I thought it would have been more prudent to leave him for next weeks game (given the international game midweek).
Paul Scholes | 2012/13 Performances
- Thread starter Maajid
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Risky to start him at all, suicidal to put him in a midfield 2.
In the first half he was the worst player on the pitch - he was excellent after we went 2-0 down though. But he wasn't helped by the fact that our attacking players were lack-lustre before the break. When Hernandez started making runs, Scholes had someone to aim at and he improved
Just stop this nonsense. That shows nothing towards how off the pace he was. Carrick had 155 passes but half of them had any purpose. When Scholes has a bad day, it rarely has anything to do with his passing.
Scholes-Carrick is good for keeping possession and weak at stopping opposition runners through the centre. Still think Scholes is better as a sub than a starter.
Why is Fergie still starting Scholesy and Giggsy? Sometimes I ask this to myself. Does he know more about them than us all? Does he overestimated the experience factor? Is he treating them like youngstes and play them early on in the season to keep the regular first teamers fresh? Or even are they at fault for their bad performances and not the whole team's?
He plays them because he loves and he feels extremely loyal towards them.He wants to give playing time as starters as some sort of reward for services rendered for their entire careers, look at it however you want, Giggs and Scholes should play in protective formations (4-3-3 or 4-5-1) and should not start matches anymore
If we have to play with of Scholes or Giggs they need to be combined with a mobile, tough tackling midfielder with solid defensive attributes. Unfortunately, we don't have that player. Carrick doesn't have the mobility to cover the gaping holes left by Scholes or Giggs when they start in a midfield two with him.
That could be Jones ... in a year or two. Alas, not yet.
He didn't have a good games. Gave the ball away quite often and then we get killed on the counter as he doesn't have the legs to get back and track runs any more. Normally he keeps the ball far better than he did in the last game, which helps us control the game. But its situations like one of the villa goals, where he found himself out wide and gave the ball away cheaply only for villa to run through the massive hole in the centre while he struggles to get back and punish us, that cause so many problems.
Scholes still very much has a place in the team, but we need to be careful which teams we start him against, and who we have around him in the team. Playing both him and carrick against teams that can quickly counter attack is dangerous if either are having a bad game. I'd prefer a third body put in with them, or at least someone who has the energy to sprint back quickly and track runs for them.
Scholes still very much has a place in the team, but we need to be careful which teams we start him against, and who we have around him in the team. Playing both him and carrick against teams that can quickly counter attack is dangerous if either are having a bad game. I'd prefer a third body put in with them, or at least someone who has the energy to sprint back quickly and track runs for them.
That's not Fergie's MO, he's supposed to be ruthless with players who can't meet his high expectations.
Of course if he would break that habit for any two players it would be Scholes and Giggs, but I'm not convinced this is the reason.
I was just making the point that Schmeichel once made, that his worst game, his lowest level is better than anyone else's worst game or lowest level. Even when he's considered to have a terrible game by his standard he still leads the starters in pass efficiency and creates a goal.
just looking at the bright side.
I thought his passing was good. We just aren't designed to have both him and Carrick playing in the center, it leaves massive gaps behind the back 4. The ideal model would be the one Juventus are using to suit Pirlo.
I'll stick to what I've been saying, he IS good enough to start games, just not coupled with Carrick only and not away from home against Villa-like side. He's got one year more in his locker than Giggs seems to have. Just wait for his good ninety minutes and this thread will look different. Just like it did after the Everton game. Anyway, we'll never learn.
Play him in a midfield three, or protect him more defensively. You'll only realise what you're missing when wingers (currently out of form) stop getting constant service.
Play him in a midfield three, or protect him more defensively. You'll only realise what you're missing when wingers (currently out of form) stop getting constant service.
I agree, put him in midfield three and enjoy, he can play at least one more season(plus this season). It was ridiculous how many usefull balls he passed to Valencia, and he did nothing.
My main gripe with him was that all those balls to Valencia weren't that useful, because Scholes was off the pace and took an eternity to deliver them. Valencia was basically marked closely by two players whenever he got the ball.
Someone like Rooney excels at setting Valencia up in good positions 1 v 1 much higher up the pitch after drawing teams in centrally, because he takes up smart positions in behind the oppositions midfield. So we don't need to sacrifice Valencia's usefulness in order to play a functioning midfield I.E. one without Scholes.
I recognize that. Point being, I'd be surprised if no one knew that. This is Paul Scholes we're talking about.
I don't think we are using him wisely at all.
We simply can't expect someone of Paul's age to cover as much ground as he is expected now. It's even worse when you consider his playing style. That aggressive part of Paul Scholes is something no one can change and most likely not when he is at fag end of his career. He will always harass an opponent whenever the ball is passed around in front of him though he is unlikely to get anywhere near the ball or win it, he just can't help himself. He is not someone who could manage his stamina and use it wisely. He is just a nutter when it comes to defending. However, there is something fundamentally wrong with our set up if we have to depend on Paul Scholes to win the ball back.
We are missing the huge elephant in the room when we play Carrick and Scholes as the only midfielders. Sometimes Carrick plays like he sees some areas of the pitch like a minefield and can't risk entering it. I was so surprised when he drove forward once against Villa in what seemed like the most purposeful move but never again. Our plan A is good enough when Scholes plays which is to feed the ball out to Valencia and he can do that sitting in his house but the whole thing fails when our plan B is only to find Young on the other wing. We just become too predictable and easy to defend against. We really need someone to attack that elephant in the room just to mix things up. Kagawa and Anderson are the best bets since Rooney doesn't really carry the ball forward these days.
Also people are being overly critical of Scholesy's performance last night. The only reason Valencia looked that bad was because Scholes was picking him out in dangerous position throughout the game. At one point I just felt sorry for Valencia because it was clear he was low on confidence and was getting double teamed too but Scholes was just being an A-hole to him. A couple of good crosses from Valencia and we'll all be singing a totally different tune right now. Despite all that he was the one who put Hernandez through for the first goal.
It'll be perfect if all he had to do is pass the ball and control the tempo of the match without bothering about running a marathon or having to mark someone whom he is never likely to catch up.
We simply can't expect someone of Paul's age to cover as much ground as he is expected now. It's even worse when you consider his playing style. That aggressive part of Paul Scholes is something no one can change and most likely not when he is at fag end of his career. He will always harass an opponent whenever the ball is passed around in front of him though he is unlikely to get anywhere near the ball or win it, he just can't help himself. He is not someone who could manage his stamina and use it wisely. He is just a nutter when it comes to defending. However, there is something fundamentally wrong with our set up if we have to depend on Paul Scholes to win the ball back.
We are missing the huge elephant in the room when we play Carrick and Scholes as the only midfielders. Sometimes Carrick plays like he sees some areas of the pitch like a minefield and can't risk entering it. I was so surprised when he drove forward once against Villa in what seemed like the most purposeful move but never again. Our plan A is good enough when Scholes plays which is to feed the ball out to Valencia and he can do that sitting in his house but the whole thing fails when our plan B is only to find Young on the other wing. We just become too predictable and easy to defend against. We really need someone to attack that elephant in the room just to mix things up. Kagawa and Anderson are the best bets since Rooney doesn't really carry the ball forward these days.
Also people are being overly critical of Scholesy's performance last night. The only reason Valencia looked that bad was because Scholes was picking him out in dangerous position throughout the game. At one point I just felt sorry for Valencia because it was clear he was low on confidence and was getting double teamed too but Scholes was just being an A-hole to him. A couple of good crosses from Valencia and we'll all be singing a totally different tune right now. Despite all that he was the one who put Hernandez through for the first goal.
It'll be perfect if all he had to do is pass the ball and control the tempo of the match without bothering about running a marathon or having to mark someone whom he is never likely to catch up.
Pirlo did some of his best and most damaging work with Gattuso and Ambrosini flanking him, doing the running and general dirty work so that he could dictate games from deep. Scholes (if we're going to use him at all) could be quite damaging too, if Fletcher or Jones was fit, and played with one of Anderson or Cleverley (I'm not sure if both Anderson and Cleverley would work). You could then have any three of RVP, Welbeck, Valencia, Nani, Kagawa, Hernandez and Rooney playing in front of them. Carrick is probably the least suited to playing in that kind of midfield three ironically. That is, unless he plays the Scholes role
The problem is that when Scholes is on the pitch, our wingers need to be on form too because they're pretty much his only outlet nowadays. That hasn't happened this season and therefore he's been a bit pointless.
I don't think there's much of a difference between him now and when he was playing well on his return, it's just that back then he had an in form winger (usually Valencia, sometimes Nani) playing alongside him.
I don't think there's much of a difference between him now and when he was playing well on his return, it's just that back then he had an in form winger (usually Valencia, sometimes Nani) playing alongside him.
Not really, he was couple of times in one on one situations after scholes' passes.
These are few examples:
I know only first one is adressed to valencia, but all 3 gifs show how usefull his diagonals were yesterday. In all 3 situations, our players had time to control the ball, and only one player around them.
Not as a starter for Manchester United, not for me. We have better options now, players that might not ping it as lovely as Scholes but offer more with their all-round games.
Not all the time, but he is still too good sometimes to sit on the bench.
Not really, he was couple of times in one on one situations after scholes' passes.
These are few examples:
I know only first one is adressed to valencia, but all 3 gifs show how usefull his diagonals were yesterday. In all 3 situations, our players had time to control the ball, and only one player around them.
You can almost always trust him to deliver those if players get in the right positions, but it's true that him and Carrick don't serve against everyone... Paul needs to be relieved of the duty to be hurtling back to defend if the opposition break against us. That said, yesterday wasn't his finest outing in any way. I can't remember having seen Scholes misplace that many fairly simple passes in a single half before.
Still, the pass to put Hernandez through for his first was
Not much of an angle on to have any leeway in putting that one over the top for him either, so that redeemed his first half efforts for me <3
Hope Fergie will figure out how we can play him without feeling that he's a liability with his relative lack of mobility.
I disagree, he should be used like Giggs this season, nothing more.
We'll agree to disagree then.
I think this should be his and Giggs last season, they're preventing us from building a new midfield.
Home against a poor low table team he would still arguably be in strongest XI, but that's probably only about half a dozen games a season. The rest of the time. Well, various others have commented on how he could be used. He certainly still has something to offer. In some kind of deep playmaking role in a midfield three containing runners perhaps, or as a bench option to come on against tired opposition.
That is what I want to be seeing.
Like to see him more as the backup for Rooney in that Role. less defensive requirement and focus' on what he's good at. Drawing our players into attacking chances.
I can forsee many humble pies eaten along the road to the title.
I said in the match thread when I saw our starting XI for Villa that I feared us being overrun by youthfulness. In terms of talent there's nobody at Villa you'd pick over Scholes but pace and power count for a lot against Paul these days. He was caught napping twice on Saturday and very lucky to get free kicks both times.
The best matches to use Scholes in are ones like Southampton away where the other side has run themselves ragged and Scholes can come on and just play through the gaps left by their sagging legs. When Scholes is given time and space to pick his passes he can cut apart the opposition like Zatoichi.
He's the kind of player who if you were 0-0 going into extra time in a big knock out tie you'd definitely bring him on cos when the other side are exhausted he would create chance after chance. But he's no longer a starter I feel.
The best matches to use Scholes in are ones like Southampton away where the other side has run themselves ragged and Scholes can come on and just play through the gaps left by their sagging legs. When Scholes is given time and space to pick his passes he can cut apart the opposition like Zatoichi.
He's the kind of player who if you were 0-0 going into extra time in a big knock out tie you'd definitely bring him on cos when the other side are exhausted he would create chance after chance. But he's no longer a starter I feel.
Both he and Giggs can start, but it would need to be as part of a midfield three, and no, Fergie, not as the deepest of the three players, especially not if you're Giggs.
Him and Giggs have started as part of a midfield three a few times and generally it always fails miserably. Do not want.
The alternative is just to not play them against decent opposition, but stick to the guys who at least can do the basics of their job. It's no good being able to land a 80 yard pass on a coin if the rest of your game simply doesn't cut it at all.
In no circumstances should we tinker with our team and formation in order to accommodate Giggs and Scholes anymore.
This.
Wish people would stop comparing him to Giggs. Scholes is still the only player we have who's capable of dictating the tempo of a game and controlling the midfield. He most definitely will and should be starting games for us, just not away from home after a break of three weeks with a bunch of below par players. If our wingers played well we probably would have scored a couple of goals via the flanks and everyone would have been praising Scholes.
It was less than a year ago when he came back and looked a bit rusty and people were questioning the decision. A few weeks later he was running games for us. He was a bit off colour against Villa, but that's perfectly understandable given the long break we gave him. I'm sure we'll see him back to his most effective soon enough.
It was less than a year ago when he came back and looked a bit rusty and people were questioning the decision. A few weeks later he was running games for us. He was a bit off colour against Villa, but that's perfectly understandable given the long break we gave him. I'm sure we'll see him back to his most effective soon enough.
Once again kps, this misses the point entirely. It's as if our defensive limitations in midfield mean zilch when it comes to Scholes. If Scholes starts in midfield, it better be quite balanced otherwise when we come up against teams with pace and energy, we're putting our backline under a lot of pressure.
Forget about the wings. Forget about our attacking players. Look at our midfield and backline and how the two should correspond to make sure both are working in tandem to be more effective defensively. Against teams with pace and energy, do we honestly think Carrick and Scholes in a midfield 2 is going to offer enough protection from midfield? Or does Scholes' attacking qualities override these issues? With Carrick looking less than arsed, it really highlights how this partnership fails to do the basics at times and it's quite disturbing.
Scholes will turn in great performances because he's Scholes. This shouldn't have to come at the expense of our defensive solidity and if it continues to do so, why start him?
Forget about the wings. Forget about our attacking players. Look at our midfield and backline and how the two should correspond to make sure both are working in tandem to be more effective defensively. Against teams with pace and energy, do we honestly think Carrick and Scholes in a midfield 2 is going to offer enough protection from midfield? Or does Scholes' attacking qualities override these issues? With Carrick looking less than arsed, it really highlights how this partnership fails to do the basics at times and it's quite disturbing.
Scholes will turn in great performances because he's Scholes. This shouldn't have to come at the expense of our defensive solidity and if it continues to do so, why start him?
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