'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

padr81 said:
Fernandinho couldn't get in the team pre-Pep and was often rotated because Pellers believed he was no good on the ball. It was only in Pep's 10 games people started to realize "this guys a bit of a machine" and only when he got injured and our season fell apart that people realized just how good he was and important to Pep. While he rarely gets anything right I believe it was Paul Merson who said "Fernandinho is the only player in history whose valued has tripled on the back of being injured". KDB was of course amazing and Kun easily the best striker in the league at that point but people often look back on David Silva as peak Pep David Silva which he wasn't and Pep sadly never got the best of Kompany.

The squad Pep inherited had Joe Hart is goal (a keeper who after leaving City was laughed at it Italy, and flopped everywhere else in England), ancient fullbacks, cb's that were either an always injured Kompany or seen as a calamity. Plenty of quality in midfield. Players like Sterling who people now look on as great were a disaster under Pellers and Pep.

Jesus Navas transition to right back was very much Pep's doing and funny enough the only reason Sterling ever got in the team. We had a good squad for sure, I'd say better than Uniteds but after the transfer window not many believed we still were.
But the reality will be Pep turned Otamendi into a team of the season CB, David Silva into the David Silva we all remember. Took Sterling from flop to world class winger etc... Every single player in the squad got better under Pep even those past their peak ages. He obviously had his fair share of clangers too.

Heading into their first season its was largely regarded as
United have the better keeper DDG over Bravo (true)
United have the better backline Bailly and Smalling were better than Otamendi, Stones and a crocked Kompany.
United had the better fullbacks (largely through though both teams had shite fullbacks)
Pogba had evened up the midfields in some cases many here would say United had a stronger midfield than City.
IUp top that people said City had an advantage but Martial was regarded as a far better footballer than Sterling or Nolito and many argued Zlatan was better than Kun

Pep's first team at City was.
Bravo,
Sagna, Stones, Otamendi, Kolarov/Clichy
Fernandinho
KDB and Silva (who many thought couldn't play as an 8, myself included)
Navas, Aguero and Nolito.

Uniteds predicted team was
DDG
Valencia, Bailly, Smalling, Shaw
Herrera, Pogba,
Mkhitaryan, Mata, Martial
Zlatan

Uniteds squad also had older but still big names like Rooney, Carrick, young talent like Lingard (lots of people rated him), Rashford and Joses fave battering ram in Fellaini.
City's bench was what was deemed the big difference of course with us having a full 11 subs, including Yaya, Kompany, Delph, Sterling, Sane and Jesus.

Hindsight makes it very easy to see how things ended up but United fans were rightly confident going into the campaign if your consider how the players were rated in 2016. If I was to compare both those 11's back then I'd say United was the strongest but Cities squad having far more depth.
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Hart < DDG
Sagna/Zaba > Darmian/Valencia
Kompany & Otamendi > Smalling Jones
Clincy/Kolarov = Shaw/Blind
Fernandinho > 35 years old Carrick
KDB > Herrera
Silva/past Yaya > Schneiderlin/Fellaini/past Rooney
Jesus Navas < Mata
Sterling = Martial
Aguero > Rashford

You tried so hard to down play your 15/16 squad but you can't fool me mate. What Pep inherited was a very good quality squad, it's a squad that filled in with lot of quality players, world class player in 2016 like Silva & Aguero and title winner players 2 seasons before. Pep had easier job compared to Mourinho in term of building the team. Only DDG & Mata from United squad are considered to be better in comparison above. Let's not waste time here, I hope you can see what is quality and what is not.
 
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I think what we are inevitably seeing is what some of us already suspected - Pep is a fantastic coach when he has a plethora of top quality, handpicked players at his disposal. Every club he has been at, this has been the case.

his first season at City was poor, then he was able to start splashing the cash and completely overhauling the squad with prime, world class players. Now several of those players are past their peak and he is struggling again. He has not successfully brought through any youngsters either (Foden is the example sure, but I would argue that he isn’t as far along as he probably should be).

Basically he is someone who can take a top group of players and elevate them to a higher level for a couple of years, but his long term, strategic planning is a bit lacklustre.
 
padr81 said:
Yup thats why its such a big part of his career, the truly great manager can rebuild when a team has run its course. Its what separates Sir Alex from Pep and Jose and co. right now imho. Pep refreshed Barca, Bayern and City and made some massive decision but no one would say he had to rebuild a team till now and at this point in time its balanced on a knife edge.
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I can't think of any other manager who's been given the opportunity to do this in modern times apart from SAF (and maybe Wenger?).

No one is arguing that Pep is greater than SAF so I've always found it a moot argument. Will Klopp stick around to build another great Liverpool side after Mane and co move on? What team did Mourinho stick beside to rebuild after the first peak? It's an asinine argument IMO.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Hart < DDG
Sagna/Zaba > Darmian/Valencia
Kompany & Otamendi > Smalling Jones
Clincy/Kolarov = Shaw/Blind
Fernandinho > 35 years old Carrick
KDB > Herrera
Silva/past Yaya > Schneiderlin/Fellaini/past Rooney
Jesus Navas < Mata
Sterling = Martial
Aguero > Rashford

You tried so hard to down play your 15/16 squad but you can't fool me mate. What Pep inherited was a very good quality squad, it's a squad that filled in with lot of quality players, world class player in 2016 like Silva & Aguero and title winner players 2 seasons before. Pep had easier job compared to Mourinho in term of building the team. Only DDG & Mata from United squad are considered to be better in comparison above. Let's not waste time here, I hope you can see what is quality and what is not.
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Tell you what go back and read the posts here from before that season. You've completely left out Zlatan and co. and all signings and no one on here would have put Sterling above Martial going into that season. Literally no one.
 
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adexkola said:
I can't think of any other manager who's been given the opportunity to do this in modern times apart from SAF (and maybe Wenger?).

No one is arguing that Pep is greater than SAF so I've always found it a moot argument. Will Klopp stick around to build another great Liverpool side after Mane and co move on? What team did Mourinho stick beside to rebuild after the first peak? It's an asinine argument IMO.
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I probably didn't explain right but that was kinda my point, just because he's not Sir Alex doesn't make his time at City a failure. Its people here hold Pep to standards even higher than Sir Alex and use it as a stick to beat him when he doesn't surpass that. I agree none of Klopp of Jose have ever rebuilt a team.
 
padr81 said:
Its insane, Pep is held to a stupidly high standard even in comparison to Sir Alex (whose the best manager of all time). Its unreal the expectations on him. While I think Klopp has replaced him and is currently the better manager, its ludicrous what people expect of Pep.

Person A: Pep is one of the top managers in the world
Person B: All his success was handed to him, he was lucky to have the players he has.
Person A: Pep has said this himself many times, that his success is down to the players and clubs he's been lucky to have. It still takes a good manager to get the best out of them.
Person B: Pep Guardiola is my idol, I dunno why you all think he's a God. He only has 2 CL's
Person A: 2 in 12 years isn't bad. I mean the best manager of all time got 2 in like 27 years.
Person B: Yeah but he had Messi.
Person A: Messi alone doesn't win CL's.
Person B: He failed at Bayern and City.
Person A: I don't know many Bayern or City fans who consider him a failure.
Person B: He didn't win his last 57 games 5-0.
Person A: No one does.
Person B: So he's not a God. Pep Guardiola is my idol.

This is literally 90% of conversations with Pep haters. Its surreal.
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To have the squad lined up for him and all those transfers and support you must have expected a good crack at the champions league instead of the damp squib campaigns you’ve had. That’s disappointing if not a failure.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
To have the squad lined up for him and all those transfers and support you must have expected a good crack at the champions league instead of the damp squib campaigns you’ve had. That’s disappointing if not a failure.
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Disappointing to who? City fans? As a United fan I'm elated they haven't won one. And I doubt the majority of City fans are gutted at the trophy haul and football under Pep. He's underachieved in the CL no question, but that alone doesn't make his tenure a disappointment.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
To have the squad lined up for him and all those transfers and support you must have expected a good crack at the champions league instead of the damp squib campaigns you’ve had. That’s disappointing if not a failure.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, absolutely he's been poor in the CL, with no disrespect to the following clubs in 4 seasons he's went out to Monaco, Spurs and Lyon whilst managing the favorites. Admittedly unlucky vs Monaco and very unlucky vs Spurs but he's been piss poor in the CL for me and while I'd love to win the CL, I will always judge a manager on his league record. Knockout competitions have too much luck in them for me. I'm not saying luck is the only reason he's lost, he's also shit the bed tactically. His best chance was the season he went out to Spurs, had it not been for a dodgy handball goal I think we'd have been playing a CL final for the Quadruple. The margins are very fine.
 
Let me actually correct the logic/argument
(I'm not a Pep "hater" btw, I just honestly think people overate him beyond what he is, a great manager but not miles above the other great managers)

padr81 said:
Person A: Pep is one of the top managers in the world
Person B: All his success was handed to him, he was lucky to have the players he has.

[Yes, like many good managers he naturally coaches top teams but this Barcelona team, Bayern team and his City team have the best squads in the league they were/are in]

Person A: Pep has said this himself many times, that his success is down to the players and clubs he's been lucky to have. It still takes a good manager to get the best out of them.
Person B: Pep Guardiola is my idol, I dunno why you all think he's a God. He only has 2 CL's

[2 in 12 isn't bad by any means, people just expected more from the dominant force in Bundesliga + one of the richest clubs in the present

Bayern before Pep
QF
F
R16
F
Winner

Bayern, Pep time
SF
SF
SF

Bayern after Pep
QF
SF
R16
Winner

So Pep actually lowered the bar for Bayern in the CL, they had been in 3 finals in the 4 years before
Now City

City before Pep
Group Stage, 3rd place,
Group Stage, 4th place
R16
R16
SF

City, Pep time
R16
QF
QF
QF

That's not good enough, City kept improving the squad over and over over the last 10 years and when Pep came it was espected much more.
It's more disappointing especially when you see that the teams he got eliminated by were generally much weaker than what he had.
Also his predecessors had harsher games as City had to build his european ranking up, it was not a pot 1 team, far from that]

Person A: 2 in 12 years isn't bad. I mean the best manager of all time got 2 in like 27 years.

[Ferguson's record is actually bad, 2 in 27, especially when most of the time Man Utd was one of the biggest clubs in the world]

Person B: Yeah but he had Messi.
Person A: Messi alone doesn't win CL's.

[Of course not, still Pep didn't win one CL without that historic spanish team + Messi]

Person B: He failed at Bayern and City.
Person A: I don't know many Bayern or City fans who consider him a failure.

[The Bundesliga was telegraphed for Bayern and like I showed in the CL he was worse than his predecessors, in City his CL record is bad and in the league he won 2 in 4 when Pellegrini got 1 in 3, it's better than before yes, especially with more cups, but he also spent like crazy to add up to that crazy squad]

Person B: He didn't win his last 57 games 5-0.
Person A: No one does.
Person B: So he's not a God. Pep Guardiola is my idol.

[No one cares he wins 57 games 5-0, people just expect that the messiah of football can do better in the CL with the world class squads he have been having
To me personally I still haven't seen Pep do something extraordinary other than with that Barça team, it looks like if his team is not 2 orders of magnitude better than his opponents he struggles
I honestly atm think the same of Zidane, amazing 3 CL achievement but without Ronaldo and those players at their peak he seems to struggle]

This is literally 90% of conversations with Pep haters. Its surreal.
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adexkola said:
Disappointing to who? City fans? As a United fan I'm elated they haven't won one. And I doubt the majority of City fans are gutted at the trophy haul and football under Pep. He's underachieved in the CL no question, but that alone doesn't make his tenure a disappointment.
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To city fans obviously
 
Camara said:
Let me actually correct the logic/argument
(I'm not a Pep "hater" btw, I just honestly think people overate him beyond what he is, a great manager but not miles above the other great managers)
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The margins in the CL were tiny which it always is without knockout football. Atletico knocking out Bayern and even Spurs knocking out City were both crazily lucky and not on Pep. Of course in 2009 he was also incredibly lucky. You can't judge a manager off their record in ko football. Roberto Di Matteo and Zizou would be the goats if we did and as you said Sir Alex a failure. Its completely unfair to judge Pep or Sir Alex on CL's as opposed to their records as a whole.
 
padr81 said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, absolutely he's been poor in the CL, with no disrespect to the following clubs in 4 seasons he's went out to Monaco, Spurs and Lyon whilst managing the favorites. Admittedly unlucky vs Monaco and very unlucky vs Spurs but he's been piss poor in the CL for me and while I'd love to win the CL, I will always judge a manager on his league record. Knockout competitions have too much luck in them for me. I'm not saying luck is the only reason he's lost, he's also shit the bed tactically. His best chance was the season he went out to Spurs, had it not been for a dodgy handball goal I think we'd have been playing a CL final for the Quadruple. The margins are very fine.
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Yes so you’d say you’re disappointed with his champions league campaigns but satisfied with his league campaigns and overall.

as a united fan I obviously can’t stick my nose up at 2 titles in 5 years but from where city were with the spine of players, the hiring of pep, the crazy buying of more players I would be disappointed overall with his tenure when you look at what he’d be leaving if he went this year. Throughout his time and all the players he’s bought no one has successfully replaced the spine he took over have they?
 
padr81 said:
The margins in the CL were tiny which it always is without knockout football. Atletico knocking out Bayern and even Spurs knocking out City were both crazily lucky and not on Pep. Of course in 2009 he was also incredibly lucky. You can't judge a manager off their record in ko football. Roberto Di Matteo and Zizou would be the goats if we did and as you said Sir Alex a failure. Its completely unfair to judge Pep or Sir Alex on CL's as opposed to their records as a whole.
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But even then, his league record is... what was expected from those clubs, not better, not worse.
Bayern IS the german champion lately unless there's a catastrophe, it was mandatory he also won it, and he did.

In City he has 2 in 4 which is good but given his squad it was also expected what he did. Mancini was champion after being in the build up era, Pellegrini was champion, Pep now was champion too. It's so far better than them but he also benefits from their squads. It was expected for City to win the league sometime and he did that. Yes he broke the league record which is an achievement but he isn't the only one, Klopp also had a similar performance recently.

I also didn't said SAF was a failure, I said he had a bad record in the CL, so a "failure" (worse than my expectations) only in Europe.
In the league he did very well, he had to build up the club and was often champion with different squads, sometimes having the best squad and other times with worse or equivalent squads.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
Yes so you’d say you’re disappointed with his champions league campaigns but satisfied with his league campaigns and overall.

as a united fan I obviously can’t stick my nose up at 2 titles in 5 years but from where city were with the spine of players, the hiring of pep, the crazy buying of more players I would be disappointed overall with his tenure when you look at what he’d be leaving if he went this year. Throughout his time and all the players he’s bought no one has successfully replaced the spine he took over have they?
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Not really but the jury is still out on many. Dias, Laporte and Ederson (look phenomenal if Laporte can find some form after injury). Its midfield where my issues with his recruitment are (mainly Rodri). I've slaughtered Rodri and Gundo on here for being too slow and lacking aggression but Gundogan has been easily our best player this season even if we've had to change tactics to accomodate it and Rodri is showing slight signs but I still think he's not good enough.
Jesus up front is never going to be Kun but can be quite decent for me in terms of replacing the spine its kind of a wait and see.

Keeper and CB's are rebuilt. Gundogan is finally after 4 years showing what he was signed for. Its Rodri and Jesus where I'm concerned and I'd say its more the jury is still out on them. Of course theres been a feck ton of failures in those positions to. Stones (despite looking very good lately), Bravo and sadly looking more and more like Bernardo too despite his great season two years ago.

His biggest issues have been in non-spine area's if that makes sense. Mendy has been a complete disaster, Mahrez has been below expectations, Sane was alienated and left, Cancelo is maybe starting to look like the player we signed now but was terrible pre-lockdown. Walker has been good but not great,

This is the make or break season for Pep's spine and its a weird one all around Europe for top teams. Honestly for me it rests on Rodri, he'll never be Fernandinho (who himself was nothing but a squad player pre-Pep) but can he make him at least something bar a ponderous Busquets clone who can do literally nothing Busquets could.

A lot of people are operating on the assumption he won't win the league this season (while I'm wavering I still believe its very possible and would have us 2nd favorites) and while I was pissed at the West Brom result, winning our game in hand puts us 5 points behind Liverpool, a point behind Spurs and Leicester and 3 points behind United (provided they also win their game in hand) with 25 games to go. We also have a nice run towards half way provided we stop dropping clangers like the West Brom game. The concern is hitting getting the attack correct as its really misfiring at the minute.

When you look at how City are doing this season really its not much worse or not worse than Real, Barca and Juve. And teams like PSG have already lost more games this term than their average per season for the last 4 seasons. Bayern and Liverpool have been the only top teams who have been close to par and Bayern (trashed 4-1 by Hoffeheim) have had a couple of gafs in the bundesliga and Liverpool the same in the premier league (trashed by Villa 7-2). Its simply no ordinary season for the top teams though I feel they'll inevitably get the job done and pull away while Europe is on a break.
 
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Camara said:
But even then, his league record is... what was expected from those clubs, not better, not worse.
Bayern IS the german champion lately unless there's a catastrophe, it was mandatory he also won it, and he did.

In City he has 2 in 4 which is good but given his squad it was also expected what he did. Mancini was champion after being in the build up era, Pellegrini was champion, Pep now was champion too. It's so far better than them but he also benefits from their squads. It was expected for City to win the league sometime and he did that. Yes he broke the league record which is an achievement but he isn't the only one, Klopp also had a similar performance recently.

I also didn't said SAF was a failure, I said he had a bad record in the CL, so a "failure" (worse than my expectations) only in Europe.
In the league he did very well, he had to build up the club and was often champion with different squads, sometimes having the best squad and other times with worse or equivalent squads.
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People act like hitting expectations is easy thats a problem, if it was Moyes, LVG and Jose wouldn't have failed at United. Jose a 2nd time at Chelsea etc... Just because people say you should win doesn't mean you will, there is a reason the Premier League is very rarely retained since Sir Alex and City are the only team to do it in a decade.
 
Some keep focusing on titles won or that should have been won because "lots of investment blablabla..." Which is the most important thing offcourse, but it isn't the only important thing. Pep was also brought in to make the team play a certain brand of football and he succeeded in doing that, City is one of the teams today that Neutrals love watching because of the brand of football they play.
 
padr81 said:
I'd say this season is the decider for me at City. If he wins the title than 3 in 5 years is a really good return (only bettered by Sir Alex after all). 2 in 5 years is kinda meh, neither a massive failure nor a roaring success, more par for the course for any top manager. And of course the other trophies don't matter unless a league title comes with them. Winning a league cup alone or FA Cup alone is seen as a poor season for Pep and City more so than other clubs but its hardly a disaster. When you've seen your team in league 1, you don't find coming 2nd and winning a trophy as much of a disaster.

I think United fans have these crazy expectations where they see anything less than winning 7 or so titles in 10 years as not amazing. But the reality is in England only 1 man could ever do that and only 1 man ever will. Being less successful than Sir Alex is not failing regardless of resources. The issue is the crazy expectations that are put on Pep. I've seen City coast games 2-0 vs bottom half teams and get slated as not playing well both here and in the media despite rarely breaking a sweat because the expectation is anything other than Pep beating someone bar the top teams less than 5-0 is unacceptable. I've seen him win 198 points and 2 titles in 2 seasons and heard people say "He has to win the CL", from the same people who were saying "He'll never make his style work here" just a year before hand. No matter what he does, he'll always have people belittling him. One poster went as far as saying if he wants to be taken seriously he needs to leave City and win the Premier League with Everton.

Its the same with Champions Leagues, Pep of course needs to win one without Barca before he retires but his CL record is bettered by very few. But there is no stipulation that says Pep is only signed to any club to win the CL, like any other manager he's signed to bring his brand of football and win as much as he can (plus in our case for exposure and PR as he's a bigger draw in world football than the club).

Like every dog he'll have his day and then he'll drop off. There are very few exceptions, football will pass him by, its already looking like he has to adapt or die but there is a huge area between being a tactical God and a failure but people refuse to see Pep as anywhere between.
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Many fair points mate and I think on United forum comparisons to Sir Alex are inevitable - especially as for many of us he’s a cult figure and I am sure I wasn’t the only one strongly triggered few years back when pundits would say Pep is a manager on the same level as him, luckily we don’t hear much about that now.
Following the two freak title winning seasons, in a great style too, many have expected Guardiola to show he’s not only great in bringing the best from top top squads (as he did in Barça, Bayern and City he inherited made-to-measure for him) but also in finally being able to maintain that dominance, improve the already fantastic teams by adding this magic that wins you Champions Leagues. I believe it was in fact expected from him (also by City owners) that he is able to show he can also coordinate a rebuild so that his teams are not only great now but also for years to come. He made you look like absolute world beaters for two years (while still not winning you the first Champions League which was obviously a dream after as correctly pointed out very good campaign of Pellegrini), but if he wins nothing major this year and leaves there’s no way most of City fans will say “he deliver what I hoped for five years ago and left the team stronger than he encountered”
 
What he has done domestically over the last few seasons is insane but obviously the CL has been such a letdown. Since they are poor in the league this season people turn to his CL record, if city keep this form up in the PL he really needs to win/make the final of the CL
 
It's not only about Pep's five, six, seven years at City but also what he will leave behind. Aguero will be gone, De Bruyne in early 30s, so possibly a keeper who only fits Pep's style, Sterling who's not really that great and maybe two or three very good centre-backs. Right now I don't think that squad is much better than United/Spurs'.
 
Red Star One said:
Many fair points mate and I think on United forum comparisons to Sir Alex are inevitable - especially as for many of us he’s a cult figure and I am sure I wasn’t the only one strongly triggered few years back when pundits would say Pep is a manager on the same level as him, luckily we don’t hear much about that now.
Following the two freak title winning seasons, in a great style too, many have expected Guardiola to show he’s not only great in bringing the best from top top squads (as he did in Barça, Bayern and City he inherited made-to-measure for him) but also in finally being able to maintain that dominance, improve the already fantastic teams by adding this magic that wins you Champions Leagues. I believe it was in fact expected from him (also by City owners) that he is able to show he can also coordinate a rebuild so that his teams are not only great now but also for years to come. He made you look like absolute world beaters for two years (while still not winning you the first Champions League which was obviously a dream after as correctly pointed out very good campaign of Pellegrini), but if he wins nothing major this year and leaves there’s no way most of City fans will say “he deliver what I hoped for five years ago and left the team stronger than he encountered”
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Lets say he wins nothing this year for arguments sake, he's signed on for more and then there is a chance his team wins again next season. We all would like 5 titles and a CL in 6 seasons but its a hope as oppossed to an expectation in a league that hasn't been retained in 10 years except by Pep. Delivered what I'd hoped for? No, delivered what I'd expect? Yes. 2 tiles after 5 or 6 years is probably slightly below what I'd expect but again nothing to sniff at.

Pep has 2 titles in 4.5 seasons in the premier league. The leagues other greatest managers.. Jose 3 in 9 or 10 seasons, Wenger 3 titles in over 20 years, Klopp 1 so far in 5 years. Of course they all had different starting positions with the others having to rebuild and only really Jose and Pep having a war chest to do so. I'm leaving out Sir Alex not because he's not the greatest just because his record is so insane its incomparable.
 
I think 3 league titles + 6 fa/league cups + at least 1 CL final would be fair expectations. He's the best paid manager in the world who spent £1b or so, you don't hire him to finish 3rd and maybe win a fa cup while you've beaten 2:0, 3:0 by Lyon or so in CL last 16.
 
Pep's Suit said:
It's not only about Pep's five, six, seven years at City but also what he will leave behind. Aguero will be gone, De Bruyne in early 30s, so possibly a keeper who only fits Pep's style, Sterling who's not really that great and maybe two or three very good centre-backs. Right now I don't think that squad is much better than United/Spurs'.
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I rate Pep really highly up there with the best he got over 200 points in 2 seasons even if you have the best squad that’s incredible he won all domestic titles. Yeah he has done in the CL but if he walks (don’t think he’ll get sacked) he leaves behind a aging team with not many stand out players and a big rebuilding job.

Now watch him leave and City rebuild in 1 season while it’s taking us 6-7
 
Pep's Suit said:
It's not only about Pep's five, six, seven years at City but also what he will leave behind. Aguero will be gone, De Bruyne in early 30s, so possibly a keeper who only fits Pep's style, Sterling who's not really that great and maybe two or three very good centre-backs. Right now I don't think that squad is much better than United/Spurs'.
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Serious question but how far away would you say we are. For me the backline is probably the best its ever been if Cancelo continues to excel at LB. I think a replacement for Kun/Jesus and maybe Rodri and we'd be right back where we were. For arguments sake Haaland and Kante (obviously a pipe dream) but thats literally how close we are imho. United and Spurs have improved more than we've regressed

For arguments sake.

Ederson
Walker (would likely need replacing)
Dias
Laporte/Stones/Ake
Cancelo/Mendy
DM
KDB
Gundo/Bernardo/Foden
Mahrez/Bernardo/Foden
ST / Jesus
Sterling/Foden

Whoever takes over couldn't ask for a squad that needs much less work. At most a LB or RB a dm and a striker. Given Cities budget something like Hernandez, Haaland and someone like Ndidi and they are almost there.
 
padr81 said:
Not really but the jury is still out on many. Dias, Laporte and Ederson (look phenomenal if Laporte can find some form after injury). Its midfield where my issues with his recruitment are (mainly Rodri). I've slaughtered Rodri and Gundo on here for being too slow and lacking aggression but Gundogan has been easily our best player this season even if we've had to change tactics to accomodate it and Rodri is showing slight signs but I still think he's not good enough.
Jesus up front is never going to be Kun but can be quite decent for me in terms of replacing the spine its kind of a wait and see.

Keeper and CB's are rebuilt. Gundogan is finally after 4 years showing what he was signed for. Its Rodri and Jesus where I'm concerned and I'd say its more the jury is still out on them. Of course theres been a feck ton of failures in those positions to. Stones (despite looking very good lately), Bravo and sadly looking more and more like Bernardo too despite his great season two years ago.

His biggest issues have been in non-spine area's if that makes sense. Mendy has been a complete disaster, Mahrez has been below expectations, Sane was alienated and left, Cancelo is maybe starting to look like the player we signed now but was terrible pre-lockdown. Walker has been good but not great,

This is the make or break season for Pep's spine and its a weird one all around Europe for top teams. Honestly for me it rests on Rodri, he'll never be Fernandinho (who himself was nothing but a squad player pre-Pep) but can he make him at least something bar a ponderous Busquets clone who can do literally nothing Busquets could.

A lot of people are operating on the assumption he won't win the league this season (while I'm wavering I still believe its very possible and would have us 2nd favorites) and while I was pissed at the West Brom result, winning our game in hand puts us 5 points behind Liverpool, a point behind Spurs and Leicester and 3 points behind United (provided they also win their game in hand) with 25 games to go. We also have a nice run towards half way provided we stop dropping clangers like the West Brom game. The concern is hitting getting the attack correct as its really misfiring at the minute.

When you look at how City are doing this season really its not much worse or not worse than Real, Barca and Juve. And teams like PSG have already lost more games this term than their average per season for the last 4 seasons. Bayern and Liverpool have been the only top teams who have been close to par and Bayern (trashed 4-1 by Hoffeheim) have had a couple of gafs in the bundesliga and Liverpool the same in the premier league (trashed by Villa 7-2). Its simply no ordinary season for the top teams though I feel they'll inevitably get the job done and pull away while Europe is on a break.
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Fair points.

I still think you could win the league this year, it would be silly to say it’s gone already and as you say it’s no ordinary season
 
Red Star One said:
And I think it’s miles behind 17/18 with Kompany
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Nah, Kompany missed lots of 17/18. Otamendi was the star of the show that year. Kompany played in less than half the league games.
In the Premier League : Otamendi 34 appearances, Stones 18, Kompany 17, Laporte and Mangala 9.
In all comps :Otamendi 46, Stones 29, Komapny 21

Otamendi was also voted into team of the season. I'd take Dias, Laporte, Stones and Ake over Kompany of 17/18, Otamendi, Stones and Mangala in a heartbeat.

See this is the thing, a little off topic but people think back to the names in the squad in those years but only see the players at their peak. Pep never got peak Kompany, he got a very good CB who was mostly injured. So we look at a list of names like the earlier poster and see Aguero, Sterling, Kompany, Fernandinho, KDB, Merlin etc... and people think he inherited 11 monsters but those players weren't all at their peaks together, though in 17/18 under Pep arguably KDB, Fernandinho, Silva and Sterling all lifted to the peak we remember them at.
 
padr81 said:
People act like hitting expectations is easy thats a problem, if it was Moyes, LVG and Jose wouldn't have failed at United. Jose a 2nd time at Chelsea etc... Just because people say you should win doesn't mean you will, there is a reason the Premier League is very rarely retained since Sir Alex and City are the only team to do it in a decade.
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Of course expectations might be wrongly built like Moyes, LVG and Jose being expected to win the league with the squads they had, but they might be correct too.

City is expected to be champion every other year or so with the squads they have in the last few years, do you think if Pep wasn't champion everyone would be happy with his "brand" alone?
If he hadn't won everyone would be criticising him because there was a reasonable expectation to do so.
Pellegrini and Mancini were champions too, were they able to hit expectations too?

Jose was actually champion in Chelsea in the second time, the team wasn't good enough to be champion (just go back and listen to people ranking contenders), he improved it and was champion. His half 3rd year was terrible yes and no excuses.
He did become champion again with Chelsea in the end. People were hoping, not expecting, for that team to be champion in the short term, and even so it was only because of Mourinho joining.
The expectation failed because people thought it would be a long term dynasty thing and it ended abruptly some months after being champion.

Brand only means anything if you win, it's easy to be a manager these days if all you have to do is play pretty, results don't matter, the media will love you and demonise whatever manager that plays a different way.
 
padr81 said:
Tell you what go back and read the posts here from before that season. You've completely left out Zlatan and co. and all signings and no one on here would have put Sterling above Martial going into that season. Literally no one.
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Zlatan, Pogba, mkhy & Bailly were Mourinho signings, they were not player that Mourinho had before he took in charged. Mourinho inherited bad squad that he needed to spend 185m euro in his first season to brought those 4 players to start building his squad. In contrast, Pep inherited better squad and much quality squad and he spent 215m euro in his first season to boost his good quality squad. In logic, Mourinho should be spending double the amount.

One manager needed to start from scratch while the other one already had more than half what he needed. How can you not see the difference?

Tell you what go back and read again, I didn’t put Sterling above martial. I put them on equal, young talented wide forwards/wingers.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Zlatan, Pogba, mkhy & Bailly were Mourinho signings, they were not player that Mourinho had before he took in charged. Mourinho inherited bad squad that he needed to spend 185m euro in his first season to brought those 4 players to start building his squad. In contrast, Pep inherited better squad and much quality squad and he spent 215m euro in his first season to boost his good quality squad. In logic, Mourinho should be spending double the amount.

Tell you what go back and read again, I didn’t put Sterling above martial. I put them on equal, young talented wide forwards/wingers.
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Which is exactly what I said... I said going into the season many fancied United above City and 95% of people said they had the stronger team but City the stronger squad after United had such a good window.
 
padr81 said:
Which is exactly what I said... I said going into the season many fancied United above City and 95% of people said they had the stronger team but City the stronger squad after United had such a good window.
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What you said is Irrelevant to my post. Mourinho inherited a much worse squad with no players that he can built on as foundation for his system while Pep inherited a much better squad with his top 5 players he built on as foundation for his system. How can you not see the difference?

How is Mkhytaryan who never won the offical bundesliga player of the season is better than KDB who won official bundesliga player of the season? How is signing Bailly means we have better centre back than Kompany’s level? How is 35 years old Zlatan is better than prime Aguero? How is not signing a DM is better than having Fernandinho?

It doesn’t make sense how is spending 185m to sign worse players than KDB, Aguero, Kompany & Fernandinho plus extra 215m euro that Pep spent means we would had better squad! There is zero logic! Where is this 95% people? You are making things up to suit your argument.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
What you said is Irrelevant to my post. Mourinho inherited a much worse squad with no players that he can built on as foundation for his system while Pep inherited a much better squad with his top 5 players he built on as foundation for his system. How can you not see the difference?

How is Mkhytaryan who never won the offical bundesliga player of the season is better than KDB who won official bundesliga player of the season? How is signing Bailly means we have better centre back than Kompany’s level? How is 35 years old Zlatan is better than prime Aguero? How is not signing a DM is better than having Fernandinho?

It doesn’t make sense how is spending 185m to sign worse players than KDB, Aguero, Kompany & Fernandinho plus extra 215m euro that Pep spent means we would had better squad! There is zero logic! Where is this 95% people? You are making things up to suit your argument.
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Ask the United fans and pundits who were saying it? I don't think you understand, read my posts from back then, I was literally saying what you are now without hindsight. It was the Caf and many pundits who were saying the opposite which they now deny and have changed their tunes with hindsight.

I'm not making anything up, you can find it all on these very forums.
 
padr81 said:
Ask the United fans and pundits who were saying it? I don't think you understand, read my posts from back then, I was literally saying what you are now without hindsight. It was the Caf and many pundits who were saying the opposite which they now deny and have changed their tunes with hindsight.
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Again, it doesn’t make sense how is spending 185m to sign (Mkhy, 35 years old Zlatan, Bailly & no DM) worse players than KDB, Aguero, Kompany & Fernandinho will make you have better squad than having those players plus additional 215m euro players. There is zero logic! :wenger:

Where? Prove it! Don’t just talk with no evidence.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Again, it doesn’t make sense how is spending 185m to sign (Mkhy, 35 years old Zlatan, Bailly & no DM) worse players than KDB, Aguero, Kompany & Fernandinho will make you have better squad than having those players plus additional 215m euro players. There is zero logic! :wenger:

Where? Prove it! Don’t just talk with no evidence.
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I'm searching for city 16/17 thread but can't find it. I know it's there somewhere cause myself and random task spent half the year arguing.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/joses-pop-at-pep.422157/post-19848612 You can find posters here confirming exactly what I said though the City 16/17 thread is gone, maybe deleted because I kept using it to embarrass people.
 
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padr81 said:
I'm searching for city 16/17 thread but can't find it. I know it's there somewhere cause myself and random task spent half the year arguing.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/joses-pop-at-pep.422157/post-19848612 You can find posters here confirming exactly what I said though the City 16/17 thread is gone, maybe deleted because I kept using it to embarrass people.
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You fail to give me evidence and now use excuse of ‘’being deleted‘’ to suit your argument.

Let me ask you this because you keep ignoring this valid good point. How is spending 185m to sign (Mkhy, 35 years old Zlatan, Bailly & no DM) which worse players than KDB, Aguero, Kompany & Fernandinho will make it better squad than having those players plus additional 215m euro players??
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
You fail to give me evidence and now use excuse of ‘’being deleted‘’ to suit your argument.

Let me ask you this because you keep ignoring this valid good point. How is spending 185m to sign (Mkhy, 35 years old Zlatan, Bailly & no DM) which worse players than KDB, Aguero, Kompany & Fernandinho will make it better squad than having those players plus additional 215m euro players??
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I went back and found it to shut you up. You're quite lucky I have two hours of nothing at work cause a client never turned up. Heres your proof. You could read the whole thread but heres some. Have fun.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603300
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603423
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603552
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603714
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603757 Zlatan > Aguero in this one.

I can keep going and through other threads till 9 and find United are futher ahead of City than City are of Everton and more.

Also with regards that question you keep asking I've told you I agree with you, its those United fans who don't. I mean I said it at least twice.
 
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padr81 said:
I went back and found it to shut you up. You're quite lucky I have two hours of nothing at work cause a client never turned up. Heres your proof. You could read the whole thread but heres some. Have fun.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603300
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603423
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603552
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603714
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our...anchester-city-2016-2017.419506/post-19603757 Zlatan > Aguero in this one.

I can keep going and through other threads till 9 and find United are futher ahead of City than City are of Everton and more.

Also with regards that question you keep asking I've told you I agree with you, its those United fans who don't. I mean I said it at least twice.
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You said ‘’pundit’’. Where’s the pundit?

AN17 said:
Saw someone mention in the Bluemoon meltdown forum that City have a better squad. Didn't want to derail that thread; and I believe such an assessment is debatable.
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And from one of those link that I clicked that’s what I saw. So according to City fans, City had better squad.

I have said it before what you said is Irrelevant. Just like what GifLord said, ‘’that’s completely different‘’. The point is that none of LVG, Jose & Ole inherited as good of a squad like Pep did. That sentence should be fixed sentence and finish the discussion. I don’t know why are you trying to make further argument.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
You said ‘’pundit’’. Where’s the pundit?



And from one of those link that I clicked that’s what I saw. So according to City fans, City had better squad.

I have said it before what you said is Irrelevant. Just like what GifLord said, ‘’that’s completely different‘’. The point is that none of LVG, Jose & Ole inherited as good of a squad like Pep did. That sentence should be fixed sentence and finish the discussion. I don’t know why are you trying to make further argument.
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In your opinion and in my opinion Pep did, in the opinion of many others that city squad was in need of major surgery. And again I never once said Jose inherited a stronger squad, I said many people said he entered the season with a stronger team and many said he inherited a stronger squad. I never once stated that as my position. I don't know if you weren't around back then but it was a pretty common opinion.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/red-cafe-predicts-the-premier-league-table.421395/#post-19751735 - League table predictions from the Caf.

I said the squad Jose inherited finished level on points with Cities. I never said better or worse, just that City weren't 5 players ahead or whatever rubbish people spout. Again if you were around back then you'd see it was much discussed that United needed some superstars to take them to the next level as they had a decent squad base to build around them and City needed to add more players around their superstars, which both clubs did. United needed x and spent 180m on it and luckily, City needed Y and spent 200+m on it. Pep inherited more world class players but he inherited a squad that was thinner. Jose inherited a squad but needed those mega talents so he went and bought Pogba and brought in Zlatan.

It was literally discussed to death, City needed to spend big to refresh defence and midfield and United needed those elite players to take them to the next level. If you check threads from back then its literally everywhere.
 
padr81 said:
In your opinion and in my opinion Pep did, in the opinion of many others that city squad was in need of major surgery. And again I never once said Jose inherited a stronger squad, I said many people said he entered the season with a stronger team and many said he inherited a stronger squad. I never once stated that as my position. I don't know if you weren't around back then but it was a pretty common opinion.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/red-cafe-predicts-the-premier-league-table.421395/#post-19751735 - League table predictions from the Caf.

I said the squad Jose inherited finished level on points with Cities. I never said better or worse, just that City weren't 5 players ahead or whatever rubbish people spout. Again if you were around back then you'd see it was much discussed that United needed some superstars to take them to the next level as they had a decent squad base to build around them and City needed to add more players around their superstars, which both clubs did. United needed x and spent 180m on it and luckily, City needed Y and spent 200+m on it. Pep inherited more world class players but he inherited a squad that was thinner. Jose inherited a squad but needed those mega talents so he went and bought Pogba and brought in Zlatan.

It was literally discussed to death, City needed to spend big to refresh defence and midfield and United needed those elite players to take them to the next level. If you check threads from back then its literally everywhere.
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Again, it’s irrelevant here. Like what Gifford said here which the post you replied.

GifLord said:
That's completely different. None of the managers mentioned inherited as good of a squad like Pep did not to mention Utd's board is completely different to City's.
Example
Utd needs fullbacks -> easy just convert wingers
City needs fullbacks -> here's a blank check
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Mourinho didn’t inherited as good of a squad like Pep. So let’s not trying to make any further argument than this and let’s focus on who inherited good squad and who didn’t based on valid logic not on biased opinion from different posters.

It’s easier to build a team when you already have the top quality players for foundation you want to build. Mourinho had none, Pep had Fernandinho, Silva, KDB, Aguero and Kompany. Remember it’s not easy to find the key players for the foundation you want to build. Look at Pep now, struggled to replace Silva, prime Aguero and Fernandinho despite of signing/having talented players like Rodri, Bernardo Silva, Jesus in their position.
 
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