[RooneyLegend]

We're here to talk football, so if someone wants to take it further and asks for stats, match by match breakdowns then so be it. Lets get back on topic, the man is a baller and needs to be kept at all costs. He destroyed the Spurs midfield with his change of his positioning at half time. Give the agent some fake bonus and look to sort the rest of the team out. He's a great player and we don't have many of those atm.

 

[Beachryan]

I love Pogba, think we'd be mad to sell him, think we'll miss him and genuinely hope the lack of big suitors with budget will mean he stays with us for 5 more seasons.

But Pogmentary? The f*ckers dead to me.

 

[OleBoiii]

Ok, first off: whoever came up with the name 'The Pogmentary' needs to be fired. Firstly, for coming up with that shite name. Secondly, for not realizing that 'The Pogumentary' has a much better ring to it. 'Pogmentary' sounds like it comes from the word 'commentary'. It's not a podcast(or POGcast, HEHEHEH), for feck's sake.

Does Pogba have an interesting childhood? If not, then it's going to be a shite documentary.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Probably the most marketable player on the planet right now.

 

[Gasolin]

He’s good but he’s not that good

I think he is and Ole has been trying. I put a link before about how Pogba is being used with Ole and how they have perfected his role. He is key to change the game against big oppositions.

 

[Jeppers7]

Empirical measures to assess the performance of a midfielder? I haven’t seen anything that comes remotely close to providing an empirical assessment of a player like Pogba, or Keane, Zidane or the various others he’s compared to.

There is a minority of footy fans that love these new footy stat acronyms, but from what I can tell, the vast majority would agree that stats don’t tell you how good someone like Keane is / was. Trophies have been taken as the best proxy but recognised for its obvious limitations.

If people believe most discussions about footy attempt to be empirical, I’ll leave them to that. It’s certainly not the kind of conversations I’d be having with mates in a pub. That’s not what most people enjoy about footy discussions, in my experience. So when someone attempted to push and prod someone into taking that position, I thought it worth pointing out, it’s not evasive to not want to go down that route. For most people it isn’t enjoyable, it has nothing to do with how valid or well formed their opinion is.

No need to take the tangent any further. I’ll leave the circular conversations in this thread to everyone else.

So when someone quotes moments in games and recent performances themselves, when joining a debate to give a counter argument.....then it’s condescending to ask them to flesh that out a little more to justify the overall opinion they chose to give?

That’s some tangent you’ve gone off on.

 

[Ali Dia]

I think he is and Ole has been trying. I put a link before about how Pogba is being used with Ole and how they have perfected his role. He is key to change the game against big oppositions.

I was replying to this comment

“His best attribute is that he can ping a ball from 50 years to create big chances from our own half”

You’re the 3rd person to jump in thinking I’m saying he’s good but he’s not great...

 

[Brwned]

So when someone quotes moments in games and recent performances themselves, when joining a debate to give a counter argument.....then it’s condescending to ask them to flesh that out a little more to justify the overall opinion they chose to give?

That’s some tangent you’ve gone off on.

Yes, I consider this view - that he chose not to defend his opinion because he cannot, rather than because he really doesn’t care enough to do so, as he has repeatedly said - to be condescending. Maybe you have a better word for it. In general, you care more about this than other people. That doesn’t mean you are doing it better.

You offered a counter argument, I gave an assesment of why I thought Pogba had been better than simply decent at best, and asked you to justify your opinion. That’s perfectly acceptable and normal. Nothing major. No big deal. You chose not to do so, I believe because you know that you can’t do that.

 

[Marwood]

To be fair, even in a pub, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to challenge someone to say ‘give me examples of some bad games’. No conversation can ever reach any form of agreement if they were not required to be referenced to something as close to factual as possible. Even if that was as simple as asking someone who says ‘Pogba hasn’t had a good game all season’, for example, to simply commit to saying ‘I thought he was poor against Spurs’. At least we can then begin a debate from a position then. Because if they couldn’t commit to that, then their claim was exaggerated at best, and if I can do that with another 10 games that they also say ‘okay, he played well there’ then we may start to arrive at a point where they consider that perhaps they are not giving a fair account. Not because I am a know it all, but because they now assessed their own position and realised that they don’t actually think that at all. They may think ‘jeez, maybe I just don’t like the guy and I’ve been unfairly judging his performances because of it’. Maybe. That’s how people change opinions.

Without a requirement to do anything of the above, there really isn’t any point, and it is limited to ‘I don’t like Pogba and you do’. I always thought that this forum prided itself on being able to do a bit better than that. Even if it means we ultimately end in disagreement, it would be a higher level of conversation to mere pub talk if both sides were able to at least qualify how they arrived at their positions.

To be fair, we have some great posters on here, who not everything is always accepted, but they can construct an argument and defend it with reason. Ultimately, I think it is because a forum will contain a spectrum from the Jamie Carragher level analysts to the Dog and Duck level, and at times, two people from opposing ends may be trying to argue a singular point, which will naturally lead to frustration. And I respect that. For me personally, I like to talk football in depth, but am learning that not everyone wants to debate on that sort of level. So you will get a 4 paragraph analysis from me sometimes met with something not far from ‘Pogba is shit because he just is and I don’t like his hair’. In such cases, the responsibility would be on me to just not engage.

But that doesn’t necessarily make me right. I’ve had some great debates on here with people who think differently and we’re really challenging each other to qualify our positions. There’s nothing wrong with that either. In football we have all levels from DT and Troopz level to Daniel Taylor and Rory Smith. You get in where you fit in. I have my own style of preference and others will have theirs.

You will just never be able to get away with saying to me ‘Pogba only had 5 good games in x season’ without me asking you to name some bad ones. Not because I’m right and you’re wrong, but I have a different view and would like to see how you got to yours. I’d maybe be able to present 10 games and ask ‘do you honestly think PP was bad in these games?’. If the person then says ‘look, I’m not bothering with that’, that’s fair, but for the sake of debate, it would never change my mind, if that was ever the goal. They may say, ‘okay, I’m exaggerating, he’s had a few bad games’. Which they may then see is a very different reality from the version they have told themselves, which should then lead to the ‘why?’. Why would any fan exaggerate poor performances of their own player? Maybe after self-examining it, they will conclude that it is perhaps personal.

I don't know if you're making a general point but if you're talking specifically about this recent lovely debate you've got the initial character of it wrong.

At no point did I call Pogba bad or poor. I said he's had an ok or decent season. It really doesn't warrant all this reaction.

I explained that I've watched every game this season and that's my opinion after doing so. I also explained my opinion is based on watching multiple generations of footballers across decades(Jeppers called this "dick measuring") and therefore have a picture of what constitutes an excellent season. Like I'm sure you have.

I've not gone any further because it's not needed and I genuinely don't know what more to say to validate my opinion. Nor do I think a game by game breakdown to counter somebody else's game by game breakdown is interesting. It's laborious and would only cause further toxic debate.

Now despite me repeatedly saying I like Pogba as a guy yourself and about four others have convinced yoursleves I have some personal problem with him.

Maybe it's time to consider that you guys clearly really, really like Paul Pogba and react strongly when anybody does anything but offer praise.

You could almost call that a "narrative"

 

[Ali Dia]

He’s had important contributions, no doubt about it but he still wouldn’t be in our top 3 most important players this season. Maguire, Shaw, Bruno, Rashford would all be ahead of him. For a player as talented as Pogba to have a had a really good season he needs to be #1 or 2 on that list. He’s a fine player but injuries have messed up this season for him. Same as last year really? If he could have stayed fit this year he might have made the difference. We will never know.

 

[Rozay]

I don't know if you're making a general point but if you're talking specifically about this recent lovely debate you've got the initial character of it wrong.

At no point did I call Pogba bad or poor. I said he's had an ok or decent season. It really doesn't warrant all this reaction.

I explained that I've watched every game this season and that's my opinion after doing so. I also explained my opinion is based on watching multiple generations of footballers across decades(Jeppers called this "dick measuring") and therefore have a picture of what constitutes an excellent season. Like I'm sure you have.

I've not gone any further because it's not needed and I genuinely don't know what more to say to validate my opinion. Nor do I think a game by game breakdown to counter somebody else's game by game breakdown is interesting. It's laborious and would only cause further toxic debate.

Now despite me repeatedly saying I like Pogba as a guy yourself and about four others have convinced yoursleves I have some personal problem with him.

Maybe it's time to consider that you guys clearly really, really like Paul Pogba and react strongly when anybody does anything but offer praise.

You could almost call that a "narrative"

I am.

 

[Mainoldo]

Just in time for his contract to expire and Mino to take over the documentary talking shite about us. Hopefully we have this all wrapped up before they start filming or it could be cringe for the club.

Yep will show how cramply run we are.

I can’t wait. Really wished we did our own Amazon though.

 

[Dante]

I don't know if you're making a general point but if you're talking specifically about this recent lovely debate you've got the initial character of it wrong.

At no point did I call Pogba bad or poor. I said he's had an ok or decent season. It really doesn't warrant all this reaction.

I explained that I've watched every game this season and that's my opinion after doing so. I also explained my opinion is based on watching multiple generations of footballers across decades(Jeppers called this "dick measuring") and therefore have a picture of what constitutes an excellent season. Like I'm sure you have.

I've not gone any further because it's not needed and I genuinely don't know what more to say to validate my opinion. Nor do I think a game by game breakdown to counter somebody else's game by game breakdown is interesting. It's laborious and would only cause further toxic debate.

Now despite me repeatedly saying I like Pogba as a guy yourself and about four others have convinced yoursleves I have some personal problem with him.

Maybe it's time to consider that you guys clearly really, really like Paul Pogba and react strongly when anybody does anything but offer praise.

You could almost call that a "narrative"

If you want to put some numerical figures on it:

	Total	Goals for	Goals against
PL minutes with Pogba	1522​	27​	20​
PL minutes without Pogba	1268​	34​	14​

And that doesn't even take into account the fact that it's usually Fred+McTominay playing in the harder games. Though since Pogba has moved into the winger role, he's been a lot better.

I care less about individual highlights than the overall impact on the team's performance. On the latter, Pogba doesn't do enough for Manchester United to justify his star status.

 

[Olecurls99]

If you want to put some numerical figures on it:

	Total	Goals for	Goals against
PL minutes with Pogba	1522​	27​	20​
PL minutes without Pogba	1268​	34​	14​

And that doesn't even take into account the fact that it's usually Fred+McTominay playing in the harder games. Though since Pogba has moved into the winger role, he's been a lot better.

I care less about individual highlights than the overall impact on the team's performance. On the latter, Pogba doesn't do enough for Manchester United to justify his star status.

I'm gonna guess he was missing for Leeds and Southampton but was playing against Spurs.

That's a 21 goal swing in 270 minutes of football.

Team stats to rate a players performance aren't always the best.

I agree though he is far more effective in and around the opposition box. Always said it.

 

[Dante]

I'm gonna guess he was missing for Leeds and Southampton but was playing against Spurs.

That's a 21 goal swing in 270 minutes of football.

Team stats to rate a players performance aren't always the best.

I agree though he is far more effective in and around the opposition box. Always said it.

Team stats are the only thing that matters. If a player scores 0 goals in 30 wins, that's better for us than him scoring 30 goals in 30 defeats. Pogba is obviously not that extreme. But he is still very much a player whose reputation is undeservedly based on his highlights.

 

[Ole's screen]

Yep will show how cramply run we are.

I can’t wait. Really wished we did our own Amazon though.

It will show what Pogba wants it to show. And what it shows will have little to do with the truth either way. Insiders at Spurs have already talked about how the Spurs doc edited out all the times players would get into Jose about his ways and made it look like Jose was a teacher talking to schoolchildren. Also Amazon would like to remain on United's good side to try to persuade them into doing a documentary too so I doubt it'll be anything beyond saying "United was amazing but the media was shit". And show all his struggles here as on opposition to Jose or the media.

 

[Mainoldo]

It will show what Pogba wants it to show. And what it shows will have little to do with the truth either way. Insiders at Spurs have already talked about how the Spurs doc edited out all the times players would get into Jose about his ways and made it look like Jose was a teacher talking to schoolchildren. Also Amazon would like to remain on United's good side to try to persuade them into doing a documentary too so I doubt it'll be anything beyond saying "United was amazing but the media was shit". And show all his struggles here as on opposition to Jose or the media.

You’ll be surprised how stupid people don’t actually think they are stupid.

Editing wouldn’t save us like it hasn’t saved Sunderland.

 

[Ole's screen]

You’ll be surprised how stupid people don’t actually think they are stupid.

Editing wouldn’t save us like it hasn’t saved Sunderland.

You're right we are in as much disarray as Sunderland are. What exactly do you think is happening at the club? At worst we'll see like a one sided negotiation between Woodward and Raiola that ends the scene with a Raiola zinger cutting away before Woodward's response.

 

[Deleted 112447]

He will announce his new club at the end of the film.

 

[Jeppers7]

I'm gonna guess he was missing for Leeds and Southampton but was playing against Spurs.

That's a 21 goal swing in 270 minutes of football.

Team stats to rate a players performance aren't always the best.

I agree though he is far more effective in and around the opposition box. Always said it.

I imagine that is exactly why those stats have been produced. It’s a massive swing. I’d suggest Pogba not playing had no influence in the games against Southampton and Leeds.

 

[Mainoldo]

You're right we are in as much disarray as Sunderland are. What exactly do you think is happening at the club? At worst we'll see like a one sided negotiation between Woodward and Raiola that ends the scene with a Raiola zinger cutting away before Woodward's response.

Oh to be that fly on the wall trying to convince Bellingham and Haaland to come to the club. Great Amazon episode that would have been.

 

[Olecurls99]

Team stats are the only thing that matters. If a player scores 0 goals in 30 wins, that's better for us than him scoring 30 goals in 30 defeats. Pogba is obviously not that extreme. But he is still very much a player whose reputation is undeservedly based on his highlights.

The player who scored 30 goals had obviously performed better in that scenario, regardless of the teams results.

Pogba is the perfect example of contrasting a teams and players performance and not mixing them together. He's been very unfortunate, performing well in a woeful team and being blamed for the teams overall weakness. He's then been missing a lot for the teams upturn.

Hopefully he stays fit and his good performances can be appreciated in a good team.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

He's our Pogtain tonight.

 

[Phil Osophy]

Captain even ahead of Fernandes. Good sign I guess. Some months ago this was unthinkable.

 

[Ali Dia]

Captain means he’s either staying or Ole is starting the charm offensive. Either way. Good stuff. Best of luck to him!

 

[Andre Kagawa]

He's our Pogtain tonight.

Go to bed!

 

[Ole's screen]

Oh to be that fly on the wall trying to convince Bellingham and Haaland to come to the club. Great Amazon episode that would have been.

Probably went like so:

Bellingham/Haaland: " I'm at the point of my career where i really need game time to develop. Can I be an automatic first teamer?"
Us: "Well its United and we have 2-3 players for each position so you'll have to outcompete them for a spot."
Bellingham/Haaland: "Well can we get a release clause in case we can't get first team football?"
Us: "No. we're one of the biggest clubs in the world and we don't need to run our club on the business model of human trafficking 18-22 year olds."
Dortmund: "We do! Come here for guaranteed first team football even if we're losing left, right and center and we'll put a release clause to sell your for 50 mil 2 years from now when you can go to a proper club."
Bellingham/Haaland: "We're in!"

 

[AngliaRed]

Missed the game.

How was he as a captain?

 

[TrustInOle]

Cracking assist for the goal.

 

[RedIan]

good game, first yellow card wasnt, second one he didnt get i thought was.. we need him to win this cup.

 

[Borys]

Missed the game.

How was he as a captain?

If somebody asked me what kind of player Pogba is, I'd tell him to watch that 45' vs Granada.

He's a highlights player. In a clip of this performance, you will see brilliance, strength and technique. If you watch the full performance, you will also see sloppiness, lack of concentration and inconsistent passing.

Whatever you think of Pogba, he's very dangerous player - on both ends of the pitch.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

He was the best player on the pitch. I hate how I finally accept that he needs to leave for the team to move forward after years of defending him then he comes back and reminds everyone how incredibly talented he is. The phase of play that he got booked for just showed how good he is and how bad the ref was.

 

[mu4c_20le]

He is also a bit of a confidence player I think. If we let him go at the low ebb of his United career, he would've done a JLingz.

 

[charlenefan]

Ridiculous decision to book him which set the standard for the ref tonight

A lot of nearly moments for Pogba while he was on, I'm sure he'd of been better had he been given the 2nd half

 

[Moiraine]

When on song, he is so ridiculously good that he makes Bruno Fernandes looks an ordinary player.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Forget the dodgy ref.....I thought his passing was awful first half. He gave it away cheaply a lot.

Not a good performance at all and that's nothing to do with the yellow.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

When on song, he is so ridiculously good that he makes Bruno Fernandes looks an ordinary player.

He's scored 6 goals in 2 seasons combined.

That's a months work for Bruno.

 

[DoomSlayer]

I think he was great and the team was killing Granada until the fecking ref rattled him with the ridiculous yellow card.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Missed the game.

How was he as a captain?

 

[mu4c_20le]

He's scored 6 goals in 2 seasons combined.

That's a months work for Bruno.

Err, they play in different positions? Funny how you go back 2 seasons and stop just short of when he actually played as a 10