with a lot of this. I think you’re probably slightly overstating the impact Partey would have had. I think it was Odegaard’s responsibility to shadow Eriksen, and I don’t think that would have changed with Partey available. If anything, Bruno would have had less time on the ball with Partey in the game.

Up til now, Arsenal had a cream puff schedule; they are certainly top 4 contenders, but I see them a step behind Spurs and Chelsea. Some of our biggest challenges are going to be against sides that sit back a bit because it really renders Rashford ineffective. Also, the maniacal high pressing sides like Leeds and Newcastle are going to give us problems.

 

[Boondog]

Up til now, Arsenal had a cream puff schedule; they are certainly top 4 contenders, but I see them a step behind Spurs and Chelsea.

I will be surprised if they don't finish top 4. I think they're the 2 team this year in fact. Their depth of forward/attacking options on top of the possession is going to win them a ton of games. I think they are a clear cut above Spurs and Chelsea. Liverpool is better at the top of their roster (so maybe they push them down to 3) but I think Arse will win more games than them this season.

I also think teams take after their managers. So Arse are intelligent and versatile, technically sound, with a great collection of talent. But I like the direction we are trending under ten Hag too. I prefer my club to be tough mentally and bulldog-ish on the pitch which down the road should serve them much better in the biggest games and stages they will encounter.

 

[bosskeano]

That's not entirely accurate. They created quite a few more chances but they were not clinical, brave nor ruthless in the final third.

a ball falling to a CB in the box IMO isn't exactly a quality chance as most CB's aren't known for their finishing under pressure

in the end though, you guys are right in that it came down to taking your chances when in a position to put the ball in the net from a legit scoring chance. United took the 3 of the 5 good chances and i'd say Arsenal took one of maybe 3 legit chances. Bare in mind, the goal they scored actually came from Dalot making that tackle and putting it directly into the path of Saka.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

And just like that their unbeaten run was over..

So funny because it's true.

 

[Fetshu]

Someone posted a series of tweets from pundits and professionals being mad about the VAR and the cancelled goal.
I understand that their anger towards VAR stems from dodgy calls throughout the weekend, but what baffles me, is that in our game, it was actually the right decision and yet they are still mad.
Although Tierney was right next to the situation and should've called it without the interference from VAR, but I think this moment proved that VAR is a welcomed addition in some cases (although this might be my United bias talking).

 

[Boondog]

Only people unhappy with the VAR in that game are the pundits who hate United and the ignoramuses among the Arse fan base. It was a foul. You can say "weak foul" but expecting a film review process to filter out "weak fouls" is idiotic. It's not gonna happen.

If you want a catch-all to ensure the calls are not grievously wrong, you will need to accept shit like this, where a non-call by the ref gets overturned due to nitpicking 1/10,000th of a second frame by frame.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Have had to do the same thing a few times for games and hate the new formats of these platforms, which show you the result straight away.

My trick nowadays is to have my wife set it up for me while I am not in the room, and join only once the game has started "deferred live" for me.

It's hard work but worth it! I had to do this for the Liverpool game, and that was a pleasure to watch. Would have hated knowing the result of that game beforehand.

I have to tape a portion of the games since they are sometimes on super early or in midweek when i'm working.
I can't imagine how hard it is to avoid the score in England, much less Manchester. Here the only thing i need to do is avoid youtube (subd on a couple man united shows) and avoid a couple of the sports websites i frequent. Even then i have to be careful.