Post Match United v Blackburn

Stack said:
I find most of the comments are cringe worthy. The injury and sickness list is huge. Coaches trust that players can do a job and these days all players need to be capable of handling multiple positions but at the same time when you look at the list of injuries and illness to the squad fans seriously need to keep things in context.

Some of the shit written in this thread makes RAWK look sensible.

Shame, that word should be applied to the fans
Click to expand...

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's superfan!!

Anger and frustration are all part of being a fan.

People need to get off of their high horses and let people voice their opinions.
 
Stack said:
I find most of the comments are cringe worthy. The injury and sickness list is huge. Coaches trust that players can do a job and these days all players need to be capable of handling multiple positions but at the same time when you look at the list of injuries and illness to the squad fans seriously need to keep things in context.

Some of the shit written in this thread makes RAWK look sensible.

Shame, that word should be applied to the fans
Click to expand...

The fact that you write this after the latest shitstorm by them is cringe-worthy.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
People always say this. It makes no sense. What happens if we DON'T build up a lead? Their keeper has a blinder. We're wasteful in front of goal. Whatever. What next? Take off our best players and replace them with someone weaker?
Click to expand...

you've no proof that would have happened what we do have proof of is that the other way failed. end of. if fergie thought it was worth sticking to then he wouldn't change it at 45 mns.

BaldwinLegend said:
He's at least been back from injury for longer than Anderson has.
Click to expand...

and showed that at rb but in ctr midf he was crap. but a few extra run outs for someone injured longer a put out of place is wrong.
 
Anduin said:
We got what we deserved. Blackburn did well to keep us out, we had no creativity, no pace, absolutely feck all. Two well taken goals by Berbatov, otherwise Bunn (the cnut, the time-wasting was ridiculous) was very comfortable.

Feck sake, this game could really cost us at the end of the season. I haven't been this pissed off for a good while. Blackburn FFS, why oh why do you pick a team full of players playing out of position Fergie?
Click to expand...

There were players playing out of position against Wigan, didn't see any muppets talk about that.

David Gea is not the escape goat here but he should of done better on the final goal.

This game was extremely nerve racking as half of the game was not going according to Fergie's way.

Understandable that the loss was hard to take and it was really hard to take for me to be honest, but we need ourselves to get our chin up and support Fergie as he knows what he is doing.

I don't care if City wins but I am sure they will cock up in January it is just a matter of time and we will capitalise on it, like we have been doing the last 20 years.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Fryers one and only first team game at centre-half was alongside one of our most experienced defenders. Starting him alongside someone as raw and undisciplined as Phil Jones would have been total madness.
Click to expand...

He's played many more games than Carrick in defence though and knows the position inside out, we have our youth and reserve teams set up so players can just slot in. Not to mention the improvement in midfield that Carrick would have brought. Like I said before Rooney was on fire and was moved to midfield and a form drop happened, now Carrick puts in some world class midfield performances and he's dropped back to centre back, its not the way imo. Ferguson admitted as much with his changes in the second half trying to get people in there correct roles. We should be looking to pick a settled side and of course we have injuries but all this switching roles means midfield is effect as well as the defence.
 
Sultan said:
If he's fit enough to be on the bench, I would have to think he's physically ready for playing. If there is danger he could be injured he should not be on the bench.
Click to expand...

So there's no shades of gray for you? He's either fit enough to start, or not fit enough and we're therefore risking injury for him? I think he was probably somewhere in between...

The negativity in this place sometimes gets to me... Either Fergie fecked up by not starting him, or he fecked up by risking him... You ever think that United might actually know what they're doing and did exactly the right thing yesterday? You'd have thought they'd have some experience with this stuff by now...
 
BaldwinLegend said:
If we'd asked him to play the first 45 mins and he'd aggravated his knee, or pulled a muscle somewhere after so long out, that wouldn't look too clever, would it?
Click to expand...

but he ended up still playing 45 minutes so your point is moot

If he's not fit, dont put him on the bench
 
BaldwinLegend said:
So there's no shades of gray for you? He's either fit enough to start, or not fit enough and we're therefore risking injury for him? I think he was probably somewhere in between...

The negativity in this place sometimes gets to me... Either Fergie fecked up by not starting him, or he fecked up by risking him... You ever think that United might actually know what they're doing and did exactly the right thing yesterday? You'd have thought they'd have some experience with this stuff by now...
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying but then at the same time the club deemed him fit enough to play a full 45 mins when we were chasing the game, surely a more demanding role then starting a game. Having said that though, as I said earlier although we can debate whether other players could have started, the team put out there although not ideal showed that they had enough to win the game but didn't perform well enough and that was the ultimate cause of our loss.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
You ever think that United might actually know what they're doing and did exactly the right thing yesterday? You'd have thought they'd have some experience with this stuff by now...
Click to expand...

jesus, we're not calling for the managers head. We appreciate everything he's done and achieved for the last 20 years. But it doesn't mean he's infallible, and that he doesn't make judgement errors occasionally. He's human.

This is a forum board, where people can discuss and question decisions. We don't all have to have the same opinion (as long as its discussed in a constructive manner)
 
BaldwinLegend said:
So there's no shades of gray for you? He's either fit enough to start, or not fit enough and we're therefore risking injury for him? I think he was probably somewhere in between...

The negativity in this place sometimes gets to me... Either Fergie fecked up by not starting him, or he fecked up by risking him... You ever think that United might actually know what they're doing and did exactly the right thing yesterday? You'd have thought they'd have some experience with this stuff by now...
Click to expand...

Of course SAF knows a lot more than we ever will - I get the impression from your post we should just agree with what SAF says, the club does because they know best.

It's a forum, we're here to waste out times talking rubbish and arguing.
 
golden_blunder said:
but he ended up still playing 45 minutes so your point is moot

If he's not fit, dont put him on the bench
Click to expand...

That misses my point though - it's likely he was only ever going to be used if we were in real trouble and needed him, as we did. I suspect we'd have liked to get away with not needing/using him at all.

I don't think it's as black and white as 'fit' and 'not fit'. He was fit enough to be used if essential to the team and our ambitions. If not essential, we wouldn't use him. If we'd started him, we wouldn't have had that choice.
 
Sultan said:
Of course SAF knows a lot more than we ever will - I get the impression from your post we should just agree with what SAF says, the club does because they know best.

It's a forum, we're here to waste out times talking rubbish and arguing.
Click to expand...

I'm only making that point in the face of pretty strong criticism of the decision to use him as a substitute. Of course you're entitled to your opinion - it's worth pointing out that I'm sure no little thought and expertise went into how best to use Anderson yesterday in riposte though.
 
golden_blunder said:
jesus, we're not calling for the managers head. We appreciate everything he's done and achieved for the last 20 years. But it doesn't mean he's infallible, and that he doesn't make judgement errors occasionally. He's human.

This is a forum board, where people can discuss and question decisions. We don't all have to have the same opinion (as long as its discussed in a constructive manner)
Click to expand...

you're a manager set up another title page - "everything anyone from united does is wonderful" therefore doing away with public debate. then those who wear rose tinted specs won't have to stand this ordeal! oh the pain of talking football and differences of opinion.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
it's worth pointing out that I'm sure no little thought and expertise went into how best to use Anderson yesterday in riposte though.
Click to expand...

I'd say with all his experience, and expertise he's still prone to making the odd mistake.
 
golden_blunder said:
jesus, we're not calling for the managers head. We appreciate everything he's done and achieved for the last 20 years. But it doesn't mean he's infallible, and that he doesn't make judgement errors occasionally. He's human.

This is a forum board, where people can discuss and question decisions. We don't all have to have the same opinion (as long as its discussed in a constructive manner)
Click to expand...

I've not accused anyone of calling for his head, or said someone shouldn't be entitled to an opinion. Just arguing that I'm sure there was some sense behind starting Anderson off the bench, and discussing what that might be.
 
Sultan said:
I'd say with all his experience, and expertise he's still prone to making the odd mistake.
Click to expand...

What mistake has he made here?

And I'm not arguing he doesn't make mistakes - Christ, I've said on here today I don't think he's handled the succession to VdS perfectly at all - but I don't see what his mistake here is.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
What mistake has he made here?
Click to expand...

ffs - he played a rb in ctr midf who's fresh from another injury based on 90 mins of a resev match in which i assume he played at rb not ctr midf. how about 5 players out of position instead of possibly 2.
 
Sultan said:
Played Rafael in midfield instead of Anderson or Pogba (IMO).
Click to expand...

What if his medical staff said that Anderson is not at risk of injuring himself, but should be eased back, either playing as few minutes as possible, or not at all? That's the best explanation to me - that he'd be used if needed, and not at all if possible.

Do you really think Pogba has looked ready for the first team this season? Would be fairly brazen to start Pogba in such a match, with so little first team PL experience... I think SAF just wanted Park and Rafael to block the midfield and hope that with Berbatov, Nani, Valencia, Hernandez and Welbeck he'd have enough firepower at home to see off Blackburn.
 
golden_blunder said:
but he ended up still playing 45 minutes so your point is moot

If he's not fit, dont put him on the bench
Click to expand...

Seriously? Come on now. We all know it's standard practice to put players on the bench who Fergie would rather not play at all, if they're carrying a niggle or not fully match fit. Complete myth that every sub is fit enough to start any given game.
 
Surely Ando was only on the bench due to Giggs being rested and Gibson's apparent misdemeanours which along with our injuries left us vulnerable and inexperienced in the middle. SAF said Ando had trained for 10 days but normal protocol is to get game time in the Reserves first before playing for the First Team.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
Surely Ando was only on the bench due to Giggs being rested and Gibson's apparent misdemeanours which along with our injuries left us vulnerable and inexperienced in the middle. SAF said Ando had trained for 10 days but normal protocol is to get game time in the Reserves first before playing for the First Team.
Click to expand...

It used to be normal protocol. These days regular first team players are hardly given a run in the reserves.
 
Always been a case if you passed a fitness test you're fit to start or be on the subs bench.
 
Sultan said:
It used to be normal protocol. These days regular first team players are hardly given a run in the reserves.
Click to expand...

It varies really the likes of Fletcher, Anderson, Rafael have all seen gametime in the reserves in recent time when match fitness was needed.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Happens all the time with longer term injuries. Rafael played for the reserves last week. Anderson himself played a game for the reserves the last time he did his knee.
Click to expand...

In the past players always played reserve minutes before being risked. This is now not always the case. Rafael is still rookie. It would be a rare sight ever see Rio, Vidic, Rooney, Carrick, Evra given a run out in the reserves.
 
Sultan said:
In the past players always played reserve minutes before being risked. This is now not always the case. Rafael is still rookie. It would be a rare sight ever see Rio, Vidic, Rooney, Carrick, Evra given a run out in the reserves.
Click to expand...

Age, as well as experience and their importance to the squad would probably play a role in that. It also depends on the length of the lay-off.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Happens all the time with longer term injuries. Rafael played for the reserves last week. Anderson himself played a game for the reserves the last time he did his knee.
Click to expand...

Needs must, we weren't easing him through the reserves, he was on the bench he should have started
 
I really don't understand what the big debate is really. Fergie fecked the selection up yesterday,and it cost us 3 points, it is as simple as that.

He gambled against Wigan and it worked, he gambled similarly against Blackburn and it didn't work. So what does that mean?

To me it shows clearly that the more you gamble, the more chance you have of losing, so the cleverer you have to be assessing the potential risks. Fergie's poor utilisation of what we had available yesterday imo, stacked the odds against us much more than was necessary.

We could have set up with Rafael at RB, Valencia or Anderson or Pogba in midfield alongside Park for starters. Not significantly better admittedly, but much more logical and players would have been more comfortable playing positions they are used to playing.

We could also have had Giggs on the bench at least, to have a bench so inexperienced and untested as back up to such an experimental first team selection was sheer stupidity imo.

Bottom line Fergie fecked it up yesterday in probably our easiest fixture of the season. Playing a second string Blackburn, low on confidence and away at OT. He got it all wrong and we paid the price and suffered a very humiliating defeat to a very poor Blackburn team, who most disappointingly for us, did relatively little to score 3 goals at OT and secure 3 invaluable points for them.

No positives to be taken for us from that game, but now it's over i am glad that it may relieve the disgraceful and undeserved treatment Steve Kean has been getting from the Blackburn fans.

Merry Christmas Steve Kean! You surely couldn't have dreamed of getting a more unexpected and timely gift than the one you received at OT yesterday!
 
fecked the selection up?

I only don't understand why Rafael didn't play at RB and Valencia in midfield, and I'd like to know what really happened to Gibson (rested, injured or what papers say).

What would have been your line-up?
 
Maciek said:
fecked the selection up?

I only don't understand why Rafael didn't play at RB and Valencia in midfield, and I'd like to know what really happened to Gibson (rested, injured or what papers say).

What would have been your line-up?
Click to expand...
Use four proper defenders (Rafael, Jones, Evra, Fryers), use midfielders in their proper positions (Valencia, Carrick, Anderson, Nani) and take Anderson off after an hour when the game is most likely won. Some may argue that Jones/Evra would've had a hard time against Yakubu, but I'd rather say that Yakubu wouldn't have got anywhere near the ball as much with Carrick and Anderson in midfield with much better balance.
Playing Rafael in central midfield while Valencia plays in Rafael's most natural position was indeed bizarre, I agree.
 
Anderson wasn't fit enough to start the game, Ferguson didn't really want to use him yesterday. And if someone is not fit enough to play for 90 minutes, it's better to use him in second half.

It would have probably been an amazing decision by Ferguson if we had scored third goal (or if we hadn't conceded third).
 
I can understand why in the team we went out in, Rafael and Valencia played where they did. Neither are particularly good passers but putting Valencia at right back allows you to utilise his pace and crossing. In the middle he couldn't have done that. Additionally unlike Rafael he's not comfortable using his weaker foot and so he wouldn't have been able to run through the middle as much, and he would have been exposed for his one footedness when he had pressure on him.
 
Maciek said:
Anderson wasn't fit enough to start the game, Ferguson didn't really want to use him yesterday. And if someone is not fit enough to play for 90 minutes, it's better to use him in second half.

It would have probably been an amazing decision by Ferguson if we had scored third goal (or if we hadn't conceded third).
Click to expand...
Well, he was fit for 45 minutes, that's better than nothing. Even Carrick/Park would've been a far better choice. Well, the damage has already been done, we move on.
 
Maciek said:
Anderson wasn't fit enough to start the game, Ferguson didn't really want to use him yesterday. And if someone is not fit enough to play for 90 minutes, it's better to use him in second half.

It would have probably been an amazing decision by Ferguson if we had scored third goal (or if we hadn't conceded third).
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't it would have been an illadvised gamble that we got lucky from.

If you don't think the selection was a feck up then that's your choice, but for me everything about it was stupid. Playing so many square pegs in round holes is always a gamble. Park in CM is a gamble as he does not play there often, so to play him there alongside a RB and then move Valencia to RB to accommodate that decision further was an even more baffling.

Anderson was fit enough to play a part, so start him in his proper position get the game won then rest him. Fergie made the same mistakes in the CL playing weakened teams to rest players instead of getting the game won first then resting players. He does it too often for it not to bite him on the arse occasionally, unfortunately yesterday was another of those times.

If those rumours are true about him axing Rooney and Gibson etc, then i would also question the decision to axe them at a time when we are so decimated by injury. Was it in the best interests of the club not to have those players available yesterday? for me no, we at the least would have had a much stronger bench, had Rooney and Gibson been on it.

Why not punish them in a few weeks time, when it will have less of a negative impact on the team. So sorry for me, the only thing Fergie got right yesterday was admitting he fecked the selection up and changing it back to some semblance of logic at half time, everything else he gambled irresponsibly on imo and on the day it was a gamble that didn't pay off.
 
Ash_G said:
I can understand why in the team we went out in, Rafael and Valencia played where they did. Neither are particularly good passers but putting Valencia at right back allows you to utilise his pace and crossing. In the middle he couldn't have done that. Additionally unlike Rafael he's not comfortable using his weaker foot and so he wouldn't have been able to run through the middle as much, and he would have been exposed for his one footedness when he had pressure on him.
Click to expand...

What? Valencia has played down the middle both for Wigan and for Ecuador. In fact the only place he has not played down the middle is for us. Valencia would have added creativity and a goal threat down the middle with his long range shooting.

Realistically all Rafael was ever going to add there was energy. It was a ridiculous decision. Using that logic it would therefore have made more sense to play Fryers at LB and Evra in midfield alongside his mate Park.

I would argue Evra would have offered much more creativity and technical ability than Rafael would ever have done. There was simply no justification or reasonable logic for starting those players in the positions that he did, that point was proved by his changing back to some semblance of normality at HT.

Unfortunately it seems to be a case of whatever players Fergie picked in whatever positions or system he chose to employ them within, will still be good enough to beat Blackburn at OT. He got it completely wrong. End of.
 
Anderson was fit enough to play a part, so start him in his proper position get the game won then rest him. Fergie made the same mistakes in the CL playing weakened teams to rest players instead of getting the game won first then resting players.
Click to expand...

This shit again. Christ. Constantly bemused at how so many of ye fail to grasp the basic concept of squad rotation. To keep a large squad of players fit/happy you need fringe players to START games, not come on for 20-30 minutes when the game is won. It's also incredibly naive to think that starting with your strongest team will inevitably result in us getting to a position to take our best players off. Fergie's been doing this for years, it's not exactly something he's experimenting with for a laugh.

He's not the only one either. You look at all managers with big squads. They do the same thing. They don't start every game with their best XI players. They START fringe players when they've got easy fixtures. Fixtures like the bottom team in the league at home.

Obviously, the Anderson decision was influenced by his (lack of) fitness but the point stands. This shit about starting your best XI players and subbing them off when we're three nil up at half-time is ridiculously out-dated.
 
apotheosis said:
What? Valencia has played down the middle both for Wigan and for Ecuador. In fact the only place he has not played down the middle is for us. Valencia would have added creativity and a goal threat down the middle with his long range shooting.

Realistically all Rafael was ever going to add there was energy. It was a ridiculous decision. Using that logic it would therefore have made more sense to play Fryers at LB and Evra in midfield alongside his mate Park.

I would argue Evra would have offered much more creativity and technical ability than Rafael would ever have done. There was simply no justification or reasonable logic for starting those players in the positions that he did, that point was proved by his changing back to some semblance of normality at HT.

Unfortunately it seems to be a case of whatever players Fergie picked in whatever positions or system he chose to employ them within, will still be good enough to beat Blackburn at OT. He got it completely wrong. End of.
Click to expand...

I don't really know how's he's performed for those teams in that role but from what I've seen of him for united I would rather stick him wide, whether it be rb or on the wing then put him in central midfield. Rafael as a runner isn't ideal but that was the situation we were in. I don't see what extra creativity he would have added and we would have lost his crossing.

As I said in the team Fergie put out I think it made more sense for Valencia to play right back and Rafael to play in the middle as you can utilise Valencia more. I agree that we looked better in the second half but that had nothing to do with Valencia playing centrally as he didn't play there.

I don't know if he got it completely wrong. We don't fully know the situation with Rooney and Gibson so lets assume they were unavailable. So with the players that were left he could possibly have gambled with starting a youngster or Anderson. But either way the players that played showed in both the first half and second that they had enough to win and it was the sloppyness of the attacking players and the mistakes at the back that cost us. The team that was out there may not have been ideal and it may not have been the best use of our resources but either way it was good enough, the players let the team down more than Fergie did in his selection.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.