He has been one of our worst as far as I'm concerned.
Flashes of brilliance but in general its deflating.
I blame the initial Hype. He wasnt and isnt what he was hyped as.
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He has been one of our worst as far as I'm concerned.
Flashes of brilliance but in general its deflating.
I blame the initial Hype. He wasnt and isnt what he was hyped as.
You don’t actually address the point @He'sRaldo makes though; our best periods post Fergie have featured him.
Now your point as to whether he was/is worthy of ‘the hype’ might be valid but your concern about him being ‘one of our worst’ doesn’t correlate with the fact his highs have been as big as his lows.
Once he leaves it’ll be interesting to see what we do with the midfield but bar Bruno we need multiple additions.
It was only natural that we expected him to step up and lead us to glory. It's like a typical situation at work when you promote a manager and he simply fails to deliver. We just need to decide what to do with him instead of wishful thinking that he'll become a great deep lying playmaker. He won't, at least in the premier league.
Fair enough but I'm not getting into debates about how he performs in our best periods. He's a quality player when he wants to be but I dont think he has that drive deep down. We can all look good at some point. It's what our so called leaders do when the chips are down is important. Pogba vanishes. That's enough for me.
He should leave as soon as possible and good luck to him. It didnt work out for him here.
Thanks for highlighting how I’ve made my point about substandard and zero top level DM’s in this team and also how I’ve clearly stated it’s also on Pogba to take his own share of the responsibility (which I’ve said many times.)Let's do that together then:
Firstly, you make it look like he's a world beater whenever he plays for France. I watched last two performances and he was decent at best, without doing much of note. Last game Kante didn't play anyway. If McTominay played for France he would look better too.
if you think I got angry basing on my posts, you must be new to the Internet!
No, it's YOU who shouts "Pogba will never fulfill his potential playing with those shite players we have!". It's literally screaming from your posts, and it's simply unfair to midfielders (who you call "mediocre","makeshift" and "substandard") who are clearly performing much better than Pogba this season, even though Paul is much more talented.
Once again I ask, why can't Pogba do that? Clearly he is an attacking midfielder like Bruno, so he should shine with that hard-working midfield behind him, no?
That's debatable. I disagree because I rate our midfield in Fred - McTominay and you clearly don't. Sure, it would be nice to have a proper DM, but since we're doing pretty good defensively since Pogba was dropped, I'd rather spend money for an attacker.
I think you will find 95% of posters will agree with my stance that we won’t win anything or substantially improve with Fred and McTominay playing in tandem as a midfield two.
They are being played together as they make up for one another’s limited abilities (AND FOR THE FACT WE HAVE NO TOP DM!) we would still hugely improve with one top top level DM.
You could potentially then get away with playing Pogba as that top level DM would makeup for his limitations defensively.
Round and round we go. It’s not even like I’m here saying ‘Pogba must play’ - as I’ve said numerous times it’s just a balanced argument as to why he’s failed here other than your absolute nonsense that he’s just ‘a shite player.’
You would rather Fred and McTominay play for the foreseeable future and hope Bruno can drag us through games singehandedly with no other creative force other than himself (you’ve said so yourself) that’s enough for me to end the conversation here. Good luck with that.
That's not true though, in modern football you can't have midfielders who don't do defensive work. Players like ozil have died out.
Look at Liverpool, no top level DM. Hard working midfielders as a unit generally work better.
We might get away or not, I don't really care at this point as we are not buying top level DM anytime soon. We're stuck with what we have for this season, whether we like it or not.
I'd rather play Fred and McTominay because it's working quite well so far. I could make a case we've lost more points because of Pogba this season than those two but it's probably because we have not paired Paul with top level DM.
Anyway, I don't really rate Pogba in midfield, and I think Ole thinks the same, so will be quite interesting how he handles him from now on. Personally I'd play him on Saturday and rest Bruno. He's a pure attacking midfielder and should be free of any defensive duties. He's been tried in deep midfielder role because he could make a great playmaker with his passing range and big frame, but he just doesn't have that midfielder brain. I couldn't care less where he plays for France, they could possibly replace all players starting last game and still remain on the same level. They don't seem to have a particular style, just a bunch of fantastic footballers.
For the record, I don't rate any of Fred and McTominay as individuals but I think them as a tandem is still underrated and make us very balanced in midfield. This is a good base to build a team. Pogba is the contrary so far this season, and it's on him to improve. He has the talent to make it back to first XI, I'm just not sure he's got much else.
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I think currently we have to play Fred and McTominay and I don't have anything against either of them, however it's a result of the issue I'm getting at, i.e. we don't have an elite (or even decent) defensive midfielder. In fact if you take an ageing Matic out of this side the only other player you could call a proper defensive midfielder is James Garner. We are stacked with number 8's and 10's, players who are then shoehorned into a DM role.
I just don't think that we will get back to where we want to be with both of Fred and McTominay as starting 11 players.
I agree Pogba's performances deserve a spot on the bench, I'd like to see him rotate with Bruno and perhaps get a chance at the no 10 when Bruno needs resting, he's not been played there nearly enough in his time here (not at the expense of Bruno now that we have him here, but prior to his arrival.)
I think it's a matter of time before Pogba leaves now, I just find it frustrating that a key position we need to strengthen (DM) is being neglected when the whole team would benefit from that signing and we will probably never know how that signing might have improved the fate of Pogba here. Imo it was an obvious position to strengthen and Matic was not the answer, he was a Mourinho stop gap signing and here we are pushing 4 years later and he's the only DM we have.
Well it would certainly be nice to have a top DM of course, but I don't think that is really the most pressing manner. We look quite good defensively, just need to be more adventurous going forward. And it would be nice to have at least one in-form striker.
Neither of Fred and McTominay is really a Defensive Midfielder, the are both Box to Box. The reason why I think right winger is a priority is because we're quite good through the middle, it's just nothing is happening on the right. It's criminal we play Mata there, but it's for another discussion.
Yeah I'm all for a RW, I was desperate for Sancho in the transfer window, I just think a proper DM provides proper cover and a base for the forwards to push up, rather than having two somewhat limited players both on the pitch at the same time. It's just a case of having proper players in proper positions and removing the half-measures.
Shame Matic wasn't 5 years younger when we got him.
I just dont buy this notion that a player can only be good if he has another great player next to him whatever the position. Great players would still do their thing but the team success would be missing.
Take Grealish. He carried Villa last year. He is doing better now with better players.
What if they had Pogba last year instead of Grealish? Would the talk still be that yes Pogba can be good but needs to be surrounded by better players? If youre good, youre good.
Sometimes players excel at relegation level teams yet we are debating how to put the perfect team around Pogba which just really tells you he's a luxury player.
He looks okay with Pirlo and Vidal or in that stacked France team. Well most players would.
Take Grealish. He carried Villa last year. He is doing better now with better players.
What if they had Pogba last year instead of Grealish? Would the talk still be that yes Pogba can be good but needs to be surrounded by better players? If youre good, youre good.
Sometimes players excel at relegation level teams yet we are debating how to put the perfect team around Pogba which just really tells you he's a luxury player.
He looks okay with Pirlo and Vidal or in that stacked France team. Well most players would.
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Let's buy a high quality DM who is capable of controlling the midfield alone so we can play DM + Bruno in a 2 man midfield. What's that you say? we should play Pogba instead of Bruno? then sell Bruno to accomodate Pogba. If when all has been done and he's still shite, appoint him as a player-manager so he can bring all the French NT players to ManUnited. If it's still not working? change the club's name and crest because they bring bad luck.
Yes good players around you can make you look a better player, but it shoudn't take away from the fact that you should always give 110% no matter who the players around you.
He's looked good at United before, this is just recency bias.
People talk like he's NEVER had a good game for United it's just ludicrous. He's had a bad year with his injuries and COVID and currently struggling to hit his best form that's it. Soon enough he'll either recover his form and be back to his best.
We know and HE knows this isn't a good period for him, but all players go through dips. This is the first proper one he's had in his career.
Looked good is not the same as world class. We are talking about Pogba as if he is supposed to be Ronaldo or Messi for us. He isnt.
Even at his best here it wasnt good enough.
In his 5 seasons here he's mostly been disappointing, hard to fit in, hard to figure out.
In his 5 seasons here, never once has he been our player of the year. Bruno has already surpassed Pogba in terms of his impact on the team by a mile.
He has been a massive failure for us and its time to move on. We had Ronaldo, sold him, were fine after that so yeah if we sell Pogba it will make no difference. Cuz largely he hasnt been a difference maker for us at all.
Nobody has ever said that or expected that - and if you did then there is your issue straight away.
Just simply not true. A season of being top scorer and top assister is hardly being a failure is it? you're just being ridiculous i'm afraid.
Go lightly on him as most of us seem to have an issue then. I have to say I was expecting bigger things when we signed Pogba. Yes, I really thought that he would be the one to push us on for more titles and trophies. He doesn't even give you 80% of what he can give, and so we can't all be wrong.
Ok how about this. Hes not Messi or Ronaldo but he is not Scholes/Viera/Lampard...or Bruno either.
So what is that great level we are supposed to be seeing?
He's had his moments but he's always been inconsistent and sure he scored some goals when he was our penalty taker but again largely disappointing and sample size is 5 years now.
Pogba's sub-par performances is on Pogba. Not because of any "substandard DM" players. Fred is a very capable ball winner, Matic is still a good holding midfielder and Bruno's workrate even in the 10 is excellent. Pogba can be partnered with energetic ball winners (Fred), composed playmakers (Matic) and even creative midfielders (Bruno) and still look poor. There has to come a point where you stop resting the majority of your case on his peers and start looking at him.
Also I'm sick and tired of people pointing to International games to draw comparisons to club consistency. It's such a primitive approach to looking at the game. Even if you looked at that, he's not suddenly amazing for France. He's giving standard expected performances, that aren't even long enough to judge consistency from, because they are fecking international friendlies.
I'm not claiming that he's been our best player, he has been inconsistent and thats the main issue - but to state that he's been a complete failure is just a bit silly. The last year has clouded many peoples short memories but against Leipzig he proved he's still got it, we just need to get that more regularly.
Man, of course he's been a failure. You think somewhere else it would be tolerated?
Remember when Modric joined Madrid, wasnt that great the first few months and the media there ripped him to shreds, called him their worst signing etc? Now yeah those are standards. Sink or swim.
How long you think they would have tolerated Pogba especially as the most expensive signing ever at the time?
I'm not sure you know the meaning of failure.
There's a difference between not reaching your expectations and being an utter flop.
How exactly can somebody be a failure if they've been your top goal scorer and assister? in 4 of his 5 seasons he's been statistically consistently good and only really bettered by KDB.
This year has been a bad one for him and we can all agree on that, but saying he's a failure is just shortsighted nonsense tbh.
Shortsighted nonsense to call him a failure?
Alright, lets go back to when we signed him and made him worlds most expensive signing.
If someone told you then that 5 yrs later we would have finished 6th, then 2nd, then 6th again, then 3rd and now this season is going poorly too, wouldnt you consider that to be a horrible projection, a failure?
Also wouldnt it be reasonable to expect him to have a better than Fred or McTominay level impact? Heck he should be doing much better than Bruno too given his reputation.
Also heck why wouldnt I expect Ronaldo level impact for the price of Ronaldo?
So yes he has absolutely been a failure and the only way not to acknowledge that is by moving the goal posts and constantly lowering our standards.
Those that offer excuses for him are somehow okay with him going from the worlds most expensive signing to a player we just might afford to play if we have a perfect team around him but otherwise we cant play him because we have too many holes in our team if he plays and the only way to salvage that is to have a perfect team around him.
Of course he's been a failure. A massive one.
We expected to compete against Madrid and Barcelona but standards have dropped below Sevilla.
I agree we could use one proper DM, but even if it happens (like I said before, this is distant future) it might not be enough for Pogba to fulfill his potential. Last two games Pogba was playing in midfield with Rabiot and Kante (vs Portugal) or Sissoko (vs Sweden). He was ok and that's it, he looks better because France is a great team.
IMO the biggest difference is that you rarely see intense pressing in International Games when compared to club football, one thing I noticed recently. So yeah Pogba looks better, but I have my doubts whether that can be "translated" for playing in EPL or any top league in general where he's not playing for far superior team (Juve/France).
Yeah that's my point of view also. He simply hasn't made that step up from being a cog in well oiled machine to key player pulling team to glory. It's frustrating but it happens, constant manager changes and injuries might've played a part. However, at some point you have to make a decision whether it still makes sense to put money on him realizing his potential here.
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Yeah because it's all his fault
Yet again this is your issue clearly. Why judge anybody on price? do you expect Maguire to be giving Messi and Ronaldo performances?
Blame the management for not assembling a good enough squad to challenge, not Pogba. If he's so bad as you say but still managed to be our best player statistically, how bad is everybody else?!
Let's face it you don't know much about football, you expected us to be signing somebody with a big reputation and got upset when he wasn't as good as you thought. More fool you.
The real big money failures are Angel Di Maria and Lukaku. Amazing how they suddenly became great players again after leaving United. Perhaps maybe the issue is... at United?
Yeah because it's all his fault
Yet again this is your issue clearly. Why judge anybody on price? do you expect Maguire to be giving Messi and Ronaldo performances?
Blame the management for not assembling a good enough squad to challenge, not Pogba. If he's so bad as you say but still managed to be our best player statistically, how bad is everybody else?!
Let's face it you don't know much about football, you expected us to be signing somebody with a big reputation and got upset when he wasn't as good as you thought. More fool you.
The real big money failures are Angel Di Maria and Lukaku. Amazing how they suddenly became great players again after leaving United. Perhaps maybe the issue is... at United?
Okay so its never his fault. It was Mourinho, Ole, the board, other players. Never him.
Why arent we having the same discussion about Bruno? Cuz he delivers. He is who we thought Pogba would be. Without Bruno last season we finish what like 7th?
And he was never our best player hence why he never won the player of the year award yet freaking Luke Shaw did. Hererra did. Bruno already did.
What was I supposed to expect when we signed Pogba then? You are being a strawman here.
Ok not Ronaldo. Scholes? I would have been happy with that. Bruno? Would have been happy with that too.
What we got is someone that was called a virus by the previous manager and its proving more and more to be true and someone who is dropped by the current manager for Scott McTominay. Yet its everyone else's fault.
I don't see what is your point. Obviously he's not the only one to blame for the team results, but clearly he is not good enough to play in first XI for United currently, losing his starting spot to far interior players (talent-wise) in midfield and far superior player in attack (Bruno).Yeah because it's all his fault
Yet again this is your issue clearly. Why judge anybody on price? do you expect Maguire to be giving Messi and Ronaldo performances?
Blame the management for not assembling a good enough squad to challenge, not Pogba. If he's so bad as you say but still managed to be our best player statistically, how bad is everybody else?!
Let's face it you don't know much about football, you expected us to be signing somebody with a big reputation and got upset when he wasn't as good as you thought. More fool you.
The real big money failures are Angel Di Maria and Lukaku. Amazing how they suddenly became great players again after leaving United. Perhaps maybe the issue is... at United?
This is Paul Pogba 2020/21 Performances thread, and he's been truly appealing this season in every games he's started, and the stats confirm he's our worst midfielder so far.
Regarding your point that Pogba's been our best player statistically - this is why I don't consider him a massive failure. He's been OK/good in previous seasons, not what I expected but hardly a failure. But since we've signed Bruno he's really not a significant figure for us, and regressing IMO.
Read his posts, my point is that not 1 player is responsible for where the team currently stands.
He is talking like because we signed Pogba for £89m suddenly he is expecting us to be challenging Barca and Real
what a load of nonsense. Nobody has that impact aside from Messi on his best day.I’m not being funny, but what exactly is Bruno producing? Where are we in the league? He’s incredibly inconsistent through most matches, and he’s equally had some stinkers but it doesn’t get highlighted in the media. His thread, surprisingly is similar to this thread with people moaning about his inconsistency and how his constant turning over of possession hurts us. His last two games for Portugal saw him hauled off after 60 mins and at half time in important games. So it’s not like he’s universally recognised. In fact I think a lot of posters here are just glad he isn’t Pogba.
So my final argument why Pogba has been a failure for us (which btw is an absolute consensus among non United fans) is this.
We had two different managers with different styles, philosophies, personalities, different generation etc...
And they both scorched the earth trying to accomodate Pogba, every formation, combination etc.
One ended up calling him a virus, the other completely dropped him.
And when they both had their job on the line and they needed results to cling onto their job, what do they decide? Meh its not worth it. You desperately need results, better not play Pogba. When going gets tough, better not play Pogba.
Basically both decided its just not worth it.
Mourinho was more ruthless, he straight up called him a virus, Ole a super nice guy decided meh its just not worth it, if he wants to survive at the job better not play Pogba.
We had two different managers with different styles, philosophies, personalities, different generation etc...
And they both scorched the earth trying to accomodate Pogba, every formation, combination etc.
One ended up calling him a virus, the other completely dropped him.
And when they both had their job on the line and they needed results to cling onto their job, what do they decide? Meh its not worth it. You desperately need results, better not play Pogba. When going gets tough, better not play Pogba.
Basically both decided its just not worth it.
Mourinho was more ruthless, he straight up called him a virus, Ole a super nice guy decided meh its just not worth it, if he wants to survive at the job better not play Pogba.
Fault for what? what are you even trying to blame here?
You said he is failure across his whole United career which isn't true, I've agreed he's had a bad last year. You just seem overly emotional and desperate to prove Pogba is rubbish
it's a bit unhealthy.Mourinho called him a Virus because he wanted to publically destroy him so he was easier to get rid of - he played a power move and it failed.
He quite clearly ISN'T a virus as his team mates all love him, and ex team mates at Juve and for France.
We can all agree that Pogba's had a bad year and needs to improve, that's it.
Now you can't be serious. 6 goals + 5 assists in 11 games seems good enough don't you think?
Bruno and Pogba are not similar at all, because the former is quite inconsistent, but the latter so far this season has been consistently poor.
I’ll point you to the Newcastle game in Jose’s last season....where rumours were strong that it was his last game in charge and would be sacked regardless of result. Go look at the teamsheet and rewatch the match.
As for Ole, all we know at this point is the start to this season has been a mess, Pogba has been a disaster so far this season, however it’s not that difficult to see what might be causing the problem. I’d say Ole has picked Pogba in every really big game he’s had him available for. If you’re that convinced he’s dropped Pogba for good then why are you bothered what anyone else thinks?
How many penalties? One goal was a cross. Also not sure on assists this season but I know last season a lot of his assists were not high in XG they were just a pass out wide that Martial ended up smashing a worldie in for example.
I’m fine with Bruno but people talking like he’s some god like performer. It’s ridiculous he’s been very hit and miss since we returned after lockdown. Hopefully he returns to form and consistency also because this season has been a wreck from a team point of view and nobody’s individual stats can mask that, Bruno is equally responsible in the position he plays to not lose the ball 30/40% of the time he gets it. No matter if it leads to him getting good stats but the team get poor results.
As for Pogba, we’ve played six league games so far, he was out for nearly a year, no pre season and Covid....but yes he’s been a train wreck so far. I doubt that will continue for the whole season but if I’m wrong I’ll hold my hands up.
Oh its not like Im cheering for a certain outcome. I wanted Pogba to succeed, he didnt, its what it is.
I think all sides know at this point that the divorce is inevitable. Pogba knows it, the board knows it, Ole knows it, fans know it. And all sides just want it to be over with. So thats the only possible outcome at this point, I just hope we can sell him for good price or get something good in return.
Im not a Pogba hater, I sided with him over Mourinho, even though I see now that I was wrong but yeah after 5 years enough is enough.
I just want the team to succeed. If thats with Pogba I would be super happy but yeah it most likely isnt and the sooner we get rid of him the better. For all intents and purposes he is only our player on paper now, hes on the bench, there are no expecations anymore and thats a good thing. Its a way forward. He can help out as a super sub for as long as hes still here.
I’ve said Pogba is responsible for his own performance.
Seeing as you think we are stocked on DM’s, why then when we try any other combination of players that aren’t Fred and McTominay and it doesn’t work, as we have, who do you blame that on when you can’t blame Pogba?
We have no decent DM’s which results in us having to play Fred and McTominay regardless of Pogba!
When Matic is off it he’s a mile worse than Pogba, see the Tottenham game and others where he has a complete mare. Which is no doubt why Ole doesn’t try partnering him with either of Fred/McTominay and prefers to play those together to make up for his lack of legs.
We need a DM.
The issue is as usual all our players can only do 1 thing well.
Mctominay can run and tackle but can't pass.
Fred can run tackle and sometimes pass but can't shoot
Pogba can pass, shoot, and sometimes tackle but not the best runner
Matic can sometimes do all of it, but most the time none of them.
Yeah, he's inconsistent, and loses possession a lot. Which is typical for attacking midfielder. I don't remember us losing a goal with his mistake so not sure how is that so important, at least since we've sealed the midfield with Fred and McTominay (4 goals lost in 6 games I remind you, including two own goals and a penalty). You can't deny he delivers though, penalties included or not.
Pogba cost us a penalty against Arsenal and his best contribution so far this season was a deflected free kick, if we want to compare them somehow. But I don't think it makes sense to do it, there are light years between them.
Pogba has been dire this season, if it continues the same way fair enough.
It seems to matter anytime Pogba loses the ball but not Bruno? Or it’s overlooked when Bruno gives away a stupid penalty etc. This Bruno must be some player if he’s light years better than a fit and on form Pogba. He isn’t the one I watch play for us though but then I think both are very good players. Probably neither could be called world class at present.
It does matter, but firstly, Bruno delivers as opposed to Pogba, and secondly, when was the last time we've lost a game due to Bruno doing something stupid? Not saying he's a footballing god, but you're trying to manipulate and bring discussion down to "yeah but Bruno gives ball away too". When was the last time Bruno caused a penalty? Pogba does stupid fouls around our box all the time.
There are light years between current Bruno and Pogba, to the point the latter is losing his starting place with Fred and McTominay. There's been a while since we've seen "fit and on form Pogba" so not sure how's that important. He's very talented player, but very good he is not (currently). I don't know if it's down to poor fitness, post-covid, or that he wants to move to Madrid, and frankly I don't care that much at this point as he's not crucial figure any more.
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