Absolutely right. Louis van Gaal preceded him.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
LVG coached until 2000, Pep took over in 2008. Rijkaard didn't play with a high press. So you're saying he needs to find a team that has never played with a high press in it's history?
I tell you what it must be awful for Peps backroom staff knowing that while they are working hard coaching the players how to play and trying to get the best out of them Pep will get all the credit for it despite doing very little.
Wot
Cruijff shaped the whole club, Van Gaal coached there and made Guardiola his captain. The Dutch style is the dna of Barça, also after 2000. I‘m wondering what you consider pressing high? Playing position football in the half of the opponent and winning it back quickly is a high press ain‘t it?LVG coached until 2000, Pep took over in 2008. Rijkaard didn't play with a high press. So you're saying he needs to find a team that has never played with a high press in it's history?
Frank Rijkaard preceded him and used a style adaptee from Linus Michaels and Johan Cruyff, LVG left 6 years before Pep arrived.
My point is Guardiola played under Van Gaal and there is a continuity in Barça‘s style. The Dutch style. Are you arguing Guardiola had to teach Barça how to press?
Pep absolutely benefited from having Riijkard at the helm before him, the same as he benefited from having a Bayern team that just completed the treble(!) under Heynckes before him, and again, having a stacked squad at City that Mancini/Pellegrini built, winning 2 out of 4 league titles before he took the helm.
This is not to discredit Pep as he undoubtedly elevated these teams, but these teams were either undoubtedly the best or second best in their respective leagues to begin with.
'bUt BaRcElOnA fInIsHeD 3rD iN 20o8!!' - point still stands.
This is not to discredit Pep as he undoubtedly elevated these teams, but these teams were either undoubtedly the best or second best in their respective leagues to begin with.
'bUt BaRcElOnA fInIsHeD 3rD iN 20o8!!' - point still stands.
No, they were already doing that under Rijkaard
He absolutely elevated them. However it’s like taking over City in 2016 or whenever - a quality team that won big trophies not so long back but were in a slump. It’s very different from creating brand new success like Klopp did for example where you have to teach the team new tricks rather than improving their pre-existing and forgotten ones. I think Klopp is also unlucky not to have one both close title races the two teams have here the gap in wealth especially of the illuminate kind, making the difference eventually.
Exactly.
He's the best manager ever when it comes into picking clubs that will help him retain his records. Barca, Bayern and City. Wouldn't surprise me if after City he quits club football and starts managing top national team with plenty of quality players and lead them to glory.
People are still trying to discuss Pep's ability. He's the single most important thing to happen to City after being bought by oil money.
As sad as it is to say it, without him I believe United would have won 2 titles at most or 1 at least in the last 10 years, then add the knock off effect of him being there like, then Halland signing for Pep City is attractive than signing for United. you see his influence is going to Sir Alex level.
Even today some people, Jamie Carragher, said Ferguson had zero influence in the game during his time, this is same to what people (opposition City fans) will say regarding Pep. Same as United before Fergie was a once in lifetime league winners and he turned them into chronic league winners is carbon copy of Pep's time at City. He has turned city from a once in 3 years title winners to 4 times winners in 5 years. No matter what you say what he does works and works very well.
We have to hope when Pep's leaves we are in very good shape and pounce on the neck of the league.
In terms of getting a team to perform at peak level, he’s the greatest coach I’ve ever seen and I’ll argue in the modern era.
The way he gets players to absolutely commit to his system, drop their egos and perform greater than the sum of their parts despite being top players themselves is unmatched.
I’ll continue to say it, failing to sign him after he left Barca is the most significant event of the post Fergie era.
The way he gets players to absolutely commit to his system, drop their egos and perform greater than the sum of their parts despite being top players themselves is unmatched.
I’ll continue to say it, failing to sign him after he left Barca is the most significant event of the post Fergie era.
The top managers do that. Same with Klopp. Also it has to do with the way the clubs are run too. It’s no coincidence that every Brighton player fits their system perfectly and that’s regardless of manager (under both Potter and Zerbi). Clubs are no longer near one man shows, the entire structure of the club has a prolonged and somewhat singular vision and all decisions are to that aim. City were buying players suited for possession footy long before Pep - even under prior managers they were consistently adding players like KDB, Silva etc in line with that.
Moyes took over a multiwinning league squad and look how that turned out, we have still not recovered and we’re ten years later
The most important thing to happen to City is that they were lucky to be based in the same city as United. Second is oil money, third is close between Pep and Txiki.
I get you on the bolded part.If God forbid, Pep drops dead today, City with all it's oil money, Txiki, any other creature there they will drop 2-3 levels below. They will become a 80 - 86 points team at absolute best and be 75 - 82 points in normal seasons.
I think Carragher meant that no one is emulating Ferguson while they will emulate Pep. Ferguson was the master of adapting to his players and mixed things up and won with every group whereas the players adapt to Pep and his system. You can’t emulate what Ferguson did. Oh christ I just said that.
You can’t copy Ferguson. He had some unique abilities and a magic mind/hand.
A lot of even world class managers fail to win a European trophy or/and fail to defend a league title while being at big clubs. Ferguson did both with an underdog team before he even joined United.
Yep. Completely same thing.
You’re joking surely. Ronaldinho was the dominant feature of that team, they played his way, and he’d never have been able to play such system-driven football
He meant in simpler words that, Ferguson didn't influence football that much, and Gary had to defend Ferguson with rotation aspect. But do us United fans care absolutely not. Because the old man gave us unparalleled happy days. Same is with City fans now about Pep.
Us opposition fans will try and poke holes ( Oil money, Pep goes to good clubs, he inherited good squad) in their dominance but I guarantee you no City fans cares what others say.
Nobody can copy nobody. Using your logic Pep/Zidane started from Team B coaching they won 'bigger trophies' almost immediately thereafter, did Ferguson copy that? Is Ferguson inferior because he didn't achieve success right after playing career/ from coaching team B Absolutely not.
I've said countless time here, we should never judge people by comparing them with others. People should be judged solely in their own abilities and success + what they achieve.
Pointless post. If Ferguson had managed United youth team in the 90s and the got promoted he may very well have done it. You are comparing Aberdeen to Barca/Real who had world class players and a goat.
And again when will you stop pretending to be a United fan. I can’t imagine as a United fan investing that much time constantly writing essays about how good a rival manager is. One day you may be brave enough and admit to be a City fan.
Thank feckin god.
Ronaldinho was a magician on his own, he was never born to play such systemic and mechanic football that City plays, where hardly any individual shines a lot.
You don't think De Bruyne shines a lot? He's reached a level individually that few midfielders in the Prem ever have. How's he winning player of the season awards if he's not shining? Is Haaland not shining? He's on the verge of scoring 60 goals in his debut season. Rodri? Isn't he arguably the world's best DM? I could go on.
No City player ever has ever been in contention for Balloon D'Or, not even close, De Bruyne only has one 3rd place.
The only now one is Haaland, and that's cause he is scoring at GOAT rate.
Last edited:
That's a different point though. City haven't historically brought super stars, Balon Dor level players like Neymar, Mbappe. Haaland is their first such player.
The point being made was that no City player individually shines. This is simply not true. How does De Bruyne get a 3rd place Balon Dor, a few domestic player of the year awards and gets to be regarded as one of the very best midfielders of his generation without shining? Raheem Sterling didn't shine when he scored 32 goals in 1 season? (no winger in prem history bar Salah has ever scored more in a single season). Gundogan didn't shine when he had that tremendous season topscoring for strikerless City and leading them to the title? He is not shining right now? Have you not watched him recently? Ruben Dias, Rodri, J Stones and Ake this season?
I've already touched on Haaland. What other team in England would give him the chance of scoring 60 goals in a season, and shatter records?
Rijkaard's Barca were a great blueprint for Pep though.
It was Rijkaard who primarily pushed his CB's as high up as possible to close the space behind the midfield. There was an emphasis on keeping the ball in the oppo's half and in winning it back and countering. Of course, Ronaldinho was a magician, and he did emphasis flair and creativity as well (and they had the players to do it). They also wanted to dominate the ball and keep possession. When Pep came in, they had all the elements there already for him to take it up a notch.
His transfer record at City is incredible. Many on here believe in the myth that he just keeps binning expensive players to buy others but when you look at his top 15 transfers while at City (not sure about the fees, took them from transfermarkt but they might be off sometimes):
1. Grealish £100m - still at the club and having an important role this year
2. Dias £60m - still there and important
3. Rodri £60m - plays every game
4. Mahrez £60m - important squad player
5. Laporte £55m - important squad player
6. Cancelo £50m - used to be vital, will probably be sold for profit
7. Haaland £50m - incredible
8. Mendy £48m - in jail
9. Stones £47m - recycled into a class defender / defensive midfielder
10. Walker £45m - gave then years if quality service
11. Sane £45m - sold for profit
12. Bernardo £40m - incredible
13. Phillips £38m - shite
14. Ake £37m - turned into a quality defender
15. Ederson £35m - awesome
So basically out of 15 players he bought, maybe 2-3 were really overpriced, 11 are still there and have a role, 1 has been sold for significant profit after some good years, 1 is on loan after some decent years, 1 has no real use and 1 is in jail. And when you go down the list, it still has some quality cheap signings like Akanji, Alvarez, and hardly any that were complete waste of money.
Compare this to our list in the same period:
1. Pogba £90m - released for nothing at the end of his contract
2. Antony £80m - probably going to be a decent squad player
3. Maguire £80m - awful
4. Sancho £75m - awful
5. Casemiro £70m - probably good, though short term signing
6. Bruno £58m - awesome
7. Martinez £55m - awesome
8. Wan-Bissaka £50m - overpriced like hell
9. Fred £50m - overpriced as hell
10. VDB £38m - waste of money
11. Mkhitaryan £36m - waste of money
12. Varane £35m - great when healthy
13. Lindelof £34m - mostly bench fodder
14. Matic £34m - had maybe two good seasons
15. Bailly £30m - waste of money
If anything, out of those two clubs during this era we have been utilizing 'replace expensive player with another expensive player' approach far more.
1. Grealish £100m - still at the club and having an important role this year
2. Dias £60m - still there and important
3. Rodri £60m - plays every game
4. Mahrez £60m - important squad player
5. Laporte £55m - important squad player
6. Cancelo £50m - used to be vital, will probably be sold for profit
7. Haaland £50m - incredible
8. Mendy £48m - in jail
9. Stones £47m - recycled into a class defender / defensive midfielder
10. Walker £45m - gave then years if quality service
11. Sane £45m - sold for profit
12. Bernardo £40m - incredible
13. Phillips £38m - shite
14. Ake £37m - turned into a quality defender
15. Ederson £35m - awesome
So basically out of 15 players he bought, maybe 2-3 were really overpriced, 11 are still there and have a role, 1 has been sold for significant profit after some good years, 1 is on loan after some decent years, 1 has no real use and 1 is in jail. And when you go down the list, it still has some quality cheap signings like Akanji, Alvarez, and hardly any that were complete waste of money.
Compare this to our list in the same period:
1. Pogba £90m - released for nothing at the end of his contract
2. Antony £80m - probably going to be a decent squad player
3. Maguire £80m - awful
4. Sancho £75m - awful
5. Casemiro £70m - probably good, though short term signing
6. Bruno £58m - awesome
7. Martinez £55m - awesome
8. Wan-Bissaka £50m - overpriced like hell
9. Fred £50m - overpriced as hell
10. VDB £38m - waste of money
11. Mkhitaryan £36m - waste of money
12. Varane £35m - great when healthy
13. Lindelof £34m - mostly bench fodder
14. Matic £34m - had maybe two good seasons
15. Bailly £30m - waste of money
If anything, out of those two clubs during this era we have been utilizing 'replace expensive player with another expensive player' approach far more.
The discision to name Moyes as successor and not do everything to land this guy will go down as the most significant decision this club has made in the last decade and for another couple of decades.
Last edited:
This 2 stuff give you away.
Him getting the job at City was prepared well before he actually took the position.
You forgot Lukaku, another flop.
I was trying to make this point a few pages back. People refuse to see past the money argument. But when 60%+ of your top signings are hits, you’ve got a great chance of doing well.
The difference between Man Utd and City since 2016 has not been money. It has been largely a difference in coaching standards and the ability to get signings to fit into a system.
Last edited:
He joined City in 2016. We had three years to ensure he did not go there. I don’t know how much we tried (if at all), but failing to land him has had and will continue to have huge consequences.
I know when he joined, I'm just telling you works for his arrival well in preparation well before he came there.
Agreed. That’s why it doesn’t work simply looking through the City squad and complaining about how many £50 million players they have. We would have that as well if we didn’t completely fail at signing players of this price.
Anyone doubting Pep now is quite frankly just deluding themselves. He’s right up there with the best, oil money or not. What he does with the 11 players on the pitch is spectacular the majority of the time.
His transfer record is absolutely incredible. He's also shown an incredible eye for when to stick with players (Grealish, Stones) and when to be ruthless and sell for profit/great price (Sane, Sterling, Jesus, Torres). Does he have any flops apart from Phillips? Mendy is a bit of a special case.
Another thing is that how many of those City signings were Caf favourites before they signed them? In a lot of cases, people here wouldn’t have picked them ahead of the signings we made.
People forget that our expensive flops were expensive because they were actually very good players before they set foot at Old Trafford.
People who think Qatar are coming to save us are delusional.
Supporting Ten Hag and having the patience to let him build a squad that suit is style is our best chance of catching City. Otherwise, you’re just filling the team with more expensive flops.