The biggest thing for me when it comes to the likes of Pep and Mourinho is that I don’t think they have the desire to allow an assistant to take on more responsibility for keeping things fresh. It strikes me that the company they keep in respect of their coaching team is more of an echo chamber where their core principals are enshrined and not challenged. Much of Ferguson’s successful longevity can be attributed to the fact that he entrusted coaches to take things in new directions, underpinned by the fact that the manager wasn’t dogmatic about getting results in a certain way. Perhaps this is an unfair characterisation of them both, but it looks that way from where I’m standing.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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The biggest thing for me when it comes to the likes of Pep and Mourinho is that I don’t think they have the desire to allow an assistant to take on more responsibility for keeping things fresh. It strikes me that the company they keep in respect of their coaching team is more of an echo chamber where their core principals are enshrined and not challenged. Much of Ferguson’s successful longevity can be attributed to the fact that he entrusted coaches to take things in new directions, underpinned by the fact that the manager wasn’t dogmatic about getting results in a certain way. Perhaps this is an unfair characterisation of them both, but it looks that way from where I’m standing.
With the amount that they have spent on their defence over the last few years, the fact that it's not good enough is a disgraceIt's hard to overlook the fact that Pep has certainly very consistently struggled in CL ever since Barca. As others have noted - that doesn't make him a bad manager. That just makes him a manager that struggles in CL
That said, if you take yesterday's game in isolation, or even this season - City simply doesn't have good enough defense. Sure, it was crazy for Sterling to not score the second goal, but did a team with the defense like City's deserve to be in semi-finals of CL? Not sure.
I wasn't referring to this season specifically in my alternate universe Champions League format. I'm firmly of the belief that this season is meaningless and should be expunged from the record books. This obviously has nothing to do with Leeds getting promoted and dippers winning the title
I'm just saying knock out cup competitions amplify the luck factor massively. I mean it's self evident.
And he's also vastly outspent any manager than came before him, too. He's won two league twice and gotten nowhere near the CL. That's not dominance. Success is relative to the resources a manager has. After spending £700m+ on a team already capable of winning the league and still relying on the core players that were there before, you'd expect that team to be challenging every year.
Yes they did say that, which is why several more people told them it was hyperbolic trollop, and why it isn't relevant.
He's always compared to Fergie, and the more it's done, the more ridiculous he becomes. He isn't even in the same league. I think even the most stoic of ABUs would begrudgingly accept Fergie had far more than just luck on his side. I don't remember anyone suggesting otherwise, anyway. After winning the European Cup Winners Cup with Aberdeen, it would be foolish not to accept Fergie was a supremely talented manager before he even joined United.
The point is Fergie has demonstrated an ability to win with the underdogs, he's shown he can win with youth, he can win with experience, he can buy the right players or he can be thrifty when needed. There's times where Fergie refused to spend money, and won the league anyway. What challenges has Pep faced? He hasn't had to manage money, he hasn't had to build a team from the bottom up, he's never stayed long enough to rebuild a team. Pep has always had every advantage available to him as a manager. I mean, City were actually restructuring the club to make it perfect for Pep when he arrived. When you start a hand with pocket aces, it's very easy to be ahead at the flop.
Thats a fair point, a lot of Pep's no.2's are friends, guys he's worked with etc.. I think a lot of his staff are members of the cult of Pep and at time he needs someone to say "Dude, the feck are you doing trying to park the bus vs Lyon" or "I don't think we should play our fullbacks as wingers vs Mane and Salah" etc..
I think part of it and I have no shame in admitting this is Pep is bigger than our club. At Bayern and Barca he was a big fish in a huge pond, at City he's bigger than the club so his power is absolute especially with Txhiki and Soriano. We are for better or worse a club that Pep has free reign to do what he likes with without the shadows of Cruyff or Beckenbauer etc.. hanging over him.
No he didn't. They were near the bottom at one point but he got them firing again and they eventually finished that season in 7th. Not great by any stretch but certainly not in the bottom half
Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pedro, Puyol, Pique, Villa.
The first 6 Barca players mentioned above started the WC final 2010. The 7th player mentioned above joined them after the WC. Most of those players won the EC 2008, WC 2010, EC 2012.
And now add Messi to that group.
3 of these players (Xavi, Iniesta, Messi) are not just world class players, but exceptional world class players and at least 1 level above most of the other great world class players.
Pep still did well to dominate La Liga and Europe with that team, but the core of that team also dominated the world without him and Messi.
Just shows what a great team he had.
The first 6 Barca players mentioned above started the WC final 2010. The 7th player mentioned above joined them after the WC. Most of those players won the EC 2008, WC 2010, EC 2012.
And now add Messi to that group.
3 of these players (Xavi, Iniesta, Messi) are not just world class players, but exceptional world class players and at least 1 level above most of the other great world class players.
Pep still did well to dominate La Liga and Europe with that team, but the core of that team also dominated the world without him and Messi.
Just shows what a great team he had.
What you are not understanding is he's never had to not that he cannot. That's a big difference but also an understandable big question mark but the guy is hardly going to join Aberdeen just to say "Hey I can do it too.". Also in this day and age its impossible to win like Fergie did, even peak Sir Alex wouldn't repeat that these days. I mean what do people want from him? To leave City and win the league with West Ham?
Thats not how football works these days. Its possible for a one off but no new club has come through and maintained success these days that aren't carrying pocket aces in comparison to the competition. Dortmund had a moment, then back to reality, Atletico the same. Spurs almost won a trophy but came 3rd in a race of 2 horses. Can Liverpool maintain this success? We'll see. They certainly have the potential but we said the same about Atletico and Klopps Dortmund, neither of whom could kick on to be consistent trophy winners.
The reality is the only new clubs to consistently start winning are City and PSG and we both know why. Other than that its the same clubs all time. Bayern, Juve and the big 2 in Spains dominance is pretty much complete even with their weakest teams for years or some shocking managers.
Still a failure that he ran away from though and I love Klopp btw. The problem is people are putting him on a pedestal as some God but like Pep he's not, he's a top manager. How he'd do elsewhere is unknown though.
If Bayern wins the CL this year again then it will be pretty shite feeling for him considering they have won it just before he came there, and will win it few years after. And his biggest achievement with them was semi final of CL. He is really not the greatest mamager when it comes of CL, isn't he?
100% its hard to imagine not winning with those players at your disposal.
I used to wonder whether he'd ever return to Barca but I seen an interview recently where he described the pressure from within the club, the fans and the media and it sounded like he enjoyed his time there but I got the impression the pressure is something that would stop him going back.
Hes not won the cl since hes had messi.
Has he even reached the final since ?
Has he even reached the final since ?
Wouldn't say he ran away. He admitted that he didn't think he was the best man for the job at Dortmund anymore and said that he would leave. He lost Gotze and Lewandowski in the summer of 2014 so he was starting from a weaker position anyway. Dortmund were always the underdogs even after his back to back title wins. Bayern were always the favourites just like City were at the start of the season just gone and will be again next season.
Liverpool were favourites again Spurs in the Champions League final and we did ok in that. It'll be interesting to see how he handles next season but I imagine it was the same after his first title win with Dortmund and that didn't go too badly.
No
He wasn't forced to join the treble winners, nor was he forced to join City. He chose to, which is why you can't complain that he's held to such a high standard. Invariably, if your team has the most resources then they are expected to do the best. So when they don't, genuine questions have to be asked. I expect him, when picking up arguably the best squad of players in the league, then spending over £700m on it in 4 aeasons to do better than 2 leagues titles and finish nearly 20 points off the leaders, while never getting remotely close to lifting the CL. You keep saying he's held to an unfair standard. He's not, he's held to the standard you should hold a manager to when he always has the best at his disposal and never has to work for it.
You bring up Liverpool. Perfect example. As much as I hate to admit it, Klopp has done an incredible job at Liverpool. That team wasn't remotely as good as the City side Pep took over. He built the team up without spending three quarters of a billion pounds. He's merged youth with experience. In short, he done a fantastic job and has won the league and the CL. He had options to go to established teams, but chose to take a harder route. If Klopp proceeded to spend north of £150m a year for the next four years, you would expect that team to continue challenging and achieving. And if it didn't, questions would rightly be asked.
Every year someone wins the Champions League. Doesn't mean they were the best side that year - just that day the final was played.
Ran away doesn't seem accurate. Klopp experienced difficult times at Dortmund and took over a very average club with financial problems. In 2015 Klopp was at the end of a 7 years cycle, it was a difficult season but he was already thinking about leaving the previous year and left at the end of his contract.
Not quite. He asked for his contract to be terminated due to believing that he wasn't the best man for the job anymore. His contract was set to expire in 2018.
This is completely true and I'm surprised you've admitted it, I imagine most City fans would secretly agree with you but would never say it publicly.
It's another reason why I think he's getting so much criticism. He's really got absolutely everything a manager could want at City and he's still failing miserably in Europe.
You've got the best squad, you spend more than everyone else in the League every single season, he's got the directors of football from Barcelona that he's comfortable with above him that were clearly preparing for Pep years before he actually arrived and he's bigger than City so he can do whatever he likes.
He doesn't have any ex high profile city players in the media questioning him because there aren't really any high profile ex city players. No legends on the board to monitor him and cause friction like at Barcelona.
It's like he's playing FIFA on semi pro.
Aka Sebastian Vettel
Hard to argue with that. And they kindof knew it was trash, before the season began, but still went with it.
I don't understand why he puts so much faith in Rodri and Gündogan when neither have justified it. Silva and Mahrez on the other hand always impress in limited opportunities.
I understand he's worried about being vulnerable to counter attacks but playing with a double pivot never solved that for city and their attacking midfielders actually help as they rarely ever lose the ball cheaply. Strange lack of trust in what got him this far as a manager.
I understand he's worried about being vulnerable to counter attacks but playing with a double pivot never solved that for city and their attacking midfielders actually help as they rarely ever lose the ball cheaply. Strange lack of trust in what got him this far as a manager.
Pep shat the bed one again. I don't understand this supposed genius again when he left David Silva, Riyad Mahrez, Bernardo Silva and Phil Foden on the bench and starts with seven defensive players and three centerbacks against the 7th team in Farmer's League. This was peak Mourinho. What a fecking idiot.
You are right he extended it in 2013, I forgot about it.
People discounting his league record though. He takes teams to a level few managers can with his style of play and goal scoring abilities.
That Barce team was great but it didn’t play anything like how Pep got them playing before he took over, he revolutionised the game of football for a few years back then.
His Champions League run is really poor since though I can’t explain that. Smashes the league with 100 points but goes out in the CL to Spurs. Season before they won The league but went out to Monaco as well....it’s a strange one.
That Barce team was great but it didn’t play anything like how Pep got them playing before he took over, he revolutionised the game of football for a few years back then.
His Champions League run is really poor since though I can’t explain that. Smashes the league with 100 points but goes out in the CL to Spurs. Season before they won The league but went out to Monaco as well....it’s a strange one.
One thanks to Messi the other thanks to that Norewgian referee whose name I cant be bothered to look up.
Absolute fraud this past 12 months. Underperformed all season
I watched the game and it was really shit. No fluidity whatsoever. I don't know why he played that system. Maybe he underestimated Lyon? The league chemistry was gone.
City are usually alot quicker in transition from defence to attack.
City are usually alot quicker in transition from defence to attack.
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I don't like this guy, and I don't like his football or the tactical fouling that he instructs so that opposing teams can't counter. So, I like the fact that he crashes out like clockwork every year, and long may it continue.
Honestly that was not really my main point (though I think that it was very likely that we could have lost 3-0 that match). My point was that as great as SAF is (and IMO he is the greatest ever manager) he only won the UCL twice, once when we were clearly the second best and once when we got saved from John Terry.
To call people frauds for winning UCL only twice IMO is ridiculous. For that I used SAF as an example and people here got hurt showing their hypocrisy in process.
It is the same batshit insanity that Koop was called Flopp just 14 months ago. It is fine to take the piss but when people actually try to really argue those crazy opinions, it makes things weird.
Its really surprising (may be arrogant) that he hasn't changed a bit of his defensive game. Klopp rightly identified the issue and he stopped the "attack only" mentality.
He's a great manager obviously, just not "the best ever" that's all.
Pep said:
If you can’t get past the quarter finals with that team then the problem is you not them mate.
is that a real quote, saying the players aint good enough?
What more does he want ??I hate the media, and their soft questions. What about VAR on the second goal he's asked? Same thing with ESPN they spend 10 minutes discussing the VAR and the alleged offside/foul on the second goal. Carragher, Roberto Martinez and Mica Richards (who must be the dumbest pundit alive) went on a deep discussion on the merits of VAR at this point.
What
Da
feck
Why can't the media stop rimming Pep's arsehole? Are they paid PR people or journalists?
The question should have been why did you setup with S*E*V*E*N defensive players and three centerbacks in the biggest match of your season you absolute coward? Why the feck do you not trust your team ever to play its natural game in Europe's biggest matches? Why didn't you go toe to toe with a team from a farmer's league.
VAR my arse
They are sports journalists. Like political journalists they rely on access so they have to be respectful. And they know that while Pep does have to turn up at the pressers, he doesn't actually have to answer their questions. So they try and dress them up in flattery and code to get the nuggets they want for their copy.
ESPN + CBS Sports pundits don't need access to Pep's pressers. You had Carragher, Roberto Martinez and Micah Richards on that panel. Micah is an airhead fine, but I expected more analysis and insight from Carragher and Martinez who's himself a coach. Nada. "I wouldn't question Pep's tactics" was the direct quote from Martinez. Well, if you're that much of an arselicker than don't go on TV.
ESPN was the same with Steve Nicol arguing ad nauseaum against that call. Not a pip squeak on the tactics and the Mourinhization of Pep with 7 defenders.
I assumed he was talking about his City team, which play nothing like his Barca teams did. I also didn't enjoy those Barca teams as good as they were.