Phil Jones Future | Reports: Observing United academy sessions

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ivaldo said:
How would it be cheaper? We would have to buy him out of his contract so it would cost the same.
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Would save a fortune on all the medical costs. Not only treatment costs but also the physios, psychologists, consultants etc. working on him all year long.

It's like neglecting a credit card debt out of laziness and watching on as the high interest rates put you in deeper trouble.
 
Wonder if when his contract is up they will give him another one to keep his value up?
 
Given all the physical and emotional barriers Jones has had to overcome this last decade, a proper knighthood is in order.

Sir Phil Jones
 
The lads heads surely gone. Noone is ever this injured. Reckon he's hiding abit and if that's the case I do feel for him.

Needs a low key move out
 
Samid said:
Would save a fortune on all the medical costs. Not only treatment costs but also the physios, psychologists, consultants etc. working on him all year long.

It's like neglecting a credit card debt out of laziness and watching on as the high interest rates put you in deeper trouble.
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Do we not employ medical professionals any more? Are they all paid hourly or something?

Nah. It's more like a car you have on a 2 year lease. We can pay the full amount up front now and return it, or we can hang on to in case we need it, paying monthly at no extra cost. We already pay for the storage unit, and besides getting someone we already pay to occasionally check under the bonet, it's not doing any harm.

Jones, despite the vitriol thrown at him in this place, is an experienced defender who knows what it's like to win medals. He's one of the few players we have in the squad that's won a Premier League Medal. He has a lot he can offer the younger players in the squad. If we already have to pay his wages, in full, we might as well make use of him.
 
His future will read for the time being, Liverpool prem titles 1, Phil Jone 1. His future will always read, gerrard and caraghar prem titles 0, phil jones 1. Heck he probably has more trophies than them too.

On a serious level, he should get himself to the championship, get 3 or 4 years more out of his career.
 
On the one hand, I’m gutted for him for all the injuries he’s had that obviously lower that ceiling of potential.

On the other hand, if he wants to play football then move to another club and take the paycut... otherwise you’re clearly in it for the money and sympathy is reduced.
 
ivaldo said:
Do we not employ medical professionals any more? Are they all paid hourly or something?

Nah. It's more like a car you have on a 2 year lease. We can pay the full amount up front now and return it, or we can hang on to in case we need it, paying monthly at no extra cost. We already pay for the storage unit, and besides getting someone we already pay to occasionally check under the bonet, it's not doing any harm.

Jones, despite the vitriol thrown at him in this place, is an experienced defender who knows what it's like to win medals. He's one of the few players we have in the squad that's won a Premier League Medal. He has a lot he can offer the younger players in the squad. If we already have to pay his wages, in full, we might as well make use of him.
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It's like leasing an old Fiat and expecting it to work like 2021 Bugatti Chiron. That check under the bonnet isn't occasional but regular. In fact you need to say your prayers every time before starting the engine because chances are it'll break down when you least expect it. At a certain point you realise the Fiat is way more trouble than it's worth.

I'm not saying we have to terminate his contract, just that I don't see any value in keeping him. He played 1200 minutes (13 full games) for a title winning team 8 years ago. 720 of those minutes came in the final 8 games where the title was already done and dusted. He was pretty much a fringe player for most of that campaign. You're overselling him as if he was peak Rio/Vidic with wealth of experience and a winner's mentality. Realistically what can the youngsters even learn from him that they can't from the likes of DDG, Matic, Mata, Cavani? If anything I'd rather they learn from Maguire who makes himself available for every single game and even plays through the pain barrier if he has to than a player who is the polar opposite.

Pretty sad that there's a player on 75k per week on our books and the best use we can come up with is that he might be able to pass on some experience to younger players.
 
Samid said:
Would save a fortune on all the medical costs. Not only treatment costs but also the physios, psychologists, consultants etc. working on him all year long.

It's like neglecting a credit card debt out of laziness and watching on as the high interest rates put you in deeper trouble.
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For tax reasons I assume its better to have an expense that reduces the overall profit in more than one year. Also, because of inflation, usually one dollar today is more than one dollar in 2 years so if we have to pay his wages fully now, is preferably to just pay him until the contract runs out. Ideally, we would reach an agreement to pay 75% of his wages.
 
What if Phil gets a runout, even against a lower table side, and puts in a Vidicesque performance? And then does it again?
 
led_scholes said:
For tax reasons I assume its better to have an expense that reduces the overall profit in more than one year. Also, because of inflation, usually one dollar today is more than one dollar in 2 years so if we have to pay his wages fully now, is preferably to just pay him until the contract runs out. Ideally, we would reach an agreement to pay 75% of his wages.
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Valid point about inflation but that contradicts with your first point. If one dollar is worth more today than in 2 years' time then that surely neutralises (to an extent) the need to keep expenses evenly spread out? Lower profit this year mean you'll have to fork out less in taxes while that one dollar still is worth one dollar? Seems like swings and roundabouts.

It's getting late so I'm probably missing something obvious.
 
lex talionis said:
What if Phil gets a runout, even against a lower table side, and puts in a Vidicesque performance? And then does it again?
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Seems possible. He's been at the club two years longer than Vidic ever was. United legend.

I can't wait for the gurning statue.
 
Samid said:
It's like leasing an old Fiat and expecting it to work like 2021 Bugatti Chiron. That check under the bonnet isn't occasional but regular. In fact you need to say your prayers every time before starting the engine because chances are it'll break down when you least expect it. At a certain point you realise the Fiat is way more trouble than it's worth.

I'm not saying we have to terminate his contract, just that I don't see any value in keeping him. He played 1200 minutes (13 full games) for a title winning team 8 years ago. 720 of those minutes came in the final 8 games where the title was already done and dusted. He was pretty much a fringe player for most of that campaign. You're overselling him as if he was peak Rio/Vidic with wealth of experience and a winner's mentality. Realistically what can the youngsters even learn from him that they can't from the likes of DDG, Matic, Mata, Cavani? If anything I'd rather they learn from Maguire who makes himself available for every single game and even plays through the pain barrier if he has to than a player who is the polar opposite.

Pretty sad that there's a player on 75k per week on our books and the best use we can come up with is that he might be able to pass on some experience to younger players.
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So you took me saying he is 'an experienced defender who knows what it's like to win medals,' as comparing him to 'peak Rio/Vidic?' You go ahead and smash that strawman to bits!

Again, where did I say we should expect him to be like a Chiron? Are you replying to the right post? We're paying for him one way or another. That never changes. If we're paying for a Chiron and we've got an old Fiat, that isn't going to change if we hand it back early. We're still got to pay it up, in full. The same amount.

Well you are saying we should terminate his contract. That's the point of of this discussion. I'm saying we don't gain anything by terminating it early. We lose a bit of experience in the squad, we lose a PL winner and we gain nothing. You think we would save a 'fortune' in costs on the physios we are going to be paying one way or another. Doesn't make sense. Theres also a slim chance we might actually need him if we have a spate of injuries to CB down the line. Bailly and Tuanzebe are hardly immune to injuries.

Yes, it is pretty sad, but what does it have to do with the discussion? Paying him off won't suddenly improve our squad. Not a single metric indicates an improvement if we get rid now. And as another poster quite rightly points out, in real terms, it's going to cost us more. That 75k is going to cost us less in 2 years time.

Ideally, he gets himself fit, feels the need to move on and play football, and we can let him sign elsewhere for free or subsidize his wages. Selling him now removes all those possibilities.
 
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Will he fulfill his potential as the next Duncan Edwards?

I bet he will. Putting all my money on this.
 
ivaldo said:
So you took me saying he is 'an experienced defender who knows what it's like to win medals,' as comparing him to 'peak Rio/Vidic?' You go ahead and smash that strawman to bits!

Again, where did I say we should expect him to be like a Chiron? Are you replying to the right post? We're paying for him one way or another. That never changes. If we're paying for a Chiron and we've got an old Fiat, that isn't going to change if we hand it back early. We're still got to pay it up, in full. The same amount.

Well you are saying we should terminate his contract. That's the point of of this discussion. I'm saying we don't gain anything by terminating it early. We lose a bit of experience in the squad, we lose a PL winner and we gain nothing. You think we would save a 'fortune' in costs on the physios we are going to be paying one way or another. Doesn't make sense. Theres also a slim chance we might actually need him if we have a spate of injuries to CB down the line. Bailly and Tuanzebe are hardly immune to injuries.

Yes, it is pretty sad, but what does it have to do with the discussion? Paying him off won't suddenly improve our squad. Not a single metric indicates an improvement if we get rid now. And as another poster quite rightly points out, in real terms, it's going to cost us more. That 75k is going to cost us less in 2 years time.

Ideally, he gets himself fit, feels the need to move on and play football, and we can let him sign elsewhere for free or subsidize his wages. Selling him now removes all those possibilities.
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One of the worst statements I have read on this forum in a long time. Since when has Phil fecking Jones been in the squad.
 
ivaldo said:
So you took me saying he is 'an experienced defender who knows what it's like to win medals,' as comparing him to 'peak Rio/Vidic?' You go ahead and smash that strawman to bits!

Again, where did I say we should expect him to be like a Chiron? Are you replying to the right post? We're paying for him one way or another. That never changes. If we're paying for a Chiron and we've got an old Fiat, that isn't going to change if we hand it back early. We're still got to pay it up, in full. The same amount.

Well you are saying we should terminate his contract. That's the point of of this discussion. I'm saying we don't gain anything by terminating it early. We lose a bit of experience in the squad, we lose a PL winner and we gain nothing. You think we would save a 'fortune' in costs on the physios we are going to be paying one way or another. Doesn't make sense. Theres also a slim chance we might actually need him if we have a spate of injuries to CB down the line. Bailly and Tuanzebe are hardly immune to injuries.

Yes, it is pretty sad, but what does it have to do with the discussion? Paying him off won't suddenly improve our squad. Not a single metric indicates an improvement if we get rid now. And as another poster quite rightly points out, in real terms, it's going to cost us more. That 75k is going to cost us less in 2 years time.

Ideally, he gets himself fit, feels the need to move on and play football, and we can let him sign elsewhere for free or subsidize his wages. Selling him now removes all those possibilities.
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Good post!
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
Only 29
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He should be in the prime of his playing career right now. Obviously, the money is great yadda yadda but it must be mentally devastating to experience such a downward spiral. Hope he manages to salvage something of his playing career.
 
Samid said:
Valid point about inflation but that contradicts with your first point. If one dollar is worth more today than in 2 years' time then that surely neutralises (to an extent) the need to keep expenses evenly spread out? Lower profit this year mean you'll have to fork out less in taxes while that one dollar still is worth one dollar? Seems like swings and roundabouts.

It's getting late so I'm probably missing something obvious.
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I guess about the tax was more a general thought of mine yesterday, because Phil Jones cannot affect cash flows that much, so probably it doesn't matter. In any case, United is the loser in this situation since it pays a player that probably wont play more than 5 games till his contact runs out.
 
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red4ever 79 said:
not really. My job demands a lot of that and I excel in my profession. Spouting nonsense is something you excel at.
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Sure you do.

Look at me everyone, I have a job! Braggart.
 
Do we have a reserve team who Jones can play for?

Is it done where a 29 year old plays for under 23's etc?

I would like to see him get a run of games for the reserves to see if he is just on course for another injury. If he is staying fit then he can make the step up to the first team and try put a valuable performance in.

But I doubt these reserve teams are actually available.
 
Bebestation said:
Do we have a reserve team who Jones can play for?

Is it done where a 29 year old plays for under 23's etc?

I would like to see him get a run of games for the reserves to see if he is just on course for another injury. If he is staying fit then he can make the step up to the first team and try put a valuable performance in.

But I doubt these reserve teams are actually available.
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Think he can play there. Wasn't Danny Drinkwater involved in a fight with some 12 year old from Spurs a couple of months ago?

Feel for Jones. He is a liability, but he's been done over by injuries and I've never known a player come in for so much online abuse over stuff that is really pretty much out of his control. Must have had an impact, that.
 
ivaldo said:
So you took me saying he is 'an experienced defender who knows what it's like to win medals,' as comparing him to 'peak Rio/Vidic?' You go ahead and smash that strawman to bits!

Again, where did I say we should expect him to be like a Chiron? Are you replying to the right post? We're paying for him one way or another. That never changes. If we're paying for a Chiron and we've got an old Fiat, that isn't going to change if we hand it back early. We're still got to pay it up, in full. The same amount.

Well you are saying we should terminate his contract. That's the point of of this discussion. I'm saying we don't gain anything by terminating it early. We lose a bit of experience in the squad, we lose a PL winner and we gain nothing. You think we would save a 'fortune' in costs on the physios we are going to be paying one way or another. Doesn't make sense. Theres also a slim chance we might actually need him if we have a spate of injuries to CB down the line. Bailly and Tuanzebe are hardly immune to injuries.

Yes, it is pretty sad, but what does it have to do with the discussion? Paying him off won't suddenly improve our squad. Not a single metric indicates an improvement if we get rid now. And as another poster quite rightly points out, in real terms, it's going to cost us more. That 75k is going to cost us less in 2 years time.

Ideally, he gets himself fit, feels the need to move on and play football, and we can let him sign elsewhere for free or subsidize his wages. Selling him now removes all those possibilities.
Click to expand...

You've completely missed my point so if anything it's you using that strawman. I never said we should terminate his contract, those were the words of the first poster you quoted. You claimed terminating his contract right now would cost the same as seeing the contract out. My response was that it wouldn't because the maintenance costs of a Phil Jones are high. And from that you've drawn a strawman conclusion that I want his contract terminated. My opinion is neither seeing out the contract nor terminating it right now but to get rid in the summer.

Time is money. All the specialists working with him on a regular basis aren't doing so for free. Athletes in rehab see quite a few specialists and this is a guy who is in rehab for several months every year. I would be stunned if we've spent anything less than a seven digit figure on his fitness alone over the years. Saying that we would be paying those specialists 'one way or another' is simply not true. These are often consultants that only charge for the work they do. Even if some of them are full time employees they're still wasting their expertise regularly on a player that offers nothing in return to the club. The return on investment on this bloke is shockingly bad and a complete waste of everyone's time.

If the situation is unchanged beyond the summer window then it's time to seriously think about termination imo. Then the player has had more than enough chances to force a move, lower his demands etc. For me that would be the final confirmation that he's comfortable sitting on his arse, collecting 75k p/w while the club's facilities and money to nurture his injuries. Sometimes it's best to admit defeat and cut your losses.

If we win trophies this year and Jones plays a vital role either on the pitch or there is proof of him being a dressing room motivator then feel free to quote me. I'm not holding my breath.
 
Bebestation said:
Do we have a reserve team who Jones can play for?

Is it done where a 29 year old plays for under 23's etc?

I would like to see him get a run of games for the reserves to see if he is just on course for another injury. If he is staying fit then he can make the step up to the first team and try put a valuable performance in.

But I doubt these reserve teams are actually available.
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Should have loan him to Liverpool, they are so desperate for CB.
 
Hopefully they ease social distancing in time for his testimonial so that it’s the first game fans can attend at OT. Would be a full house for him!
 
The 'Divine wind' ( or Kamikaze Phil) is back in the squad... they're all talking about the Jones boy...the Jones boy... When he retires he will become the personal trainer for Bailly.
 
Samid said:
You've completely missed my point so if anything it's you using that strawman. I never said we should terminate his contract, those were the words of the first poster you quoted. You claimed terminating his contract right now would cost the same as seeing the contract out. My response was that it wouldn't because the maintenance costs of a Phil Jones are high. And from that you've drawn a strawman conclusion that I want his contract terminated. My opinion is neither seeing out the contract nor terminating it right now but to get rid in the summer.

Time is money. All the specialists working with him on a regular basis aren't doing so for free. Athletes in rehab see quite a few specialists and this is a guy who is in rehab for several months every year. I would be stunned if we've spent anything less than a seven digit figure on his fitness alone over the years. Saying that we would be paying those specialists 'one way or another' is simply not true. These are often consultants that only charge for the work they do. Even if some of them are full time employees they're still wasting their expertise regularly on a player that offers nothing in return to the club. The return on investment on this bloke is shockingly bad and a complete waste of everyone's time.

If the situation is unchanged beyond the summer window then it's time to seriously think about termination imo. Then the player has had more than enough chances to force a move, lower his demands etc. For me that would be the final confirmation that he's comfortable sitting on his arse, collecting 75k p/w while the club's facilities and money to nurture his injuries. Sometimes it's best to admit defeat and cut your losses.

If we win trophies this year and Jones plays a vital role either on the pitch or there is proof of him being a dressing room motivator then feel free to quote me. I'm not holding my breath.
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Let me get this straight. So you think he's a financial burden to the club, that he has nothing to offer the team, but you don't want to terminate his contract now? You want to wait until the Summer, so that he can be a financial burden on us for just a little bit longer. That doesn't make any sense. You know that, right?

Conversely, if you think that he has something to offer, then it's nonsensical to pay him up in full now, because he can no longer offer it. That money would be a lump sum, for which we would no longer earn interest on. We also need to take into account inflation, as mentioned previously. That's why clubs very rarely release players from their contracts and pay up in full. It's the reason why players like Winston Bogarde were able to run down their contracts.

We are one of the biggest sport clubs in the world. We aren't bringing in specialists on a regular basis and paying a huge premium to do so. We employ them, or at the very least, we are paying a retainer.

Why does it have to be a vital role? If he contributions anything, then it's better than nothing, which is the alternative.
 
ivaldo said:
Sure you do.

Look at me everyone, I have a job! Braggart.
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Nah it's just common sense. His last game was January 2020. In the past 12 months Utd have comfortably (results wise) been in the top 2 of English football. We dont miss this guy whatsoever.

Premier league appearances

SeasonClubApps (Subs)GoalsMore
2020/2021Manchester United0 (0)0
2019/2020Manchester United2 (0)0
 
red4ever 79 said:
Nah it's just common sense. His last game was January 2020. In the past 12 months Utd have comfortably (results wise) been in the top 2 of English football. We dont miss this guy whatsoever.

Premier league appearances

SeasonClubApps (Subs)GoalsMore
2020/2021Manchester United0 (0)0
2019/2020Manchester United2 (0)0
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Cool. I'll give you another chance to find the point. When you're ready, come back to me, and we'll give it another go. K?
 
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