According the NewYorker article on football leaks, the fee Raiola received from Pogba's transfer was 49M Euros. That's just absurd and makes sense why he wants to move his clients around.
Pogba Future
- Thread starter wolvored
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Very unlikely, must be a cumulation of fees
His clients don't move around a lot in general but in the case of Pogba iirc Juventus didn't pay the initial signing on fees when he went to Juventus for free and it was supposed to be paid on a future move.
To understand said reactions I would need to find them justifiable and/or based in reality, which I don’t and a substantial amount of said reactions are not, and that’s without mentioning that you are giving an answer to a question I did not raise.
Sorry mate. It was actually a post in line with the comment you responded to. I was sharing an angle to the viewpoint stated. In my head, I can understand why someone takes a position even if I disagree with it or think it is unjustifiable.
I don't know if Pogba will leave but I really want him to leave because he would always want to leave and there is no use keeping an unhappy player and also, there are too much weakness in his game. He's obviously talented because he's highly visionary but his weakness needs a lot of work.
First, his work rate and stamina is something that need to be worked upon, which I doubt could be improved because he's got this langiud laid back style which makes him suitable for the no 10 role (similar to Ozil) however his first touch interplay, agility, movement and speed of thought are not as good hence why he keeps hovering between the no 10 and central midfield role. He's neither a no 10 nor a central midfielder.
Secondly, the weakness I already touched upon which are first touch passing interplay skills, movement and quick speed of thought are also needed in the midfield to control the tempo. Pogba's first instinct to have a feel of the ball before making a pass and his constant love for punting long ball into open space for a runner can only be effective in a counter attacking France setup which had Mbappe as a runner on the wing. If he was a no 6, it would be understandable (I actually feel he plays as a no 6 for France).
But to be able to control the tempo in the midfield as a no 8, a midfielder needs much more than just long passes. His speed of thought must be quick and must always be the right decision and also, he must always be on the move to help to keep the play moving through his passes and movement and also, provide options with his movement and position in the midfield.
Lastly, he should be able to make quick first touch vertical passes into open space in between the lines unless the middle is packed up hence the need to quickly switch play to the wings or make a long pass whenever an opportunity opens up for one however It's not just about making long passes like Pogba loves to do. I have watched Pogba many times and his first touch interplay are just not good enough. Even when he's not making his trademark long passes, his first touch vertical interplay is a bit slow, average and not zappy enough to keep the play flowing. So also is his movement. Obviously, he's not been helped by having a coward in Herrera on the pitch who hardly provides option while Pogba's on the ball and would rather hide until we're no more in possession but still, Pogba needs to do better. He's got talent in other areas such as his creativity/vision and passing range which are good however he's a bit of luxury to have in the midfield and need the midfield to be just perfect for him.
Since he wants to go to Madrid, I would love if we could use him to get Ceballos from Madrid. Let's say 100mil + Ceballos because Pogba would always want to leave like he's been singing all through the season hence it's better we start preparing for a life without him. While Ceballos doesn't have the passing range of Pogba, his first touch vertical interplay is one of the best. Likewise his movement and workrate. He's been much more daring while he's with the Spanish national team than with Madrid where he often withdraw into his shell, probably scared of making mistake. If we could bring in both Ceballos and Van de Beek into the midfield, we already solved our issue in the midfield because they are both incisive, good first touch passer and have got good work rates capped with Tonali at the base of the midfield.
I did a comparison stat with Ceballos, Pogba, Matic, Herrera and Van de Beek (His 2017/2018 stat when he was deployed as a no 8) (the eredivisie is obviously a weak league though but at least the stat shows us what he's capable of.
Very good post.
Based on sense.
As a team and a squad, we would be better off without Pogba. He's creative for 5-8 games per year then he may as well not play the rest.
Dybala and Sandro for Pogba worth a poll @Damien ?
I voted NO. I do want Pogba to go, but LB is not a priority and I don't want/we don't need Dybala.
Nope. Left back at the moment isnt priority, and Dybala would not fit, what I assume will be, a 433 system next season. That, and because Pogba is a superb player.
If Pogba doesn’t want to stay then let him go. No point keeping him if he’s unhappy. Just in my own opinion he doesn’t produce the goods in the vast majority of games - same for other players tbh but, considering the price tag and who he is - if we can cash in then why not in my opinion.
voted no but would vote yes if it was cancelo and dybala,
Who suggested that shite deal?
no thanks.
just buy Dybala separately.
just buy Dybala separately.
Would accept the swap of those two players for Pogba, have Luke Shaw play in front of Sandro, thats the left hand side sorted, move Lukaku on for 50 to 55 mill to Inter Milan, have Martial or DYbala up top.Get rid of Lingaurd. Get in a new right mid and play Rashford as the understudy or both left and right wing.
Have a midfield of Scotty, Fred plus one, then get an experienced defender to partner Linderof, get a right back to rotate with Dalot.
Give or take summner transfer outlay.
Right mid 50mill
Right back 50mill
Centre back £50mill
Outgoings
Lukaku 50 mill and rising
Lingaurd 15 to 20 mill
Total summer outlay: 75 to 100 mill
This would break up the spice boys culture in the dressing room, allowing Rashford to knucke down and hopefully infuse some motivation in Martial, with the opportuntiy of playing up top.
Have a midfield of Scotty, Fred plus one, then get an experienced defender to partner Linderof, get a right back to rotate with Dalot.
Give or take summner transfer outlay.
Right mid 50mill
Right back 50mill
Centre back £50mill
Outgoings
Lukaku 50 mill and rising
Lingaurd 15 to 20 mill
Total summer outlay: 75 to 100 mill
This would break up the spice boys culture in the dressing room, allowing Rashford to knucke down and hopefully infuse some motivation in Martial, with the opportuntiy of playing up top.
I think you forget that he has a 'special moment' almost every match and creates something because of that. Not really his fault that Rashford and Lukaku usually dont do anything with it.
Even the games he gives away a chance he usually also creates one... but again, most of the time the forwards dont do much with it.
His deal was completely different.
Raiola owned part of Pogba's transfer when he moved to Juve, as part of his deal to get him there in the first place.
That was why it took so long for the transfer to go through, Juve refuse to pay the cost. Eventually they did. It wasn't purely just an agent fee.
So he makes up for the chance he gives away with one hance he creates only for forwards to miss it. When you think you heard it all.
I am just trying to point out that he does create something almost every match and not just 5/8 creative games a year. That hardworking, play for the badge type of midfielder people want as a Pogba replacement will have 5/8 creative matches a year .. not Pogba since he will create something basically every match.
What is wrong with my comment anyway? Have you not seen that all almost all United chances start with Pogba and end with Rashford blasting it over or Lukaku pointing after a miss/bad control or when he didnt get the ball exactly the way he wanted it?
He doesn't create something every match. In many matches he just strolls around or tries some Hollywood passes or tries to dribble past 3 players. We don't need to replace him with a hard working mid, who said that anyway. Just with a player or 2 who won't miss half the time.
It's true most of our team was below par this season but Pogba gets every excuse imaginable for his poor form and lack of effort. Lukaku and Rashford missing or miscontrolling his fantastic passes sounds every convenient.
All this is not important if he wants to leave anyway.
Disagree entirely
He's extremely wasteful, has very limited in game decision making and loses possession with ease. More tellingly, when he loses possession he stands there and flaps his arm around rather than working back.
But yes, that's all Rashford and Lukaku's fault I guess. A couple of hopeful long balls a game isn't a "special talent"
He really does - just in the PL this season he created 39 chances (in 21 games), and this doesn't account for all the other creativity he provides. He's a player that can be criticized for sure, but saying he is creative 5-8 games is absurd.
Pogba got 9 assists in the PL last season.
But his expected assists xA total was 5.19.
His expected assists per 90 mins xA90 was 0.15
His key passes per 90 mins was 1.64 (Mata, Martial and Sanchez all had higher numbers for this particular stat)
In simple terms, his team-mates did a very good job of finishing the chances he created. His assists total is also far higher than some other players, due in part, to the vast difference in the number of mins played. Pogba's xA90 figure of 0.15 is very ordinary. Ander Herrera 0.13, Ashley Young 0.14, Luke Shaw 0.15. Lingard 0.17. Mata 0.26
But his expected assists xA total was 5.19.
His expected assists per 90 mins xA90 was 0.15
His key passes per 90 mins was 1.64 (Mata, Martial and Sanchez all had higher numbers for this particular stat)
In simple terms, his team-mates did a very good job of finishing the chances he created. His assists total is also far higher than some other players, due in part, to the vast difference in the number of mins played. Pogba's xA90 figure of 0.15 is very ordinary. Ander Herrera 0.13, Ashley Young 0.14, Luke Shaw 0.15. Lingard 0.17. Mata 0.26
A very good example of why the xA xG stats are complete and utter rubbish. Just watch with your eyes, you will see plenty of chances were missed created by Pogba
I wouldn't take Dybala and Sandro but instead have them pay us cash.
If he doesnt want to stay, i would take Dybala and Pjanic or Dybala and Cancelo. Otherwise sell for money
Creativity isn't just about assists. And re the bolded part, you just need to look at games to know that's ludicrous.
A very good example of why the xA xG stats are complete and utter rubbish. Just watch with your eyes, you will see plenty of chances were missed created by Pogba
Or perhaps that some people fail to understand what they mean. Even elite players miss chances. Keepers make save. If Pogba was creating fantastic chances that our strikers were missing, relative to the quality of the chances they were taking, then his xA figure would be higher than his number of assists, as happened during his first season under Mourinho.
Again watching and looking at stats....
Our players missed plenty this season which is why the stat isn't full proof and should not be relied upon.
For instance expected is based on the quality of the chance, however how do they evaluate that and do they do it accurately. S
tats should be only there to help and then you go and look for the visual evidence (That is a quote from Sven Msslintat by the way)
It is not ludicrous at all. You are focusing too much on the chances that were missed, while ignoring the goals that were scored from Pogba's pass. Take Fred's goal against Wolves as an example. Pogba did a clever flick pass but he didn't create a great chance for Fred, yet Fred managed to shoot right in the corner to score. The xG for Fred's shot was 0.08.
Your one isolated example has convinced me Pogba isn't a creative player. Thank you.
I have watched every minute of every match this season except for a few mins during the home game against Newcastle.
For some unknown reason you seem to believe that strikers should take almost every opportunity they get, even though no striker ever does. Even the likes of Messi and Ronaldo miss tons of chances.
If a player creates a lot of chances per game then he will typically have a high number of key passes per 90 mins. If he creates high quality chances then he will have a high xA90 figure.
Of course thats exactly what I said...The last line is typically yes, depending on what they class as a high quality chance, its quite simple what I am saying.
At no point have I said that Pogba isn't a creative player, nor have I stated that key passes/expected assists is the same as creativity.
Wow I'm glad I don't analyse football through any other stats than goals, assists, possession, corners etc.
There's no stat that shows what your eyes see. The lack of gameplan and movement in our team.
Apologies then, mixing you with that other poster who said he was creative 5-8 games per season!
A very good example of why the xA xG stats are complete and utter rubbish. Just watch with your eyes, you will see plenty of chances were missed created by Pogba
Of course plenty of chances were missed created by Pogba; that's football. Players miss chances.
In Pogba's case, United players also scored goals from Pogba passes that weren't much of an opportunity to score. There are plenty of other United players for whom that didn't occur.
So your line: "In simple terms, his team-mates did a very good job of finishing the chances he created" I am saying it not correct IMO. Those passes you're talking about I wouldn't class as chances created.
No where did I say anything about strikers taking every opportunity they get. However if Pogba puts you through on goal with only the keeper to beat and you don't score (happened quite a few times this season) then the above line to me doesn't hold.
That along with various other things. I'm simply pointing out to you that the stat has a floor, which is determining the quality of a chance.
Also pointing out that the eye test on your statement to me doens't hold
I concede you are correct. My sentence was poorly constructed so it didn't adequately cover what I was trying to say. Apologies for my error.
He created several very good chances that they failed to take. But they also scored goals from situations that weren't great opportunities.
I also agree with your earlier point about the flaws in various stats. They are far from perfect.
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Pogba <---> Dybala + Sandro makes no sense at all. It's obvious that Juve regret letting Paul go and are desperate to bring him back, but this offer is outright insulting. Also, I have doubts about Dybala's ability to perform without PP. Even though Paul's market value according to transfermarkt is 81 million, anyone who watches him regulary knows it's easily twice as much. Juve are known for collecting PL rejects (Evra, Tevez, Cuadrado, Can, Ramsey) so what we should propose is:
Lukaku (76.5 m) + Matic (31.5 m) + Darmain (9 m) < ---> Dybala (90 m) + Matuidi (27 m) + Chiellini (9 m)
I know that Matuidi and Chiellini are not the youngest players out there, but we could use some experience and leadership. Our veterans like Young have no personality at all, let alone leadership qualities. If such triple swap deal isn't possible, we should try Lukaku <---> Dybala straight swap.
Lukaku (76.5 m) + Matic (31.5 m) + Darmain (9 m) < ---> Dybala (90 m) + Matuidi (27 m) + Chiellini (9 m)
I know that Matuidi and Chiellini are not the youngest players out there, but we could use some experience and leadership. Our veterans like Young have no personality at all, let alone leadership qualities. If such triple swap deal isn't possible, we should try Lukaku <---> Dybala straight swap.
Dybala and Sandro, no way.
Dybala and Cancelo would be a different case entirely though.
Dybala and Cancelo would be a different case entirely though.