Penalties

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
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We are always accused of being awarded penalties, particularly at Old Trafford, that other teams would not have been awarded.

Even if that were true WTF has happened this season? The tackle from behind on Rudd, just before the penalty that was given, was a blatent foul and potentially a red card offence. And it hasn't been the only incident this season.
 
Referees are afraid of the papers. Ruud doesn't get a penalty when he deserves one because all those fecking hacks will write about how intimidated they are by Man United.
 
It's the same everwhere. West Brom should have had a penalty today, but it was right in front of the Kop and suprise, suprise it wasn't given.
The media just focus on us, because we are an easy target. You either love United or you hate us. There is no middle ground.
 
Kanu's last minute goal had another Arsenal literally shaking hands with the keeper but was allowed - Ole's seen a couple of his efforts wiped out ( vs Bolton at OT last season & against Zala ) when his mates were running back from offside positions - & the Press talk about double standards favouring United!
 
RVN has earned himself a reputation as a cheat.

This is always going to be in the refs minds when such an incident occurs, and will obviously work against him...

Same happens with Diouf
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>RVN has earned himself a reputation as a cheat.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

and why hasn't owen? (last dive versus valencia)


ruud's not a cheat, he's just like any other forward.....
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Owen's vs Valencia was a penalty..he was clearly checked after beating 3 of their players...

Striker's go down when they are fouled thesedays to draw attention to it, some more so than others..

Thats different from diving when you aren't followed...like RVN

Like it or not that the way many see him
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>Owen's vs Valencia was a penalty..he was clearly checked after beating 3 of their players...

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Give over Davo.. he clearly dived.


Just like he's done for England in the last two world cups.


face it, he's a diver.
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If you want to see it like that then carry on, I'm not going to get into a "Yes/No debate"

But thats a reason why RVN will find it more difficult to get decisions thesedays...as he has been shown to be a cheat
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>Owen's vs Valencia was a penalty..he was clearly checked after beating 3 of their players...

Striker's go down when they are fouled thesedays to draw attention to it, some more so than others..

Thats different from diving when you aren't followed...like RVN

Like it or not that the way many see him</strong><hr></blockquote>

There might have been minimal contact but it wasn't enough to warrant a penalty against Valencia. Very much like when Aimar went down.
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

But thats a reason why RVN will find it more difficult to get decisions thesedays...as he has been shown to be a cheat</strong><hr></blockquote>

thats just it.

so has owen.

of course, Liverpool fans won't see it that way, their player only 'rides' tackles... and never goes down unchallenged (eg Argentina 98)
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

thats just it.

so has owen.

of course, Liverpool fans won't see it that way, their player only 'rides' tackles... and never goes down unchallenged (eg Argentina 98)</strong><hr></blockquote>

The one where he was flying full pace and made contact with the Bargie? Ropey penalty admittedly, but a long time back, and no where as blatant and clear as RVN vs Ipswich last season..

What ref is going to be able to put that out if his mind?

I'm just giving you my opinion re your pen not being given yesterday....you can't oppose it on its merits, only try and contrast with Owen. Do you think it is wrong?
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Originally posted by Gio:
<strong>

There might have been minimal contact but it wasn't enough to warrant a penalty against Valencia. Very much like when Aimar went down.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If the defender had't checked him he was clean through....

It was a penalty
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

The one where he was flying full pace and made contact with the Bargie? Ropey penalty admittedly, but a long time back, and no where as blatant and clear as RVN vs Ipswich last season..

What ref is going to be able to put that out if his mind?

I'm just giving you my opinion re your pen not being given yesterday....you can't oppose it on its merits, only try and contrast with Owen. Do you think it is wrong?</strong><hr></blockquote>


I think the media made a big thing of RVN's pen against Ipswish.. which was unfair, coz its something all forwards do..

Owen on the other hand, has also had his fair share of dubious pens.. but the media doesn't make a big deal out of it,, maybe coz he's one of Englands main players..


one rule for one........
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>


I think the media made a big thing of RVN's pen against Ipswish.. which was unfair, coz its something all forwards do..

Owen on the other has also had his fair share of dubious pens.. but the media doesn't make a big deal out of it,, maybe coz he's one of Englands main players..


one rule for one........</strong><hr></blockquote>


Its not unfair and its not something all forwards do - it was a blatant dive, thus cheating. Not all forwards cheat, thats an absurd generalisation.

As I said, to go down when you're fouled is one thing, to dive when you're not is another.

When someone is caught doing this the reputation sticks..look at the stigma attached to Klinsman.

RVN won a ropey penalty against Boro, this is a recent example that will be in refs minds.

I'm not blinkered in that I think our players are angels, Diouf's stupid rolling and exageration costs him..look at the "penalty" vs the Arse in the CS..blatant, but he went down as if he'd been shot.
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


Its not unfair and its not something all forwards do - it was a blatant dive, thus cheating. Not all forwards cheat, thats an absurd generalisation.

.</strong><hr></blockquote>

in that case, i think Owens a cheat..

Only a Liverpool fan would deny that he doesn't dive.


BTW argentina 98, was a blatant dive, some would even call it cheating.


yet, he can do no wrong in the media's eyes.
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


Its not unfair and its not something all forwards do - it was a blatant dive, thus cheating. Not all forwards cheat, thats an absurd generalisation.

As I said, to go down when you're fouled is one thing, to dive when you're not is another.
When someone is caught doing this the reputation sticks..look at the stigma attached to Klinsman.

RVN won a ropey penalty against Boro, this is a recent example that will be in refs minds.

I'm not blinkered in that I think our players are angels, Diouf's stupid rolling and exageration costs him..look at the "penalty" vs the Arse in the CS..blatant, but he went down as if he'd been shot.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry Davo, you are blinkered when it comes to Owen! To everyone but 'Pool fans, he has a reputation for diving, the England one being an absolute classic! There appeared to be no significant conact at all in that case.
You must get away from this "Angel Owen" idea, because no-one wears it anymore! Just like RVN, he is a modern forward, and unfortunately, or not, penalty kicks are an important source of goals. I would be interested to know if anyone can name me a forward who has not, shall we say, "gone down a little easily". The only difference is, some are good at it, and some are not, and it's up to the referee to spot the difference.
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I don't give a flying feck if Owen is a member of the English highboard team.

I think that Davo has a point. Rightly or wrongly RVN is gaining a rep. He is so strong and has so frequently demonstrated that it is very hard to bring him down, that when he does go down too easily or even from a normal illegal tackle (as happened yesterday) refs may be giving defenders the benefit of the doubt.

His strength, speed and determination are his main atrributes, enabling him to retain the ball in the box, where he is lethal. So he should play to them and be seen to play to them.
 
Ref's read the paper's like anyone else, they do make mistakes but that's part of the game. No-one is perfect, as much as they deny it they are influenced by the crowd. Look at Utd - Chelsea at the start of the season. Scholes had a blatant penalty turned down, even Chelsea fans/players have admitted it was a penalty. If that had been in front of the Stretford End or a liverpool player in front of the Kop then 99% of the time that would have been given
 
Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

in that case, i think Owens a cheat..

Only a Liverpool fan would deny that he doesn't dive.


BTW argentina 98, was a blatant dive, some would even call it cheating.


yet, he can do no wrong in the media's eyes.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Do no wrong in the media's eyes? He's currently being slated on a daily basis for his poor form...so that hardly stands up...

I note that you're not denying that RVN is a cheat, instead focusing on accusing others of similar..
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Originally posted by andy27457:
<strong>

Sorry Davo, you are blinkered when it comes to Owen! To everyone but 'Pool fans, he has a reputation for diving, the England one being an absolute classic! There appeared to be no significant conact at all in that case.
You must get away from this "Angel Owen" idea, because no-one wears it anymore! Just like RVN, he is a modern forward, and unfortunately, or not, penalty kicks are an important source of goals. I would be interested to know if anyone can name me a forward who has not, shall we say, "gone down a little easily". The only difference is, some are good at it, and some are not, and it's up to the referee to spot the difference.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I disagree

You keep refering to an Owen incident from 4 years ago, where's your recent examples? I'm not going to explain the differences between falling when fouled and diving again...

If you don't think that certain strikers suffer due to their reputations then fair enough...I do though, and believe that RVN has brought this problem onto himself
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


Do no wrong in the media's eyes? He's currently being slated on a daily basis for his poor form...so that hardly stands up...

</strong><hr></blockquote>

You do the same with some United players...
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>RVN has earned himself a reputation as a cheat.

This is always going to be in the refs minds when such an incident occurs, and will obviously work against him...

Same happens with Diouf</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is true i think

My missus has even noticed it when he plays for Holland and she doesn't like it one bit

I'd prefer to call it 'Trying too Hard'

;)
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Any forward, whoever they play for, will try to make the most of contact in the penalty area.

Owen is no more of a 'cheat' than RvN and both will get penalties when they shouldn't as well as fail to get them when they should.

I was at SJP yesterday and saw Bellamy not only fail to be awarded a penalty when blatently shoved in the back but also get booked for diving.

Hyypia yesterday was lucky too to avoid a penalty and a card.

In my opinion RvN did not dive yesterday.
 
Originally posted by marchingontogether:
<strong>Any forward, whoever they play for, will try to make the most of contact in the penalty area.

Owen is no more of a 'cheat' than RvN and both will get penalties when they shouldn't as well as fail to get them when they should.

I was at SJP yesterday and saw Bellamy not only fail to be awarded a penalty when blatently shoved in the back but also get booked for diving.

Hyypia yesterday was lucky too to avoid a penalty and a card.

In my opinion RvN did not dive yesterday.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Didn't Hyppia afterwards claim that it wasn't a penalty, while even part of the liverpool fans thought it was a blatant penalty??? That's cheating too ya know ;)
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


I note that you're not denying that RVN is a cheat, instead focusing on accusing others of similar..</strong><hr></blockquote>

no he's not a cheat.


but IF you think he's a cheat.. then, by them standards, so is Owen.


understandski?
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


I disagree

You keep refering to an Owen incident from 4 years ago, where's your recent examples? I'm not going to explain the differences between falling when fouled and diving again...

If you don't think that certain strikers suffer due to their reputations then fair enough...I do though, and believe that RVN has brought this problem onto himself</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry Davo, It was a far more recent incident I was talking about, try the penalty against Argentina in the recent World Cup. Now delighted though I was to see it go in, I thinkm it is a prime example of a dive by St Michael. Contact was minimal, if at all, and Owen went over like a sack of spuds. Now that was "a dive". The RVN fall yesterday was "falling when fouled", as was Roberts when Hyppia tackled him. Now I think I've got that fairly clear, I'm not so sure that you have!
And finally, you are right, I think some players do suffer due to their reputations. My point is that it is up to referees to forget reputations, and to referee as they see it, based upon each incident. Isn't this what they are payed for!!

Incidentally, I didn't think you would agree that Owen has a reputation for going down a little too easily, but would be interested to hear from others. Do they agree about Owen?
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I don't know. Quite clearly Owen has won 2 penalties for england against Argentina, that were at best dubious. But in general i don't think he has a reputation for diving. I may be wrong though.
Ruud is running the risk of earning himself a reputation. He needs to be careful otherwise he may find some decisions going against him.
Fans of other clubs are always going to look at penalty incidents and say the player divided. That part of the rivalry between fans. Its when the media start getting on players backs they have to worry.

I haven't seen the incident so i can't comment on that particular one. There are certainly players who look for contact when they get into the box.
 
Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

no he's not a cheat.


but IF you think he's a cheat.. then, by them standards, so is Owen.


understandski?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No Giggzy, thats not the case

Not everything that is relevant to one of your players has an equal footing with one of ours...

RVN is a cheat, there's no doubting that...if you can make yourself feel better about this by believing Owen to be the same then carry on..
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Originally posted by andy27457:
<strong>

Sorry Davo, It was a far more recent incident I was talking about, try the penalty against Argentina in the recent World Cup. Now delighted though I was to see it go in, I thinkm it is a prime example of a dive by St Michael. Contact was minimal, </strong><hr></blockquote>

He exagerated the fall after being fouled..


This is different from diving when you haven't beem fouled. e.g. RVN at Ipswich

Its not a hard concept to grasp...

I don't believe RVN did dive yesterday. It was a clear penalty, and "missed" by the ref...no doubt influenced by the opinion the ref has of RVN as a player who goes down easily in the box. You're right, the ref should treat each instance on its own merits, not on any past incident...but in reality this is extremely hard to do
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Originally posted by Davo:

He exagerated the fall after being fouled..

and therefore is a cheat

You're right, the ref should treat each instance on its own merits, not on any past incident...but in reality this is extremely hard to do

Luckily refs are not as biased as you Davo

<hr></blockquote>
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The ref didn't call the penalty because he wasn't looking in that direction, not because of RVN's 'diving' record.
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

He exagerated the fall after being fouled..


This is different from diving when you haven't beem fouled. e.g. RVN at Ipswich

Its not a hard concept to grasp...

I don't believe RVN did dive yesterday. It was a clear penalty, and "missed" by the ref...no doubt influenced by the opinion the ref has of RVN as a player who goes down easily in the box. You're right, the ref should treat each instance on its own merits, not on any past incident...but in reality this is extremely hard to do</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can understand your defence of Owen, but you have to admit that on occasions he does go down very easily.
Against Argentina the contact was negligible.
I agree that there have been times when Ruud has gone down when little or no contact was made and he has to be careful.
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Originally posted by Ever hopefull:
<strong>

I can understand your defence of Owen, but you have to admit that on occasions he does go down very easily.
Against Argentina the contact was negligible.
I agree that there have been times when Ruud has gone down when little or no contact was made and he has to be careful.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The first penalty vs the Bargies in 98 was a bit ropey...but as was flat out and ran into a defender..

He was clearly fouled for the second one, and went down to bring this to the refs attention - this is something that is pretty standard thesedays, but if you're fouled a penalty should be given - this is very different from going down when you're not fouled/touched..which is clear cheating
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I don't remember seeing RVN go down without being touched. He exaggerates being fouled, but like you said, that's standard nowdays.
 
Originally posted by marchingontogether:
<strong>Originally posted by Davo:
He exagerated the fall after being fouled..

and therefore is a cheat

You're right, the ref should treat each instance on its own merits, not on any past incident...but in reality this is extremely hard to do

Luckily refs are not as biased as you Davo
</strong><hr></blockquote>

For falling when fouled? You've failed to grasp the point....

Refs are likely to be biased by previous incidents, they're only human
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

No Giggzy, thats not the case

Not everything that is relevant to one of your players has an equal footing with one of ours...

RVN is a cheat, there's no doubting that...if you can make yourself feel better about this by believing Owen to be the same then carry on..</strong><hr></blockquote>


in your opinion RVN's a cheat..


well in mine, Owens worse.


which would make him a cheat, according to your theory.


now, how easy is that to understand.. even for a liverpool fan?


i don't mind fair comment.. but branding RVN a cheat. and not Owen is biased beyond belief..


carry on, davo... bravo.
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

For falling when fouled? You've failed to grasp the point....

Refs are likely to be biased by previous incidents, they're only human</strong><hr></blockquote>

It is you that fails to grasp the point Davo.

Do you not agree that exagerating the foul is a way of cheating?
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