He’s good but he’s not that good
6
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He’s good but he’s not that good
Im slightly worried about this too. Will we get enough value if we are paying him X amount of money every week or will it all disintegrate as he goes into his 30s like it has done with Rooney Sanchez and DDG? The only thing I can say is he’s in his prime now. None of the above were even playing well when they got their deals. There’s also a big chance the glazers sell and don’t reinvest in anyone which would be the worst outcome of all for the fans.
There was no reason to bring Fred into it, they play entirely different roles and have totally different expectations. A player like Fred is essential to have to allow players like Pogba to play. Needlessly bashing one of our players is just bizarre.
It's a stick often used to beat him with, that he does try to take on players by sucking them in and then using his skill/physicality to break, which does lead to a fair share of lost balls that invites pressure quickly on to us. However, thing is that Ole has said he encourages it from him and can see why because it allows to break the lines, pull others out of position leaving open spaces for the attackers higher up.
In games where we may not be doing well, then that is used as a big negative, calling for him to keep it simple and play the easy passes. If we want easy passes then might as well play other midfielders to do the same.
The one thing I will say is he seems to have cut down taking a few more seconds on the ball each time, at least recently. Seems quicker in thought of what he wants to do next.
I'd say Shaw, Maguire and AWB(considering he's still relatively inexperienced). Bruno's a player who's difficult to categorise for me. I'm not sure where to put him.
I think most others have been decent.
Again just my opinion. I can't prove it to you with evidence. That would be impossible as its all subjective. Quoting your own post that gave a game by game breakdown isn't evidence Jeppers, it's just giving your opinion after watching the games. As I have done.
I've gone on a bit here so will leave it there.
Let's hope Pogba continues to play as he did against Spurs and in that sort of role. Very difficult to handle for any team.
Jesus wept.
Also highlighted by Mourinho in pre-match talks:
And he made the exact same pass Mourinho warned about in the match:
Jesus wept indeed...
I was replying to this
“His best attribute is that he can ping a ball from 50 years to create big chances from our own half”
Jesus wept
This right here is one of the biggest reasons we would be fecked without him or else a world class replacement.
No one on our team can pass like him. And the crazy thing is he does a lot of other stuff no one on our team can do.
That's why for me it will probably take two players to replace him if we want the team to improve
You’re right Brwned, as you often are, but I can see why the ‘lazy narrative’ thing gets suggested here. It isn’t uncommon to hear exaggerated numbers like ‘plays well once in 5 games’ and often, if asked to list them, people are unable to.
When Pogba was injured I read a few posters speaking matter-of-factly about how ‘as we know, he’s always in dreadful form when he returns from a long injury’. I mean, that’s factually not true. He was the best player on the pitch in his comeback against Milan last month, he was the best player on the pitch in his comeback vs Spurs last summer, he was the best player in the pitch when he came back in December against Watford, he was probably the best player on the pitch when he came back against Newcastle after a month out in his second season (setting up Martial’s header and scoring one himself from Rashford’s knock down).
Of course, opinions are one thing, but at times seem to be made up more of a sentiment than any qualifying realities. I’m not even saying it’s appropriate in this argument, I didn’t read the entire exchange, but I see it often enough. There’s opinions and then there’s saying ‘he was dreadful for weeks’ in a period a year ago where, if you check, he was being voted MOTM, for example. If these facts are never questioned, they just become accepted realities, as the caf is an environment where at times, others reading are happy or prefer to agree with such a version of events due to having the same shared sentiments, which they may or may not be able to defend with actual performances.
Exactly
Here’s an even simpler point, if somebody chooses to have an opinion, and doesn’t care to engage with others.....that’s great. That’s up to them. Crack on with your life, not engaging others and keeping your own opinions. Not sure why you chose to engage my post, you’re also on a forum where in general this is what people do..
Well yeah, I think it's a given that a lot of footy opinions are based more on sentiment than anything else, and there are some players that particularly applies to. Nani was another one. You really liked him, I was quite fond of him, some people really disliked him. Other than when he was on top of his game, he had a lot of detractors. He had some qualities that were particularly frustrating to others that weren't particularly frustrating to you, and some qualities that you particularly appreciated that others didn't. You wanted someone that took risks and had some flair, and found it easy to ignore the mistakes in that context, while you found the safe and predictable approach of Valencia unbearable at times.
A lot of footy analysis is emotional and can be defined by those moments of frustration. Pogba has the risk-taking flair plus the media circus. Those things don't frustrate me which makes it easier to focus on many of the other things he does, and a lot of those things are really valuable to me. Likewise for you and many others. So when Pogba is described as unbearably inconsistent by some people, it's because of the things they value and they focus on. When he's on the top of his game, he ticks all of those boxes. When he's just playing well, in my opinion, he ticks the boxes that I consider most important but he's not ticking the boxes other people care a lot more about.
We can make arguments for why we have those preferences, but there really isn't a "correct" way to assess a player which strips away those subjective preferences, and so we shouldn't expect people to agree with our "qualifying reality". The people who are very active in this thread have strong opinions on Pogba principally because they have very different sets of preferences. There would be many who wouldn't agree that he was the best player in those games you listed. That's not because they're avoiding the factual reality, they just don't value the same things you do.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have debates and share differing opinions on the same subjects, but some arguments are futile. Marwood wants different things from Pogba than Jeppers does. Marwood listing out his game-by-game analysis, only for Jeppers to say "no actually he was great here, here, here, you must be forgetting, let me remind you of x, y and z" is a level beyond futility - and it's condescending, unpleasant to read, etc.. Not engaging in that conversation doesn't mean he is failing to justify his viewpoint, he's just recognising where that path leads. Not wanting to go down that path is normal for most people.
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That’s true, and I get subjectivity in opinion - but I do strongly doubt that they were left thinking Pogba was ‘absolutely dreadful’ against Milan when he came on, or against Spurs when he came on after lockdown. Or Watford when he came back. Anyone who glances back at the post match threads will see that the praise was unanimous, as it was from every pundit and commentator. He has been voted MOTM in those games. We may as well give up pretending to be objective if you’re going to take those games and say he was absolutely dreadful, on the basis that ‘football is subjective and we value different things in players’.
I often disagree with others about various performances, and do appreciate that things are subjective. But I think I could rightfully question anyone who says Cavani was terrible on Sunday, for instance. Or Roy Keane was awful against Juventus, to use an extreme.
Could not disagree more with this comment! Pogba- in my eyes- is at his best when he is free from defensive duties and is able to roam and cause havoc all over the offensive third. When he was at Juve he had Pirlo et al allowing him that freedom. Playing as a 6 or 8 just seems to stunt his expressive nature and turn him into an average midfielder
Right....except I had no intention of doing that so...?
Asking someone to justify it simply lays out their belief in more detail, I believe it’s too easy to go on narrative with Pogba and more difficult to actually justify it.
To be honest I find the fact you’ve jumped into this, based on your own incorrect assumptions futile, condescending and unpleasant to read.
That’s not a lot of players and all defenders, fair enough. I’m a fan of all three....I couldn’t categorically say in my opinion Pogba has been better than them overall, but I also feel that certainly in the case of Maguire (who I think is much better than a lot give him credit for) and AWB, Pogba has been as good as them over the season performance wise, but then he had Covid and the injury so they have been more important over the season, but I don’t think they have outperformed Pogba.
But I’d certainly accept the appraisal. I think Pogba’s had a good season. I think Maguire and AWB too. I think Shaw is our player of the season and like you I find Bruno hard to position because his output has been by far the most important for us, whilst his performances for me have been below Pogba’s now overall. It’s hard to separate performances from goals and assists because in black and white terms stats are all that really matters to an extent. They win games but perhaps performances win trophies.
No, I'm sure they wouldn't call him dreadful in those games. But they'd probably call him dreadful post-covid, when coming back in December against PSG, etc. and expect that "every game" is not taken literally or forensically examined, not because they can't defend that opinion, but because that opinion was never intended to be taken literally, it was just a case of hyperbole, as is common in frustration-laden footy analysis. If they were to stretch back far enough I'm sure they could find another 5 games to fit their narrative. And so they have those games in mind, you have the other games in mind, and everyone uses the examples that they most easily remember - either from frustration or admiration - and then you get the disconnect.
It is obviously true that the criticism follows a narrative. The counter-criticism follows a narrative too. Punditry exists to shape and embellish those narratives, the dramatic presentation of the game is designed to feed into that, etc. Calling football analysis objective - in general - is pretending, it has never been that and it makes no sense for it to be that. Football without emotional investment is boring, it's baked into how we perceive the game. Forensic objective analysis is much more useful, rewarding and enjoyable in different disciplines, and it would be equally nonsensical to view those disciplines through that emotion-laden perception that is the default in football.
Honestly if you think he's just decent then you probably have something against him. It could even be subconscious and you wouldn't notice it. I think it's normal given the player and his agent's history with us, antics on social media, as well as the inconsistency in previous seasons.
I’d say Paul Pogba played brilliantly last game, 9/10 performance, and that this season he’s had a few 8/10 games, a few 5/10 games, and other than that been decent. The past two and a half seasons has clearly been blighted by poor stamina (initially) and injuries, with some short but very good spells in between. The two seasons before that was blighted by Mourinho. I’d say his first one and a half season after the Pogback, he was our best outfield player with Zlatan, but then it started to dip. He seems to fit well with Solskjær but has had rotten luck with injuries.
Yeah I'd agree with that, and one of the problems is that he often raises the standards himself with outrageous talent, and then when he fails to lift the team when we're not playing well, it goes double against him.
I've zero problem with Pogba on a personal level. I don't really like how younger people use social media but that's because I'm nearly 40. I'm dubious about its use with all footballers. With all humans. As a guy he seems a lot of fun and you want guys like that in the dressing room.
It's odd I have to clear that up given the absolute worst I've said is that he's been decent this season. Hardly slanderous.
Aside from a few on here I don't know anybody who thinks he's been excellent this season. None of my pals, I don't see it from journalists or pundits. At times his coaches have preferred Fred and McTominay.
If you can show me examples of his season being called excellent elsewhere please go ahead. If not then maybe consider it's not some wacky, narrative driven, subconscious bias. Just an opinion.
Yes, people - including me - expect too much of him. I think it includes Ole, Raiola and himself. Ole expect him to wisen up defensively, like most would be able to, but he seems a slow learner at that - back tracking, reaction time to pick up players, substantial pressure, instinctive beahavior in our own box (oh god ...) and the worst, how not to gift the oppo two or three grand counter-on-counter-chances every game. He is deadly frustrating in midfield, when given much defensive responsibility.
Still, his mean level is so much above average that when he fits the team roughly, we are the better for it. His status on here would undoubtedly have been much better by now if he’d dealt better with Raiola and Mourinho. Solskjær is as likely to lift his career back on track as Zidane is, if you ask me.
Big players get paid big money. That's the wage structure.
To be fair, many aspects football can actually be empirically measured, if that‘s what you mean by “objective”. Sports in general have a specific end-goal unlike film, music or dance, which is entirely up to the viewer experience, perception or whatever. You can’t just chug it as being emotional.
For me, while “good football is subjective” is a useless defence for a player that I particularly enjoy watching but hated by others, I think narratives also need to be looked at individually rather generally? Of course, trends, bias, favouritism, etc, exist and can be often be noticed by someone who is more educated in football, but it’s pretty much untrue to judge groups of narratives collectively. For example, if someone claims that Pogba is having a poor season, the next step we can probably do is to look at how he played individually on a game-by-game basis. Personally, I think it is much more worthwhile and productive. People can of course have different opinions but if the two people talking are close in terms of being informed and insightful they can have a discussion more in-depth than “It’s my opinion, respect it”, “Nah its just a waste of time”.
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Thank you...I totally agree. How that can be construed as ‘condescending and unpleasant to read’ is beyond me? I cant if I’m honest get my head around the depth of the posters concern with what I asked of the person I was discussing with? Seemed an extreme reaction to me.
Empirical measures to assess the performance of a midfielder? I haven’t seen anything that comes remotely close to providing an empirical assessment of a player like Pogba, or Keane, Zidane or the various others he’s compared to.
There is a minority of footy fans that love these new footy stat acronyms, but from what I can tell, the vast majority would agree that stats don’t tell you how good someone like Keane is / was. Trophies have been taken as the best proxy but recognised for its obvious limitations.
If people believe most discussions about footy attempt to be empirical, I’ll leave them to that. It’s certainly not the kind of conversations I’d be having with mates in a pub. That’s not what most people enjoy about footy discussions, in my experience. So when someone attempted to push and prod someone into taking that position, I thought it worth pointing out, it’s not evasive to not want to go down that route. For most people it isn’t enjoyable, it has nothing to do with how valid or well formed their opinion is.
No need to take the tangent any further. I’ll leave the circular conversations in this thread to everyone else.
Imagine this conversation isn't online but instead two guys in a pub. They're chatting about Pogba. They have a slightly different opinion.
Can you see how bizarre it would be if one started demanding metrics, game by game breakdowns, definitions of objective evaluation, assesment of inherent bias and subconcious impairment.
The other guy doesn't want to get involved with all that and is told he's dodging and running away.
I think people would start slowly backing away.
Pogmentary
Just stop it
Just stop it
I guess his agent talked him into this, few more ££££ in that fat mouths pocket.
Oh here we go.....you were discussing until the other guy jumped in. You gave your list of players that you thought were better than decent...So..Ok.
Yeah major incident developing. Better back off boys.
You initially brought up metrics and game by game breakdowns when saying he’d given the ball away in this game and was poor just last week in this game and had been only decent overall. I’d fully expect an in pub conversation to go along the lines of “nah...he’s been really good for two months prior, he was good in this game etc”. I just extended the period and sample size you mentioned and offered you the opportunity to give your own evaluation on a game by game breakdown.
I didn’t mention inherent bias either or subconscious impairment, in fact you were the one that went off on a cock sizing measurement.
This topic has been derailed by someone for some reason that I don’t think had anything to do with the post more some bizarre issue he has with me. There’s no major situation developing here it’s pathetic. Brwneds comments were frankly bizarre on an Internet forum where people have debates.
It’s perfectly normal in life to be asked to justify your opinion, particularly when you offer that opinion yourself, freely, in response to someone with a different opinion. Something that you did. Let’s not pretend that some sort of major incident, or anything out of the ordinary happened here. You offered a counter argument, I gave an assesment of why I thought Pogba had been better than simply decent at best, and asked you to justify your opinion. That’s perfectly acceptable and normal. Nothing major. No big deal. You chose not to do so, I believe because you know that you can’t do that.
This is getting fecking bizarre this.
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You are both right in the sense that platform where the discussion is held matters. However we are not in a pub, we are in an internet forum. There are no word limits and nobody pressured to answer immediately. You can state your opinion, come back week later with an explanation and people will still read every word of it. I think most people come to forums with the genuine intention to gain information and discuss something. It is a free space, I'm fine with people just putting their thoughts out and leaving. Similarly, I don't think there's anything wrong with someone wanting an explanation for another's thoughts.
To be fair, even in a pub, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to challenge someone to say ‘give me examples of some bad games’. No conversation can ever reach any form of agreement if they were not required to be referenced to something as close to factual as possible. Even if that was as simple as asking someone who says ‘Pogba hasn’t had a good game all season’, for example, to simply commit to saying ‘I thought he was poor against Spurs’. At least we can then begin a debate from a position then. Because if they couldn’t commit to that, then their claim was exaggerated at best, and if I can do that with another 10 games that they also say ‘okay, he played well there’ then we may start to arrive at a point where they consider that perhaps they are not giving a fair account. Not because I am a know it all, but because they now assessed their own position and realised that they don’t actually think that at all. They may think ‘jeez, maybe I just don’t like the guy and I’ve been unfairly judging his performances because of it’. Maybe. That’s how people change opinions.
Without a requirement to do anything of the above, there really isn’t any point, and it is limited to ‘I don’t like Pogba and you do’. I always thought that this forum prided itself on being able to do a bit better than that. Even if it means we ultimately end in disagreement, it would be a higher level of conversation to mere pub talk if both sides were able to at least qualify how they arrived at their positions.
To be fair, we have some great posters on here, who not everything is always accepted, but they can construct an argument and defend it with reason. Ultimately, I think it is because a forum will contain a spectrum from the Jamie Carragher level analysts to the Dog and Duck level, and at times, two people from opposing ends may be trying to argue a singular point, which will naturally lead to frustration. And I respect that. For me personally, I like to talk football in depth, but am learning that not everyone wants to debate on that sort of level. So you will get a 4 paragraph analysis from me sometimes met with something not far from ‘Pogba is shit because he just is and I don’t like his hair’. In such cases, the responsibility would be on me to just not engage.
But that doesn’t necessarily make me right. I’ve had some great debates on here with people who think differently and we’re really challenging each other to qualify our positions. There’s nothing wrong with that either. In football we have all levels from DT and Troopz level to Daniel Taylor and Rory Smith. You get in where you fit in. I have my own style of preference and others will have theirs.
You will just never be able to get away with saying to me ‘Pogba only had 5 good games in x season’ without me asking you to name some bad ones. Not because I’m right and you’re wrong, but I have a different view and would like to see how you got to yours. I’d maybe be able to present 10 games and ask ‘do you honestly think PP was bad in these games?’. If the person then says ‘look, I’m not bothering with that’, that’s fair, but for the sake of debate, it would never change my mind, if that was ever the goal. They may say, ‘okay, I’m exaggerating, he’s had a few bad games’. Which they may then see is a very different reality from the version they have told themselves, which should then lead to the ‘why?’. Why would any fan exaggerate poor performances of their own player? Maybe after self-examining it, they will conclude that it is perhaps personal.
Just in time for his contract to expire and Mino to take over the documentary talking shite about us. Hopefully we have this all wrapped up before they start filming or it could be cringe for the club.
Or an inability to admit that they were wrong.
Well said Rozay. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter
16-17: Probably his best season for us
17-18: 6 goals and 10 assists in 25 PL starts FROM MIDFIELD
18-19: 13 goals and 9 assists. Again FROM MIDFIELD
19-20 Injury plagued, 13 PL starts
20-21 Injury plagued again but has been memorably good against Spurs, Milan, Brighton, Fulham, Burnley, Villa and the thrashing of Leipzig.
The thrashing of Pogba has to stop. The crazy thing is, the criticism was at its height when he was putting up those crazy goal involvement stats.
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