'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

RooneyLegend said:
No one could have predicted what happened at Barca and taking that credit away from him doesn't make sense. Those players who were amazing became just that under his tutelage. At Bayern I was personally never impressed by him. Felt he didn't improve them at all but then again they really couldn't improve from where he found them.

Now let's look at his city stint. A lot of what hes bought isn't players that would have you enviously looking at the transfers but he moulded them into an amazing team. Achieved domestic feats that haven't been seen in this league. On top of that

Are they rich? Obviously but they've been rich for quite some time. They didn't threaten these levels. Chelsea''s spending was unprecedented too when Roman first took over and they didn't scale these levels either.

You'd think out of all fans in the world we'd be the ones to recognise a great job being done despite resources cause we've seen a catalogue of managers pis away huge resources in order to establish us as a Europa club. I guess that's not the case.
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Pep inherited a team that was regularly winning the league and domestic cups, spent a huge amount of money, and went on to regularly win the league and domestic cups. He hasn’t made them, they were already one of the top teams in the world. Yeah, he’s accumulated more points than other teams before, but that’s what having more resources than the other teams before will do for you. It won’t be the last time we see silly points totals from City, what with their unlimited wealth and legal loopholes.
 
RUCK4444 said:
There’s definitely a portion of luck involved though, he happened to have arguably the GOAT in Messi combined with the best midfield in history in Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets.

Not to mention legends like Pique, Puyol

He plays a good style of football and absolutely deserves credit for getting the best from that team, they were special. The best team I’ve ever seen and probably the best club side in history, but he had some very good players to work with.

Rijkaard built that team and almost any manager would have done special things with that side. But I still give Pep respect for that period of success.
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He dismantled Rijkaard's team. It's like giving Jose credit for Ole's team because Jose was second 5 months before Ole took over.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
So style of play is more important than winning trophies? Fair enough if the others style was like Mourinho but they played brilliant football under all 3 hence winning the CL does cut it because it is not the only measurement.
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Discussion seems impossible so I‘m gonna leave it at this:
You can hire one of the following 3 managers for your club. Pep, Heynckess, Flick. Pretend that they are of equal age. Who do you pick? I‘d go Pep in a heartbeat and I imagine the majority agrees.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
He dismantled Rijkaard's team. It's like giving Jose credit for Ole's team because Jose was second 5 months before Ole took over.
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Dismantled by keeping the spine and all the best players? Including the best midfield in world football and perhaps the greatest player in history?

C’mon. He gets credit but you can’t say the above didn’t help a massive amount.

He still built the team in his image and style of play, which I give him lots of credit for, I just don’t think you can ignore the core of that team and the key players already being there.
 
RooneyLegend said:
No one could have predicted what happened at Barca and taking that credit away from him doesn't make sense. Those players who were amazing became just that under his tutelage. At Bayern I was personally never impressed by him. Felt he didn't improve them at all but then again they really couldn't improve from where he found them.

Now let's look at his city stint. A lot of what hes bought isn't players that would have you enviously looking at the transfers but he moulded them into an amazing team. Achieved domestic feats that haven't been seen in this league. On top of that

Are they rich? Obviously but they've been rich for quite some time. They didn't threaten these levels. Chelsea''s spending was unprecedented too when Roman first took over and they didn't scale these levels either.

You'd think out of all fans in the world we'd be the ones to recognise a great job being done despite resources cause we've seen a catalogue of managers pis away huge resources in order to establish us as a Europa club. I guess that's not the case.
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Liverpool were just 3 points away from that total the very next season, and just 1 point away the season after that.
Personally I think it tells much more about how weak the league has been these past few seasons, as does Leicester winning the league.

Chelsea picked up 93 points in 2017 with their worst title winning side by some distance.
 
Feel like the same 3/4 pages just keep getting recycled everything 2/3 months in this thread.
 
robinamicrowave said:
Feel like the same 3/4 pages just keep getting recycled everything 2/3 months in this thread.
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You have to love it. Lose a game or two and Guardiola is the biggest fraud ever, win a couple and his spending is back on topic. Then argue that no, he's actually great. But no. But yes.

And the "Pep's spending is insane" kind of serves the same purpose.
 
SqualorVictoria said:
You have to love it. Lose a game or two and Guardiola is the biggest fraud ever, win a couple and his spending is back on topic. Then argue that no, he's actually great. But no. But yes.

And the "Pep's spending is insane" kind of serves the same purpose.
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Win at Anfield tomorrow and we'll be back round to sportswashing.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
I didn't ask you.

But would you really put Pep's stint at Bayern above 2 managers stints that seen them win league and CL?
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As Chelsea coach
Who will you rank as the best coach

Mourinho, Dimatteo, Conte, Ancelotti

Take note, only one of them won the CL
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Liverpool were just 3 points away from that total the very next season, and just 1 point away the season after that.
Personally I think it tells much more about how weak the league has been these past few seasons, as does Leicester winning the league.

Chelsea picked up 93 points in 2017 with their worst title winning side by some distance.
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How can Chelsea 2017 that had one of the longest run in the league be one of the worst? How were they worse than the 2015 winning side
 
Of course the money is a help. City spend more than almost any club in the world- that's a fact.

But do I honestly believe that any other manager in the world could have achieved what Pep has with City, given the same resources? No. I don't think they could. In my book, that's what makes him special. I certainly don't agree with those who think his job is easy, in any way, shape or form.
 
SER19 said:
This isn't the discussion or the point im making. I'm talking about individual managers at a single club. Why would di Maria and schneiderlin be relevant to a discussion about solskjaer who has spent 300m? And was 9th when took over with a near full squad overhaul needed.

This United spending failure gets trotted out even when not relevant.
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Don't worry, you'll learn soon enough that Solskjaer isnt getting us there any time soon either.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Liverpool were just 3 points away from that total the very next season, and just 1 point away the season after that.
Personally I think it tells much more about how weak the league has been these past few seasons, as does Leicester winning the league.

Chelsea picked up 93 points in 2017 with their worst title winning side by some distance.
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Klopp is a guy that waxed one of the most expensive teams ever assembled, coached by Mou in the CL with a team built on a shoe string. He's also a guy that beat a Jupp Heynckes lead Bayern to the title. The man is also an all time great. It's not all that surprising he could also do all that. No one else is reaching those numbers though.

Thought that Chelsea team was very good but that's just me.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Klopp is a guy that waxed one of the most expensive teams ever assembled, coached by Mou in the CL with a team built on a shoe string. He's also a guy that beat a Jupp Heynckes lead Bayern to the title. The man is also an all time great. It's not all that surprising he could also do all that. No one else is reaching those numbers though.

Thought that Chelsea team was very good but that's just me.
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Agree 100%. Was a really good side, if not for a Jose meltdown season they'd have gotten 3 Premier League titles in a row with City and United all over the place, Spurs conspiring to Spurs it up, Klopp finding his feet and an average Arsenal coming 2nd in the Leicester season.. All they needed was to not implode but Jose gonna Jose.
 
Pep gets judged to a higher standard because of his reputation, the team he inherited and the spending subsequently to reinforce his squad.

City are in outstanding form now, but - to my mind - he is performing at around par for the course.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Liverpool were just 3 points away from that total the very next season, and just 1 point away the season after that.
Personally I think it tells much more about how weak the league has been these past few seasons, as does Leicester winning the league.

Chelsea picked up 93 points in 2017 with their worst title winning side by some distance.
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kaiser1 said:
How can Chelsea 2017 that had one of the longest run in the league be one of the worst? How were they worse than the 2015 winning side
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This is the point he is making. Teams don't go on huge winning runs & rack up huge points totals in high quality competitive leagues. Most people regard the Utd 2008 team as the best in PL history. This team only managed 87 pts & there was only an 11 pt gap separating 1st & 4th.

In 17/18 there was a 19 pt gap between 1st & 2nd. In 18/19 there was a 25 pt gap between 2nd & 3rd. This doesn't happen in competitive leagues.
 
kaiser1 said:
As Chelsea coach
Who will you rank as the best coach

Mourinho, Dimatteo, Conte, Ancelotti

Take note, only one of them won the CL
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But he only won the CL alone. Winning the league and CL double means you did better at that club than the others. If the managers all won the same domestic trophies, then the one who wins the CL on top of that is clearly the one who did the best job.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
But he only won the CL alone. Winning the league and CL double means you did better at that club than the others. If the managers all won the same domestic trophies, then the one who wins the CL on top of that is clearly the one who did the best job.
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Klopp has never won a double he won the CL one season and league the next. A coach who wins the league and one who wins the CL who will get rated higher?
 
ExecutionerWasp001 said:
This is the point he is making. Teams don't go on huge winning runs & rack up huge points totals in high quality competitive leagues. Most people regard the Utd 2008 team as the best in PL history. This team only managed 87 pts & there was only an 11 pt gap separating 1st & 4th.

In 17/18 there was a 19 pt gap between 1st & 2nd. In 18/19 there was a 25 pt gap between 2nd & 3rd. This doesn't happen in competitive leagues.
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United won the league by 18 points in 99/00 and are easily acknowledged as one of the best teams of all time. I would say United 08-11 would still be better than current Liverpool/City but anyone who thinks that City/Liverpool wouldn't comfortably out point any other team in the division in that era bar maybe Ancelotti's Chelsea are miles off. The higher points total nowadays is to do with transitition away from the defensive styles of the leagues weaker teams. Nowadays Burnley are known for their shithousery.

In 2009 Paul Ince, Tony Adams, Juande Ramos, Alan Curbishley, Joe Kinnear, Harry Redknapp, Big Sam, Ricky Sbragia, Paul Hart, Phil Brown, Rafa, Tony Pulis and Gary Megson all managed in the premier league.
 
kaiser1 said:
Klopp has never won a double he won the CL one season and league the next. A coach who wins the league and one who wins the CL who will get rated higher?
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I am not about who is a better manager, I am talking about a manager who wins a league and CL double in one season has obviously had a better season than someone who only wins one of the two in one season.
 
el3mel said:
No fecking way Bayern fans will prefer Pep to Heynckes.
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Managerial ability is a mixture of two dozen skills at the bare minimum. Objectively speaking I believe Pep was better at a majority of aspects of the coaching job than Heynckes. We played by far the most aesthetically pleasing and dominant football I have ever seen Bayern play during Pep's tenure. However he had one fatal flaw in Munich. He did not trust his players, micro-managed them, his communication skills were lacking and it showed in the big games in April in May. At the same time let's also admit for a moment that his three exits from the CL were not solely caused by his tactics. A player revolt, individual players falling asleep during set-pieces, bad luck, the decline of former world-class players, tons of injuries and a missed penalty kick also played significant roles.

However since most Bayern fans and the front-office are ultimately obsessed with winning the Champions League we'd pick Heynckes because he's the ultimate coach to shape a team for the knock-out stages in April and May. However that doesn't automatically mean he's better than Pep.
 
el3mel said:
No fecking way Bayern fans will prefer Pep to Heynckes.
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People always judge Heynckes by that *one* season, disregarding, for example, the very last season before it where we won nothing, feck all. Yes, he led us to one of our two greatest achievements, but no, the football was not consistently better than Pep's.
 
Bazi said:
Managerial ability is a mixture of two dozen skills at the bare minimum. Objectively speaking I believe Pep was better at a majority of aspects of the coaching job than Heynckes. We played by far the most aesthetically pleasing and dominant football I have ever seen Bayern play during Pep's tenure. However he had one fatal flaw in Munich. He did not trust his players, micro-managed them, his communication skills were lacking and it showed in the big games in April in May. At the same time let's also admit for a moment that his three exits from the CL were not solely caused by his tactics. A player revolt, individual players falling asleep during set-pieces, bad luck, the decline of former world-class players, tons of injuries and a missed penalty kick also played significant roles.

However since most Bayern fans and the front-office are ultimately obsessed with winning the Champions League we'd pick Heynckes because he's the ultimate coach to shape a team for the knock-out stages in April and May. However that doesn't automatically mean he's better than Pep.
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GhastlyHun said:
People always judge Heynckes by that *one* season, disregarding, for example, the very last season before it where we won nothing, feck all. Yes, he led us to one of our two greatest achievements, but no, the football was not consistently better than Pep's.
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I actually do believe Pep is a better manager than Heynckes from quality wise and will go in history higher in ranking than him, but I always thought you guys considered Heynckes to be a legend of managing at Bayern considering how many times he had managed you ?
 
el3mel said:
I actually do believe Pep is a better manager than Heynckes from quality wise and will go in history higher in ranking than him, but I always thought you guys considered Heynckes to be a legend of managing at Bayern considering how many times he had managed you ?
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Sure, he is one of the most successful and best Bayern coaches ever and thus deserves a place of honor. He was also sacked the first time around after four years at Bayern, which never factors into these discussions. As I've said before, when people rate Heynckes as the best Bayern coach ever, they usually just take 2012/13 and dismiss everything else.
 
He has become more pragmatic and it's benefitting City massively. They now know when to control possession and when to back track and defend during the game. They don't play a single set system no matter what players are available thus they're not struggling due to losing KDB or Aguero and this is Pep's touch. Even in this age and after all these achievements he's actually still evolving as a manager. I know people will talk about their depth and money spent but his management of their team recently has been class.
 
el3mel said:
He has become more pragmatic and it's benefitting City massively. They now know when to control possession and when to back track and defend during the game. They don't play a single set system no matter what players are available thus they're not struggling due to losing KDB or Aguero and this is Pep's touch. Even in this age and after all these achievements he's actually still evolving as a manager. I know people will talk about their depth and money spent but his management of their team recently has been class.
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Not so sure he deserves all the tactical genius parts. They just bought a very good defender in Dias, and lead because the league is a mess and everyone loses points. Hats off to Pep for making Stones a good defender too though. But to be fair they've mostly bought their way into succes again. He's coached Gundogan, Stones, Cancelo well this season but they looked very off in the first 10-15 games. Sterling not his usual self, KdB not his usual self if you look at the whole season.
 
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el3mel said:
He has become more pragmatic and it's benefitting City massively. They now know when to control possession and when to back track and defend during the game. They don't play a single set system no matter what players are available thus they're not struggling due to losing KDB or Aguero and this is Pep's touch. Even in this age and after all these achievements he's actually still evolving as a manager. I know people will talk about their depth and money spent but his management of their team recently has been class.
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He's also going to make it 3 titles in the last 4 years. Add to that the other domestic trophies he's won and he's again showing what a brilliant manager he is. Liverpool and Klopp won one and E everyone lost their shit and City have strolled back to take control. Purely from a tactical standpoint would love for us to be as well drilled as them. Such a shame how they've become the dominant team in Manchester and the PL, following SAFs retirement. Need to set that straight.
 
el3mel said:
He has become more pragmatic and it's benefitting City massively. They now know when to control possession and when to back track and defend during the game. They don't play a single set system no matter what players are available thus they're not struggling due to losing KDB or Aguero and this is Pep's touch. Even in this age and after all these achievements he's actually still evolving as a manager. I know people will talk about their depth and money spent but his management of their team recently has been class.
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This is a good post to be fair. I can’t get past the money and potential rule breaking and all the advantages he has had over the rest of the field. It really takes away from the sheen of it all for me.

But what you’ve said is very true. The changes he has made, moving to a double pivot, for example, show just how adaptable he is. He has revitalized Stones and Gundogan is having the season of his life.

I thought it might be a case of a cycle being done, but he has knuckled down, rethought the set-up and got them playing again. They look like a new team.

It’s all very impressive and it’s a real pity that all the money and advantages (fair or unfair) take away from his work this season. However, they absolutely do, and always will for me.
 
I think we should add the name of Juanma Lillo when we are discussing Guardiola's evolution as a manager. Now, as we know he was very influential for Pep at the start of his career. Lillo is a radical prophet of the positional play and the free flowing concepts of the attacking football in Cruyff style. But he spent the majority of his coaching career in inferior sides and subsequently had to adapt these ideas with the quality of the players at his disposal, so he evolved more pragmatic approach to his ideas. It is obvious that Pep's assistant had a chat with him about the situation at City at the end of the last season...
 
I'm not saying it's all due to this - but that 2 weeks break whilst everyone else looks shattered after the Covid delay last season definitely helped them out.
 
ROFLUTION said:
Not so sure he deserves all the tactical genius parts. They just bought a very good defender in Dias, and lead because the league is a mess and everyone loses points. Hats off to Pep for making Stones a good defender too though. But to be fair they've mostly bought their way into succes again. He's coached Gundogan, Stones, Cancelo well this season but they looked very off in the first 10-15 games. Sterling not his usual self, KdB not his usual self if you look at the whole season.
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He is clearly the best manager in the world, no doubts about that. City are going to walk the league this year yet again even having no decent striker in the team.
 
Noot said:
Of course the money is a help. City spend more than almost any club in the world- that's a fact.

But do I honestly believe that any other manager in the world could have achieved what Pep has with City, given the same resources? No. I don't think they could. In my book, that's what makes him special. I certainly don't agree with those who think his job is easy, in any way, shape or form.
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2 leagues and a few domestic cups, basically what you achieved in the few years before pep. He’s done it with abit of flair I guess but I think plenty of managers could’ve given you a similar trophy haul
 
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