[AFC NimbleThumb]

Mct isn’t nearly as good on the ball as Pogba. Nobody said he was. He’s not even as good as Fred. The fact is he gives energy and holds genuine midfield positions. He’s consistent insofar as he’ll do the dirty side of the game or at least attempt to for 90 mins and he’ll give the ball off to our better players. We can’t play the Leicester lineup and expect anything else. It’s too much attacking and standing off. There’s no urgency in our play. Nobody to win it back. One less player pressing and tracking. That balance needs to be struck but with a better baller than McT but with the same workrate. Pogba turned the game tonight but I can totally see why he didn’t start. His last game he looked bored jogging around losing the ball. Much better cameo tonight.

You’ve been addressed in another thread about how he was ran off for Leicestershire 3rd goal on Saturday; then tonight on their 1st goal both Maguire & Shaw we’re covering the cutback because neither of our 2 players who ‘hold genuine midfield positions’ were in a position to help. He also got caught on the 2nd goal.

For all his ‘urgency’, McT is continually nowhere near the danger so I see no reason to start him over Pogba. ‘balance’, ‘pressing’, ‘tracking’ are not things McT provides consistently - it’s again the idea versus the product. You keep referencing Leicester, but where was McT versus Villa & Everton, let alone tonight.

Pogba was pulled tonight because he was poor o. the weekend & has been at club level for a few weeks. He was replaced by McFred who are advertised as a safer pair of hands but for some time now they’ve been horrendous, McT is often niwheee near the dirty work as he’s out of position.

 

[TsuWave]

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Give it Wenger till the end of the season.

 

[La Vecchia Signora]

Give it Wenger till the end of the season.

 

[Mickeza]

On the other hand you have journalists writing bollocks like this…

 

[The United]

If he stars, Ronaldo should be on the bench. As good as they both are, Ole is right that we need legs.

 

[TsuWave]

If he stars, Ronaldo should be on the bench. As good as they both are, Ole is right that we need legs.

we had “legs” and were 2 down by halftime and looked a much better team with Pogba. Ronaldo was on the pitch throughout.

 

[The United]

we had “legs” and were 2 down by halftime and looked a much better team with Pogba. Ronaldo was on the pitch throughout.

Talking about missing the context.

 

[TsuWave]

Talking about missing the context.

contextualise it for me then.

this was your post:

If he stars, Ronaldo should be on the bench. As good as they both are, Ole is right that we need legs.

I merely pointed out that we had the so called legs and got done over

 

[Borys]

I've been saying this for ages, use him as a super sub. He's very good at it, especially when we're pushing.
Not a starter though.

 

[The United]

contextualise it for me then.

this was your post:



I merely pointed out that we had the so called legs and got done over

Do you think the work rate of a team having both Pogba and Ronaldo will be matching work rate of any decent team from the start?

The context is that they looked good while we had the control of the game and Atlanta was flat at the point.

Shocker that talented attacking players will shine in that situation.

Start them against pool or city or oh Leicester and see.

One of the goals was a set piece goal and the come back was started already before Pogba sub and none of the goals were directly involved with him.

I mean if we have to nitpick.

 

[Escobar]

We’ve probably not had one of those since fergie retired. Not consistently anyway. There were numerous occasions last season where the team were poor and Pogba stepped up but generally as a club we tend to be either good or bad collectively. Greenwood has done it a couple of times this season. Other than that you might have to go back to last calendar year for someone different to have stepped up when the team was poor. Certainly no one we have currently tends to play well if the team doesn’t. Maybe a defender but that is obviously going to be true

I disagree. We had Rashy who saved us too often. So did Greenwood. And of course Bruno since he joined.

 

[roonster09]

You’ve been addressed in another thread about how he was ran off for Leicestershire 3rd goal on Saturday; then tonight on their 1st goal both Maguire & Shaw we’re covering the cutback because neither of our 2 players who ‘hold genuine midfield positions’ were in a position to help. He also got caught on the 2nd goal.

For all his ‘urgency’, McT is continually nowhere near the danger so I see no reason to start him over Pogba. ‘balance’, ‘pressing’, ‘tracking’ are not things McT provides consistently - it’s again the idea versus the product. You keep referencing Leicester, but where was McT versus Villa & Everton, let alone tonight.

Pogba was pulled tonight because he was poor o. the weekend & has been at club level for a few weeks. He was replaced by McFred who are advertised as a safer pair of hands but for some time now they’ve been horrendous, McT is often niwheee near the dirty work as he’s out of position.

Ignoring all the McT vs Pogba, McT was in the position to help the defense. Lindelof was pulled wide to LB position and there was a huge space in the middle of the pitch. Pasalic was making the run into the space vacated by Lindelof. McT sensed it and he dropped into CB position.

 

[roonster09]

He had very good game, helped the team to retain possession and passed the ball well.

 

[Bobcat]

Well, i dont know about that. Fernandes was poor because he made a tonne of individual mistakes and was incredibly wasteful and imprecice in his passing, but he was still involved a lot so dont see how thats relevent to Pogba

 

[Cassidy]

Yeah I’m not a fan but he doesn’t vacate the midfield and does compete and close spaces down and play a simple game. Teams need water carriers if their attack isn’t interested in defending or doing the ugly stuff. Pogba is one attacker too much if we want to keep a game tight and play that forward line

Yes he does, and he also hides from the ball

 

[RedStarUnited]

Ignoring all the McT vs Pogba, McT was in the position to help the defense. Lindelof was pulled wide to LB position and there was a huge space in the middle of the pitch. Pasalic was making the run into the space vacated by Lindelof. McT sensed it and he dropped into CB position.

This needs to stop, he is just as bad as Pogba in defending. He is good at looking busy without actually stopping anything.

McT didnt sense the run he saw the space and just went into it. He never onces sees the run from-the scorer until its too late.

 

[roonster09]

This needs to stop, he is just as bad as Pogba in defending. He is good at looking busy without actually stopping anything.

McT didnt sense the run he saw the space and just went into it. He never onces sees the run from-the scorer until its too late.

This needs to stop. People should actually see what happened instead of going with generic "He is all over the place".

It was about one specific incident.

 

[RedStarUnited]

This needs to stop. People should actually see what happened instead of going with generic nonsense.

It was about one specific incident.

I explained how he didnt really help the defence because he did nothing in the end. Yet Im the one that needs to “see what happened”.

 

[roonster09]

I explained how he didnt really help the defence because he did nothing in the end. Yet Im the one that needs to “see what happened”.

Yeah, that's like saying attacker doesn't help in attacking because in the end he didn't score or assist.

He covered the space left by Lindelof, the space where Pasalic was making the run. Then the defense was Lindelof, Shaw, Maguire, McT forming a defensive line. Then Zappacosta made superb cross and Pasalic made run timing it to perfection.

That doesn't mean McT wasn't in position in that play. He did what a CM should be doing, covering the space vacated by other players.

This is the problem with extreme views, if the player is good then they can do no wrong, likewise if the player is not rated they can't do anything good.

 

[Kostov]

Yeah, that's like saying attacker doesn't help in attacking because in the end he didn't score or assist.

He covered the space left by Lindelof, the space where Pasalic was making the run. Then the defense was Lindelof, Shaw, Maguire, McT forming a defensive line. Then Zappacosta made superb cross and Pasalic made run timing it to perfection.

That doesn't mean McT wasn't in position in that play. He did what a CM should be doing, covering the space vacated by other players.

This is the problem with extreme views, if the player is good then they can do no wrong, likewise if the player is not rated they can't do anything good.

He covered the space but with what purpose? He didn't stop/block the runner. What is your point exactly that he was there yet did feck all?

 

[youmeletsfly]

Do you think the work rate of a team having both Pogba and Ronaldo will be matching work rate of any decent team from the start?

The context is that they looked good while we had the control of the game and Atlanta was flat at the point.

Shocker that talented attacking players will shine in that situation.

Start them against pool or city or oh Leicester and see.

One of the goals was a set piece goal and the come back was started already before Pogba sub and none of the goals were directly involved with him.

I mean if we have to nitpick.

You talk about completely missing the point, but you're the one actually missing it.
Having quality players means you lose the ball less frequently, thus, putting in less "effort".

Anyway, effort is kinda overrated. How about our team puts some "effort" in into creating space and making runs when Pogba or Bruno are on the ball, let's see if we still need the "work rate" you're talking about.

It's strange how Madrid won 3 UCL's with Kroos in the middle and somehow we can't play Pogba in a two because he doesn't have the "work rate". How in the feck does he have the "work rate" for France? Why does Ronaldo score each game for Portugal? Why Sancho can go past a player for England but not for United?

Work rate matters if it's applied efficiently and cohesively as a team and let's be honest, we're literally a manager away from that. Take a look at Milner vs Atletico if you want to see absolutely useless work rate.

I wonder how some of you find these issues created by journalists but can't see the real issues. If the whole team is efficient and playing properly, Pogba's so called "work rate issues" will be covered, the same as Rashford lack of intelligence will, AWB's awfulness on the ball, Maguire falling a sleep 3 times a game and so on.

 

[roonster09]

He covered the space but with what purpose? He didn't stop/block the runner. What is your point exactly that he was there yet did feck all?

He stopped the runner, they made one more move with Zapacosta run, which lead to the chance.

Point was, McT shouldn't be in the position to stop the cut back as he was covering the space left by Lindelof. So he wouldn't be in "CM position" to cover cut back.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

On the other hand you have journalists writing bollocks like this…

Pogba was good when we came on - against a team pinned back in their own half, trying to hold on to their lead. His talent shows in these situations, as it does for France who tend to dominate teams.

Pogba's terrible performances occur when games are even and United need to match the work rate of the opposing midfield and he has to play box to box, track his runners, and do basic defending.

I think Pogba is best on the bench and being brought on when the tide of the game suits what he offers.

 

[RUCK4444]

Was great last night, retained possession and helped us maintain attacks.

Play with the same intensity as we did that second half and put an actual DM next to him, this should be Ole’s plan, it would be mine.

 

[Jeppers7]

He covered the space but with what purpose? He didn't stop/block the runner. What is your point exactly that he was there yet did feck all?

As per usual. See Leicester’s third goal Saturday also.

 

[Kostov]

He stopped the runner, they made one more move with Zapacosta run, which lead to the chance.

Point was, McT shouldn't be in the position to stop the cut back as he was covering the space left by Lindelof. So he wouldn't be in "CM position" to cover cut back.

He did track the incoming runner into the box, then the situation changed with our defense deformed and Lindelof out of position, while McT did the sensible thing cover the hole which he was supposed to cover, he also takes a look at Pasalic, seeing where he is, and also falls asleep in the same time leading to the goal. It is very poor from supposedly defensively sound midfielder imo.

 

[roonster09]

He did track the incoming runner into the box, then the situation changed with our defense deformed and Lindelof out of position, while McT did the sensible thing cover the hole which he was supposed to cover, he also takes a look at Pasalic, seeing where he is, and also falls asleep in the same time leading to the goal. It is very poor from supposedly defensively sound midfielder imo.

Yeah you repeated what I said. McT was in correct position to cover the run initially. So "McT should have been in position to cover the cutback" was wrong and that was the point I made. McT shouldn't be in position cover cut back, he should be in the position to cover Lindelof.

My post was in reply to this point.

then tonight on their 1st goal both Maguire & Shaw we’re covering the cutback because neither of our 2 players who ‘hold genuine midfield positions’ were in a position to help

Also not every goal is a mistake (I mean it is if we want to credit every goal as a mistake to defender), the goal was very well worked with Zapacosta's good run, superb cross and well timed run from Pasalic. It looked perfectly worked goal.

If we want to tag this goal on a defender then Shaw and McT should be getting the blame.

 

[RedorDead21]

we had “legs” and were 2 down by halftime and looked a much better team with Pogba. Ronaldo was on the pitch throughout.

but plenty of times (most times) we’ve looked bang average when they both play?

 

[Jeppers7]

but plenty of times (most times) we’ve looked bang average when they both play?

We look bang average most games

 

[Kostov]

Yeah you repeated what I said. McT was in correct position to cover the run initially. So "McT should have been in position to cover the cutback" was wrong and that was the point I made. McT shouldn't be in position cover cut back, he should be in the position to cover Lindelof.

My post was in reply to this point.

Okey apologies, that post might be true about Fred not McT you are right.

Also not every goal is a mistake (I mean it is if we want to credit every goal as a mistake to defender), the goal was very well worked with Zapacosta's good run, superb cross and well timed run from Pasalic. It looked perfectly worked goal.

If we want to tag this goal on a defender then Shaw and McT should be getting the blame.

Yes not every goal is a mistake, but that first goal was a fecking cluster feck. Stupid foul give away by Fred (we gave away lots of stupid fouls imo), then he doesn't bother to hold on the ball or block them from taking it early, then you have Lindelof and his passive no duel defending, not even trying to challenge the ball, then Maguire having no clue what the feck he was doing, failing to cut the ball back, and on top of that you have McT.

 

[roonster09]

Okey apologies, that post might be true about Fred not McT you are right.


Yes not every goal is a mistake, but that first goal was a fecking cluster feck. Stupid foul give away by Fred (we gave away lots of stupid fouls imo), then he doesn't bother to hold on the ball or block them from taking it early, then you have Lindelof and his passive no duel defending, not even trying to challenge the ball, then Maguire having no clue what the feck he was doing, failing to cut the ball back, and on top of that you have McT.

Yeah, as a team it was poor response from such a non threatening position, all because of one simple run by zapacosta.

Not sure where Shaw was when the initial pass was played, looked like he was too late to react and also this season many goals are created from his side. I haven't checked all the goals again but it feels that way.

 

[Kostov]

Yeah, as a team it was poor response from such a non threatening position, all because of one simple run by zapacosta.

Not sure where Shaw was when the initial pass was played, looked like he was too late to react and also this season many goals are created from his side. I haven't checked all the goals again but it feels that way.

I think so, yes. Also check the second goal last night, Maguire will take the brunt, but Shaw as absolutely more at fault, he fail to keep up with Demiral, then pushes McT all to lead up to failing to clear the ball himself. He has been very bad at times this season, between him and Maguire it's like having a competition who commits a more stupid mistake, and it affect the defense because they are two of our most important players.

 

[The United]

You talk about completely missing the point, but you're the one actually missing it.
Having quality players means you lose the ball less frequently, thus, putting in less "effort".

Anyway, effort is kinda overrated. How about our team puts some "effort" in into creating space and making runs when Pogba or Bruno are on the ball, let's see if we still need the "work rate" you're talking about.

It's strange how Madrid won 3 UCL's with Kroos in the middle and somehow we can't play Pogba in a two because he doesn't have the "work rate". How in the feck does he have the "work rate" for France? Why does Ronaldo score each game for Portugal? Why Sancho can go past a player for England but not for United?

Work rate matters if it's applied efficiently and cohesively as a team and let's be honest, we're literally a manager away from that. Take a look at Milner vs Atletico if you want to see absolutely useless work rate.

I wonder how some of you find these issues created by journalists but can't see the real issues. If the whole team is efficient and playing properly, Pogba's so called "work rate issues" will be covered, the same as Rashford lack of intelligence will, AWB's awfulness on the ball, Maguire falling a sleep 3 times a game and so on.

I mean do you watch our games regularly?

Quality players means we lose the ball less.

The opposite happened with those two. Not that I am saying they are bad. Their tasks involve with creating chances that will make them lose the ball.

The issue is that neither of them are reliable to defend as a team. I picked Pogba here because this is his thread and he plays a lot closer to the defense. And, I really do not need to give you examples of those, do I?

Who cares about their national teams? It does not work at United.

 

[TsuWave]

Do you think the work rate of a team having both Pogba and Ronaldo will be matching work rate of any decent team from the start?

The context is that they looked good while we had the control of the game and Atlanta was flat at the point.

Shocker that talented attacking players will shine in that situation.

Start them against pool or city or oh Leicester and see.

One of the goals was a set piece goal and the come back was started already before Pogba sub and none of the goals were directly involved with him.

I mean if we have to nitpick.

Did you just gloss over the fact Atalanta was running through us while we had the so called “legs” and Pogba wasn’t on?

Ronaldo probably worked the hardest out of any players. He’s capable of it as shown. That’s correlated to Pogba being on or off. So yeah, I do think a team with both can work. It worked yesterday.

Not being directly involved in goals doesn’t translate to not improving us, which he did.

 

[TsuWave]

but plenty of times (most times) we’ve looked bang average when they both play?

we have looked bang average for 3 years. Before Ronaldo was here. With a combination of Mcfred. Whatever you list. We have looked bang average then. Why are we trying to turn it or correlate it to a Pogba-Ronaldo thing?

I mean, Ronaldo has 6 in 8 and Pogba is our assist leader in the league. What are we really talking about? If you’re going to be bang average at least be so with productive players

 

[The United]

Did you just gloss over the fact Atalanta was running through us while we had the so called “legs” and Pogba wasn’t on?

Ronaldo probably worked the hardest out of any players. He’s capable of it as shown. That’s correlated to Pogba being on or off. So yeah, I do think a team with both can work. It worked yesterday.

Not being directly involved in goals doesn’t translate to not improving us, which he did.

Needing legs and those legs actually doing the job is two different things. Macfred is more reliable in that then, a Pogba with someone else in big games.

And, Atlanta didn't run thru as like Leicester did.

 

[TsuWave]

Needing legs and those legs actually doing the job is two different things.

And, Atlanta didn't run thru as like Leicester did.

So are you conceding there’s no substantial difference between the so called “legs” and Pogba in terms of defensive net positives? At the very least Pogba makes us a better team moving the ball and going forward

We were 0-2 down by halftime with Atalanta having plenty more chances.

Against Leicester we conceded 3 in the last 15. 2 of which when chasing the game.
Thought you liked “context”?

I’d also argue Leicester > Atalanta.

 

[charlenefan]

 

[mancan92]

Was fantastic when he came on.