PED's| Russia banned from Paralympics 2016

adexkola said:
Feels conveniently placed right before Rio (surprised it's still kicking off between Zika and security issues). Bit witch-hunty. How do these reports go? Do they provide an opportunity for the accused to cross-examine evidence/witnesses?
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If this was an elaborate state sponsored program then the punishment is completely justified imo.
 
justboy68 said:
Erm do you realise the UFC has one of the most stringent drug testing programs in sports? They've brought USADA in to run a comprehensive random testing program and it is catching people including some of the biggest names.

The sports you are looking for that are mostly turning a blind eye are the likes of football and tennis. I read a stat once that in 2013 or so there were more random drug tests done in curling than in tennis.
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That's what I was thinking. Is there any MMA fighter that hasn't failed a dope test?
 
justboy68 said:
Erm do you realise the UFC has one of the most stringent drug testing programs in sports? They've brought USADA in to run a comprehensive random testing program and it is catching people including some of the biggest names.

The sports you are looking for that are mostly turning a blind eye are the likes of football and tennis. I read a stat once that in 2013 or so there were more random drug tests done in curling than in tennis.
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I'm not looking for anything, because the reality is obvious. I followed cycling for long enough to know how effective 'stringent drug testing programs' are. Cycling is a sport that's been chasing down cheats for years, even successfully weeding out cheats that included some of the sport's biggest names. They're still fighting an uphill battle in keeping the sport clean, one that I'm confident they're losing when you look at the bigger picture, as they always have been.

The UFC brought in USADA, which is great. It's a nice statement of intent. When those comprehensive random testing programs actually start to clean sports up, I'll get on board with the enthusiasm. Until then, it's naive to believe in any sport.
 
Raoul said:
This is a pretty good read

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jul/18/wada-report-russia-sochi-winter-olympics
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I'm actually reading the WADA report now, which is just damning. In the interest of fairness I think the Russian FA should have been given a chance to respond or explain the allegations here. Not that it would have mattered, I think. The urine container scratches and the electronic correspondence has them dead to rights it seems.

Edit: Report for those who have nothing else to do at work. 100 pages but you can get the gist by skimming through.

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/20160718_ip_report_final2.pdf
 
Raoul said:
UFC has a pretty stringent program that is catching some fairly prominent fighters.
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Cycling caught lots of prominent cyclists, some of the biggest names during the Armstrong era. What needs stressing here is that it doesn't mean that the sport in general is clean. You can take the line of argument that they're doing their jobs in catching the cheats, but that doesn't address the culture of cheating that will inevitably come back to undermine sports and demonstrate that they don't truly have control in consistently keeping sports clean. That's my point.
 
Fener1907 said:
Cycling caught lots of prominent cyclists, some of the biggest names during the Armstrong era. What needs stressing here is that it doesn't mean that the sport in general is clean. You can take the line of argument that they're doing their jobs in catching the cheats, but that doesn't address the culture of cheating that will inevitably come back to undermine sports and demonstrate that they don't truly have control in consistently keeping sports clean. That's my point.
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I don't think the intention is to completely clean up the sport, but more so to create a deterrent that discourages athletes from taking things that are prohibited, which then greatly reduces PED use (between those who get caught and those who are scared of getting caught). UFC is doing a great job in this regard.
 
Raoul said:
I don't think the intention is to completely clean up the sport, but more so to create a deterrent that discourages athletes from taking things that are prohibited, which then greatly reduces PED use (between those who get caught and those who are scared of getting caught). UFC is doing a great job in this regard.
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To have control of the situation is the realistic target, not to completely clean up the sport. I've seen all of this before (deterrents, fear of getting caught) and I've never been impressed by the results, however great the theory sounds. If the UFC has done a 'great' job remains to be seen, because you need a longer period than this agreement has been in place to realistically assess the effectiveness of it all.
 
Fener1907 said:
To have control of the situation is the realistic target, not to completely clean up the sport. I've seen all of this before (deterrents, fear of getting caught) and I've never been impressed by the results, however great the theory sounds. If the UFC has done a 'great' job remains to be seen, because you need a longer period than this agreement has been in place to realistically assess the effectiveness of it all.
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They are doing a fantastic job, if you've watched the UFC during the peak steroid era compared with today, there is a noticeable difference in the appearance and performance of the fighters.
 
Raoul said:
They are doing a fantastic job, if you've watched the UFC during the peak steroid era compared with today, there is a noticeable difference in the appearance and performance of the fighters.
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Appearance and performance are barometers of success, sure. Watch the positives keep rolling in, however, and they don't tell the full story of how the cheating culture can easily still be prevalent.
 
Fener1907 said:
Appearance and performance are barometers of success, sure. Watch the positives keep rolling in, however, and they don't tell the full story of how the cheating culture can easily still be prevalent.
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I really don't know what your point is here. Testing is designed to reduce PED use, and it is. Its that simple. The procedures and methods need to be tightened up and varied from time to time so athletes can't outfox the tests, but that's an ongoing process.
 
Raoul said:
I really don't know what your point is here. Testing is designed to reduce PED use, and it is. Its that simple. The procedures and methods need to be tightened up and varied from time to time so athletes can't outfox the tests, but that's an ongoing process.
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Yes, exactly, it's an 'ongoing process'. It needs to be even better. You clearly think it's good enough, whereas I don't.

Fener1907 said:
Cycling caught lots of prominent cyclists, some of the biggest names during the Armstrong era. What needs stressing here is that it doesn't mean that the sport in general is clean. You can take the line of argument that they're doing their jobs in catching the cheats, but that doesn't address the culture of cheating that will inevitably come back to undermine sports and demonstrate that they don't truly have control in consistently keeping sports clean. That's my point.
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There was my point. If you think it's as simple as testing actually reducing PED use, what can I say. You clearly have a greater belief in sports than I do, especially after I've witnessed over the years how effective testing has proven to be i.e. shit.
 
Fener1907 said:
Yes, exactly, it's an 'ongoing process'. It needs to be even better. You clearly think it's good enough, whereas I don't.



There was my point. If you think it's as simple as testing actually reducing PED use, what can I say. You clearly have a greater belief in sports than I do, especially after I've witnessed over the years how effective testing has proven to be i.e. shit.
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Anyone can say they don't think its good enough. Its really a non-statement since you don't have any anecdotal evidence to support your view. Whereas you can make the statement that USADA has been a qualified success and is making a positive impact on the game by way of the fighters it has caught taking PEDs. Cycling and other sports are irrelevant here, as this specifically is about UFC.
 
Raoul said:
Anyone can say they don't think its good enough. Its really a non-statement since you don't have any anecdotal evidence to support your view. Whereas you can make the statement that USADA has been a qualified success and is making a positive impact on the game by way of the fighters it has caught taking PEDs. Cycling and other sports are irrelevant here, as this specifically is about UFC.
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It's anything but a non-statement precisely because of sports like cycling, and you saying 'nuh-uh, doesn't count, this is UFC' is blatantly ignorant of the core argument. Cyclists, in a sport where testing is incredibly stringent, have been caught left, right and centre, but that still doesn't necessarily mean it's a clean sport. USADA having initial success isn't all that telling about its long-term prospects of keeping the sport credible.
 
Fener1907 said:
It's anything but a non-statement precisely because of sports like cycling, and you saying 'nuh-uh, doesn't count, this is UFC' is blatantly ignorant of the core argument. Cyclists, in a sport where testing is incredibly stringent, have been caught left, right and centre, but that still doesn't necessarily mean it's a clean sport. USADA having initial success isn't all that telling about its long-term prospects of keeping the sport credible.
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You can't clumsily lump together every sport as if the nuances involved are identical. UFC is completely different than cycling which is completely different than track and field etc. Just because cycling has a particular problem doesn't mean its automatically the same with other sports. Also, what more could you possibly want from USADA than to implement a stringent and random testing program and catch fighters so they can be punished. That's exactly why such programs are devised and implemented in the first place. It is doing precisely what it was designed to do.
 
Raoul said:
You can't clumsily lump together every sport as if the nuances involved are identical. UFC is completely different than cycling which is completely different than track and field etc. Just because cycling has a particular problem doesn't mean its automatically the same with other sports. Also, what more could you possibly want from USADA than to implement a stringent and random testing program and catch fighters so they can be punished. That's exactly why such programs are devised and implemented in the first place. It is doing precisely what it was designed to do.
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It's only clumsy is if you're naive enough to completely disregard the one obvious characteristic that all top level athletes share, no matter what the sport - the need to succeed. Yeah, no shit, I know. But that's the thing, because that 'particular problem' you're referring to is far more general than you care to admit, which is that it's extremely difficult succeed at the top and eke out those margins unless you're willing to go that bit further. That's not about 'nuances', that's just how sports and other competitive environments work, and the constant flow of positives and scandals in general are a testament to that, not a testament to how successful anti-doping programs are.

I don't really expect much more from USADA now. Science can only advance so fast. But it's for that same reason that you can't unequivocally declare it a success, because you simply don't know how deep the problem runs. For example, when Ricco was busted back in 2008, he was using a form of EPO thought to be untraceable. It had genuinely been untraceable, and he was ahead of the curve, during which time he'd be given the benefit of the doubt because science had yet to catch up to him. Little did people know during that period. And that's where cycling is relevant, because it's a great example about being cautious and gaining some perspective in how big the battle is. So, ultimately, saying, "it's doing what its designed to do" doesn't fill me with much confidence when there are obvious reasons to remain cynical.
 
Fener1907 said:
It's only clumsy is if you're naive enough to completely disregard the one obvious characteristic that all top level athletes share, no matter what the sport - the need to succeed. Yeah, no shit, I know. But that's the thing, because that 'particular problem' you're referring to is far more general than you care to admit, which is that it's extremely difficult succeed at the top and eke out those margins unless you're willing to go that bit further. That's not about 'nuances', that's just how sports and other competitive environments work, and the constant flow of positives and scandals in general are a testament to that, not a testament to how successful anti-doping programs are.

I don't really expect much more from USADA now. Science can only advance so fast. But it's for that same reason that you can't unequivocally declare it a success, because you simply don't know how deep the problem runs. For example, when Ricco was busted back in 2008, he was using a form of EPO thought to be untraceable. It had genuinely been untraceable, and he was ahead of the curve, during which time he'd be given the benefit of the doubt because science had yet to catch up to him. Little did people know during that period. And that's where cycling is relevant, because it's a great example about being cautious and gaining some perspective in how big the battle is. So, ultimately, saying, "it's doing what its designed to do" doesn't fill me with much confidence when there are obvious reasons to remain cynical.
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Its far to simplistic to make sweeping generalizations that everyone is on PEDs because there is competition. Of course there is competition, but that doesn't prove that everyone is on drugs. All we can ask for is a systematic process that routinely and randomly tests athletes. Its not meant to completely stamp out use, its meant to act as a deterrent by catching and penalizing users and infuse a bit more confidence than what existed before there was any testing.
 
Raoul said:
Its far to simplistic to make sweeping generalizations that everyone is on PEDs because there is competition. Of course there is competition, but that doesn't prove that everyone is on drugs. All we can ask for is a systematic process that routinely and randomly tests athletes. Its not meant to completely stamp out use, its meant to act as a deterrent by catching and penalizing users and infuse a bit more confidence than what existed before there was any testing.
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Of course not, but it doesn't change what I believe to be the cut-throat nature of elite level sports, where the problem is proliferated by the need to seek out those gains, particularly with the ever-increasing rewards at stake. And I think that bit about 'confidence' is where we differ, because while I absolutely do appreciate the programs for weeding out cheats, that's ultimately a point I'm making - it ends up leaving me with very little confidence.
 
People are always going to cheat, but it's right and proper that measures are taken to try to eliminate it as much as possible. It may be a futile pursuit, and you'll not stop/catch everyone, but you'll never stop some people from stealing or murdering or whatever, but there still needs to be a deterrent and punishment.
 
Fener1907 said:
I'm not looking for anything, because the reality is obvious. I followed cycling for long enough to know how effective 'stringent drug testing programs' are. Cycling is a sport that's been chasing down cheats for years, even successfully weeding out cheats that included some of the sport's biggest names. They're still fighting an uphill battle in keeping the sport clean, one that I'm confident they're losing when you look at the bigger picture, as they always have been.

The UFC brought in USADA, which is great. It's a nice statement of intent. When those comprehensive random testing programs actually start to clean sports up, I'll get on board with the enthusiasm. Until then, it's naive to believe in any sport.
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You said a sport like MMA would be scared to look inwards. I'm simply saying it's a bad example as it is one of the sports that is doing the most to try and combat doping. Football and tennis are the sports that are very scared to look inwards and living in denial about doping.
 
justboy68 said:
You said a sport like MMA would be scared to look inwards. I'm simply saying it's a bad example as it is one of the sports that is doing the most to try and combat doping. Football and tennis are the sports that are very scared to look inwards and living in denial about doping.
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Ah, okay, that'll be the same UFC that exempted Lesnar from the required four-month testing period, not disclosing why they'd done so. They can give themselves a big pat on the back for that one. If that's a sport that's taking a 'thorough look within', I guess I need to change my definition of 'thorough'.
 
Fener1907 said:
Ah, okay, that'll be the same UFC that exempted Lesnar from the required four-month testing period, not disclosing why they'd done so. They can give themselves a big pat on the back for that one. If that's a sport that's taking a 'thorough look within', I guess I need to change my definition of 'thorough'.
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Their anti-doping measures saw the best pound for pound fighter banned days before what was supposed to be the biggest event in UFC history. It has also seen Brock Lesnar get caught maybe within a week of his comeback fight?

They're doing an awful lot better than most, especially given how young a sport it is.
 
sullydnl said:
Their anti-doping measures saw the best pound for pound fighter banned days before what was supposed to be the biggest event in UFC history. It has also seen Brock Lesnar get caught maybe within a week of his comeback fight?

They're doing an awful lot better than most, especially given how young a sport it is.
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The point is pretty simple - 'retired' fighters are supposed to undergo a four-month testing period when returning, but the UFC exempted Lesnar and he did so for only a month. Hey, they caught him! After bending their own rules to let him compete in the first place... there's no possible way you're going to spin that result in the UFC's favour.
 
Fener1907 said:
The point is pretty simple - 'retired' fighters are supposed to undergo a four-month testing period when returning, but the UFC exempted Lesnar and he did so for only a month. Hey, they caught him! After bending their own rules to let him compete in the first place... there's no possible way you're going to spin that result in the UFC's favour.
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Your point is completely undercut by the fact that Lesnar was tested and caught. He obviously thought he wouldn't be, but the UFC's embrace of USADA did what it was supposed to. The only problem I see is that they are apparently still giving Brock his entire purse (including PPV points) as opposed to taking it away or giving some of it to Hunt.
 
Fener1907 said:
The point is pretty simple - 'retired' fighters are supposed to undergo a four-month testing period when returning, but the UFC exempted Lesnar and he did so for only a month. Hey, they caught him! After bending their own rules to let him compete in the first place... there's no possible way you're going to spin that result in the UFC's favour.
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Yes, they gave him an exemption because he last fought in 2011 when the anti-doping policies weren't in place and, as such, they decided to treat him in the same way they would a new fighter joining the organisation.

You're focusing on one incident in which the fighter was promptly caught and ignoring the other high profile busts where their policy was an unqualified success. Like I said, the very best pound for pound fighter they have was pulled from their biggest ever event within days of his fight. How many other sports have busted as important an athlete before as important an event?
 
Raoul said:
Your point is completely undercut by the fact that Lesnar was tested and caught. He obviously thought he wouldn't be, but the UFC's embrace of USADA did what it was supposed to. The only problem I see is that they are apparently still giving Brock his entire purse (including PPV points) as opposed to taking it away or giving some of it to Hunt.
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Do you actually believe that? He shouldn't have been competing in the first place! They literally just ignored their own rule to have him compete (and couldn't even give a credible reason)... you know, a rule to designed exactly to prevent happening what actually happened i.e. prevent a returning dirty athlete from needlessly bringing the sport into disrepute. Your point is nonsensical.

sullydnl said:
Yes, they gave him an exemption because he last fought in 2011 when the anti-doping policies weren't in place and, as such, they decided to treat him in the same way they would a new fighter joining the organisation.

You're focusing on one incident in which the fighter was promptly caught and ignoring the other high profile busts where their policy was an unqualified success. Like I said, the very best pound for pound fighter they have was pulled from their biggest ever event within days of his fight. How many other sports have busted as important an athlete before as important an event?
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Eh?! You don't get to be exempt from rules simply because they were introduced since you last participated. If anything, you should be under more skepticism because you competed in a 'dirtier' error. Your logic is just weird.

You're ignoring my entire argument that I went through yesterday. Go back and read it, because I don't fancy repeating myself.
 
Fener1907 said:
Do you actually believe that? He shouldn't have been competing in the first place! They literally just ignored their own rule to have him compete (and couldn't even give a credible reason)... you know, a rule to designed exactly to prevent happening what actually happened i.e. prevent a returning dirty athlete from needlessly bringing the sport into disrepute. Your point is nonsensical.
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Well yes, it's a factual statement. He tested positive for something and now has to go through the process of being penalized for it. The system did exactly what it was supposed to do.
 
Raoul said:
Well yes, it's a factual statement. He tested positive for something and now has to go through the process of being penalized for it. The system did exactly what it was supposed to do.
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He was given an exemption when there clearly weren't credible grounds to do so. The system failed in that respect. You crediting it with succeeding and having to clean up a mistake it shouldn't have made is bizarre.
 
Horizon, just starting on BBC2 UK, is about PEDs. Horizon, for anyone unfamiliar with the program, is a science documentary series rather than an expose type show.
 
Fener1907 said:
He was given an exemption when there clearly weren't credible grounds to do so. The system failed in that respect. You crediting it with succeeding and having to clean up a mistake it shouldn't have made is bizarre.
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He was given an exemption for the standard 4 months of testing for when a fighter who hasn't fought in ages comes out of retirement to fight, but he wasn't given an exemption from testing. He was tested and turned up a positive sample, so you would have to be particularly intoxicated by some cynical agenda to suggest the UFC didn't make reasonable accommodation to test him before the fight. Once again, the system did what it was supposed to do.
 
Cheating is a cultural thing in russia, its systematic in so many areas of their society that it isnt just coincidental and just linked to things like athletics.

Anyone who plays any degree of competitive online gaming for example will testify that the amount of russians who cheat is unreal. Then things like the cutthroat nature in their business communities. Its all just a big mob society.
 
Raoul said:
He was given an exemption for the standard 4 months of testing for when a fighter who hasn't fought in ages comes out of retirement to fight, but he wasn't given an exemption from testing. He was tested and turned up a positive sample, so you would have to be particularly intoxicated by some cynical agenda to suggest the UFC didn't make reasonable accommodation to test him before the fight. Once again, the system did what it was supposed to do.
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Once again, there is a four-month testing period in place for a reason. Why bother having it if we're going to use your logic that he was tested for a month and that's sufficient? Unequivocally declare it a success one minute, outright excuse it when it doesn't follow its own procedures and brings the sport into disrepute. Solid reasoning, that.
 
Fener1907 said:
Once again, there is a four-month testing period in place for a reason. Why bother having it if we're going to use your logic that he was tested for a month and that's sufficient? Unequivocally declare it a success one minute, outright excuse it when it doesn't follow its own procedures and brings the sport into disrepute. Solid reasoning, that.
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The rule for a four month testing period has a provision for waiver for "exceptional circumstances or where the strict application of that rule would be manifestly unfair to an Athlete". It doesn't mean the athlete wont get tested according to normal USADA rules, it just means that the four month provision is waiverable if there are exceptional circumstances, such as a very short window for Lesnar, the UFC, and WWE to negotiate a one off fight to help the UFC 200 fight card after the loss of the McGregor/Diaz fight. Nothing wrong was done - Lesnar was still tested and caught and will have to now deal with the consequences.
 
Oo0AahCantona said:
Cheating is a cultural thing in russia, its systematic in so many areas of their society that it isnt just coincidental and just linked to things like athletics.

Anyone who plays any degree of competitive online gaming for example will testify that the amount of russians who cheat is unreal. Then things like the cutthroat nature in their business communities. Its all just a big mob society.
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I get the impression lying and cheating are part of the social norms there; probably a residual relic of the old KGB days where the concept of truth was obscured by propaganda.
 
Fener1907 said:
Once again, there is a four-month testing period in place for a reason. Why bother having it if we're going to use your logic that he was tested for a month and that's sufficient? Unequivocally declare it a success one minute, outright excuse it when it doesn't follow its own procedures and brings the sport into disrepute. Solid reasoning, that.
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Aye, the four month testing period is in place to stop fighter from tactically retiring/unretiring to avoid tests. That clearly wasn't the case with Lesnar as he retired before the anti-doping measures were actually in place.

They have the "exceptional circumstances" loophole there for a reason. You could argue that a returning fighter who had never signed up to those regulations in the first place is the ideal candidate for such an exemption. He got treated in the same way as new fighters who had never signed up to it either.

Also, USADA can't test fighters until they've signed a contract with the UFC and he didn't sign until early June, so there was a limit to how much he could have been tested. So if they hadn't given him the exemption then they would have been stopping him fighting due to rules he never signed up to, even though other new fighters who have never signed up to those rules would get to fight.

Hardly a totally illogical move.
 
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