[dirkey]

Your entitled ur opinion, so is everyone.

Looking through the caf ratings for the season, not the last few weeks, only Baily Jones Shaw matic Lukaku and Martial are higher rated over the season.

Some of those have only played a handful of games really so you'd have to ignore the ratings there.

He's more assists 14, than any other player in the squad and joint second MOM's of all our outfield players.

So unless your judging him against a different criteria than the rest of the squad then the problem isn't Pogba.

That's a completely different argument. The comment I was replying to stated he had been consistent. Whatever else you want to say about Pogba, he has certainly not been consistent. He has had moments and games where he has been sublime, and others where he has been absolutely appalling. Definitely not consistent.

You know it's possible that players have a lower rating than him and were consistent right?

 

[Jeppers7]

That's a completely different argument. The comment I was replying to stated he had been consistent. Whatever else you want to say about Pogba, he has certainly not been consistent. He has had moments and games where he has been sublime, and others where he has been absolutely appalling. Definitely not consistent.

You know it's possible that players have a lower rating than him and were consistent right?

I can see how that would work yes, however most of our players are rating an average of around 6 or less, Pogba 6.1. So then consistently poor would not be a positive trait in my opinion.

I'd look for the reasons why our players are performing poorly overall before I take one of our better performing players to task.

 

[dirkey]

I can see how that would work yes, however most of our players are rating an average of around 6 or less, Pogba 6.1. So then consistently poor would not be a positive trait in my opinion.

I'd look for the reasons why our players are performing poorly overall before I take one of our better performing players to task.

That's absolutely fair enough. I just had issue with him being called consistent.

Incidentally, I personally don't read much into player ratings by fans. Fans are notoriously biased.

 

[The Original]

Yes agreed, took me a while to respond but it was a bit silly.

I just shook my head at that post that you're quoting. Ludicrous assertion. Pogba goes missing in big games because of his teammates. Nothing to do with him. Honest to God, I thought I'd read it all. I was wrong.

You're entitled to not agree with me but here are the basic facts:

1. If Pogba doesn't play well against better teams it is either because he is not as good as the other players who are competing at that level or something else is responsible.

2. An elite player is one who is better than the rest. If Pogba always has a great game against poor opposition then it's clear that he is a better player than the rest.

3. Based on superficial analysis Pogba shows the same level of dominance as other elite level players do when they play against poorer opposition. This indicates some parity. Pogba has also played against top players at the very top level when playing for France and he has played well. Clearly there is no question of his ability, and it seems likely then, that there are some other variables to blame for Pogba's performances against top teams.

A few years ago when Man Utd played Barca, one Barca player who i can't remember said "we double marked the most intelligent players and left the others free". In such games, where there is a clear gulf in quality between certain players and their teammates, it is very easy for them to go missing. This is especially true of a position like midfield where your game basically depends on how everyone else is playing. Fore example, a midfielder can't pull off a cracking pass if no one is making a cracking run or if 8 of the 10 outfield players are back in the defensive third as is frequently the case in these big games for Utd.

 

[promisedlanchiao]

Who'd have said that six weeks ago ?

Guess what? In these 6 weeks and even before that, Rom has been excellent and even got himself into the 6 nominees for the Premier League POTM for March due to his class performances lately. So yeah, apart from one dry spell, Rom has actually been our most consistently good player this season. This is why I don’t like it when people put time periods on things as if it’s going to prove something.

Back to Pogba though, I hope that his brilliant game against swansea and his top performance for france was a sign of him being in the process of getting back to doing what we know he can do so well, which is making brilliant cross-field passes, beautiful assists and scoring great goals (not seen that much for United so far unfortunately). Of course though, we know his talent and purely for this reason I was in total favour of keeping him even when he was playing like a drunk man on crack.

 

[kouroux]

Your entitled ur opinion, so is everyone.

Looking through the caf ratings for the season, not the last few weeks, only Baily Jones Shaw matic Lukaku and Martial are higher rated over the season.

Some of those have only played a handful of games really so you'd have to ignore the ratings there.

He's more assists 14, than any other player in the squad and joint second MOM's of all our outfield players.

So unless your judging him against a different criteria than the rest of the squad then the problem isn't Pogba.

Should that be an issue, the guy's talent makes us expect much more than he has delivered in terms of consistency.

 

[Jeppers7]

That's absolutely fair enough. I just had issue with him being called consistent.

Incidentally, I personally don't read much into player ratings by fans. Fans are notoriously biased.

Indeed, but over a spread of 2k you'll get balance. There's more of an overreaction to Pogba's poor form than anything else, so it's probably scewed in the negative in his case anyway.

As for consistent again everyone is entitled to an opinion, I'm referencing the level of criticism against the level of performance. Until his injury imo Pogba was crucial to us and performing consistently well. Pre injury he had a spell of good form after a few nothing games, then he had obvious issues and his form fell off a cliff.

The level of criticism is akin to Memphis or worse. It doesn't reflect the reality, I'd suggest it's more of a personal reflection in the same way the Ronaldo criticism never really reflected his overall performance or ability in his early years.

Just don't like him.

 

[Jeppers7]

Guess what? In these 6 weeks and even before that, Rom has been excellent and even got himself into the 6 nominees for the Premier League POTM for March due to his class performances lately. So yeah, apart from one dry spell, Rom has actually been our most consistently good player this season. This is why I don’t like it when people put time periods on things as if it’s going to prove something.

Back to Pogba though, I hope that his brilliant game against swansea and his top performance for france was a sign of him being in the process of getting back to doing what we know he can do so well, which is making brilliant cross-field passes, beautiful assists and scoring great goals (not seen that much for United so far unfortunately). Of course though, we know his talent and purely for this reason I was in total favour of keeping him even when he was playing like a drunk man on crack.

6 weeks takes you to the beginning of March.

No he really hasn't been our most consistently good player over the whole season. He's had a few spells of awful form, he's had games where everything has bounced off him. Spells where he's looked lazy to the point where the fans were on his back for not making any effort. He's been cheered off the pitch as many wondered what it would take for him to be replaced.

He's scored goals, not too many in the league though. I'd say he's had a 6/10 season. A 7/10 last few weeks.

 

[VeevaVee]

Has there ever been a player as good as Pogba, who's played as consistently well as Pogba has this season, who's been so completely lambasted for a spell of poor form ?

Ronaldo is the only example I can think of

He had a pretty decent start. That's it. Last game was better but you'd hope that was him having an average game, not a good one.

 

[Litch]

Some players just arrive and having a negative view of them is always one game away. It's then those haters focus on things that they can't do, and never the things they can. The read the narrative from newspapers and because it validates their opinions, it becomes 'factual'. These players become responsible for everything negative that's happening on the pitch and then the spotlight focuses on what they are doing off it. Funny haircuts, fancy clothes, expensive cars like these are any references or clues to players bad form yet when playing well, these are forgotten.

Pogs lives for football. Never a sorry that he's got a poor attitude to the game. His problem like the very best is his bar is set much higher than most and anything below that is seen as failure. Playing for this club isn't easy and the level of expectation is massive especially when things aren't going well. I think the pressure to perform under Jose has effected him like others in the club. Don't want to blame Jose but the demands he's putting on players I believe out of frustration on what's going on up the road isn't helping.....I just don't think it's a happy camp at the moment.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Your entitled ur opinion, so is everyone.

Looking through the caf ratings for the season, not the last few weeks, only Baily Jones Shaw matic Lukaku and Martial are higher rated over the season.

Some of those have only played a handful of games really so you'd have to ignore the ratings there.

He's more assists 14, than any other player in the squad and joint second MOM's of all our outfield players.

So unless your judging him against a different criteria than the rest of the squad then the problem isn't Pogba.

There is some truth in this post. Up until the Burnley game, away from home, I thought Pogba was very good throughout the season.

If I were to summarise his season:

He started the season in fire, got injured, came back against Newcastle and looked to be as good as he was pre-injury. Was really good against Watford and brilliant till the sending off against Arsenal. Continued his magic in the CL against CSKA. Was OK in the three draws in December - thought we played quite well against Leicester and he was at the heart of it. He continued his form against Everton and Stoke, and then it went to shit. At one point in the season, he had as many assists as KDB in half the games.

 

[M Bison]

You're entitled to not agree with me but here are the basic facts:

1. If Pogba doesn't play well against better teams it is either because he is not as good as the other players who are competing at that level or something else is responsible. This is fairly obvious though isn't it and is the same for every single professional or even Sunday league footballer?

2. An elite player is one who is better than the rest. If Pogba always has a great game against poor opposition then it's clear that he is a better player than the rest. He doesn't always have a great game against the rest though, he played well against a bottom 6 side at home which is what you'd expect. This doesn't mean he's an elite level player or better than the rest though!

3. Based on superficial analysis Pogba shows the same level of dominance as other elite level players do when they play against poorer opposition. This indicates some parity. Pogba has also played against top players at the very top level when playing for France and he has played well. Clearly there is no question of his ability, and it seems likely then, that there are some other variables to blame for Pogba's performances against top teams. See point below!

A few years ago when Man Utd played Barca, one Barca player who i can't remember said "we double marked the most intelligent players and left the others free". In such games, where there is a clear gulf in quality between certain players and their teammates, it is very easy for them to go missing. This is especially true of a position like midfield where your game basically depends on how everyone else is playing. Fore example, a midfielder can't pull off a cracking pass if no one is making a cracking run or if 8 of the 10 outfield players are back in the defensive third as is frequently the case in these big games for Utd.

A top player should be able to play well in an average team. The fact Pogba doesn't typically play well against a top team indicates one thing for me - he still has a long way to go to be considered a world class player. You can blame other players in the team but there's only one person at fault when any player has a poor game.

 

[backtowhiteside]

He needs to step up, big time. I want him to dominate midfield again starting tomorrow.

...............De Gea..............

Valencia...Bailly...Rojo...Shaw

....Alexis...Matic...Pogba....

....Mata...Lukaku...Martial...

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

There is some truth in this post. Up until the Burnley game, away from home, I thought Pogba was very good throughout the season.

If I were to summarise his season:

He started the season in fire, got injured, came back against Newcastle and looked to be as good as he was pre-injury. Was really good against Watford and brilliant till the sending off against Arsenal. Continued his magic in the CL against CSKA. Was OK in the three draws in December - thought we played quite well against Leicester and he was at the heart of it. He continued his form against Everton and Stoke, and then it went to shit. At one point in the season, he had as many assists as KDB in half the games.

Spot on with the summary. And I believe the recent poor form came from some kind of injury.

 

[dirkey]

You're entitled to not agree with me but here are the basic facts:

1. If Pogba doesn't play well against better teams it is either because he is not as good as the other players who are competing at that level or something else is responsible.

2. An elite player is one who is better than the rest. If Pogba always has a great game against poor opposition then it's clear that he is a better player than the rest.

3. Based on superficial analysis Pogba shows the same level of dominance as other elite level players do when they play against poorer opposition. This indicates some parity. Pogba has also played against top players at the very top level when playing for France and he has played well. Clearly there is no question of his ability, and it seems likely then, that there are some other variables to blame for Pogba's performances against top teams.

A few years ago when Man Utd played Barca, one Barca player who i can't remember said "we double marked the most intelligent players and left the others free". In such games, where there is a clear gulf in quality between certain players and their teammates, it is very easy for them to go missing. This is especially true of a position like midfield where your game basically depends on how everyone else is playing. Fore example, a midfielder can't pull off a cracking pass if no one is making a cracking run or if 8 of the 10 outfield players are back in the defensive third as is frequently the case in these big games for Utd.

In answer to your facts:

1: His mentality, that's the big something else that is responsible in my opinion.
2: I'd disagree with your definition of an elite player for a start. An elite player is someone who performs and has a massive impact on games against the very best opposition. A good player is one who is better than poor players.
3: I don't watch French matches, so I can't really comment. However, I have read numerous times that they're unhappy with him, that he doesn't influence games all that much.

I agree, there is no question of ability. it's a mentality thing, in my opinion. Determination, drive. All those. He has all the abilities, that's plain to see. He doesn't show them against top opposition often enough however. He's definitely not elite in other words.

 

[dirkey]

Indeed, but over a spread of 2k you'll get balance. There's more of an overreaction to Pogba's poor form than anything else, so it's probably scewed in the negative in his case anyway.

As for consistent again everyone is entitled to an opinion, I'm referencing the level of criticism against the level of performance. Until his injury imo Pogba was crucial to us and performing consistently well. Pre injury he had a spell of good form after a few nothing games, then he had obvious issues and his form fell off a cliff.

The level of criticism is akin to Memphis or worse. It doesn't reflect the reality, I'd suggest it's more of a personal reflection in the same way the Ronaldo criticism never really reflected his overall performance or ability in his early years.

Just don't like him.

I definitely don't agree with this. Look back through the thread and you'll see the number of people who make insane excuses for him every time he has a bad game, it's always someone else's fault. There's as much overreaction on both sides.

I agree with you that pre injury he was absolutely crucial. But he's back long enough that injury is not the reason now. And the problem that I, and many, have with him is his seeming lack of application & awareness at times. It looks like he's downed tools to some extent. His nose is out of joint about something.

The level of criticism is nowhere near Memphis. You get the odd poster who goes off on one, he should be sold etc, but that's not the main. Most people realise he has all the tools, just that he doesn't influence games as much as he should, and that he's not all his over the top supporters make him out to be. He's a good player, nothing more right now, but with the potential to be world class.

 

[M Bison]

He needs to step up, big time. I want him to dominate midfield again starting tomorrow.

...............De Gea..............

Valencia...Bailly...Rojo...Shaw

....Alexis...Matic...Pogba....

....Mata...Lukaku...Martial...

Sanchez in a midfield 3

 

[promisedlanchiao]

6 weeks takes you to the beginning of March.

No he really hasn't been our most consistently good player over the whole season. He's had a few spells of awful form, he's had games where everything has bounced off him. Spells where he's looked lazy to the point where the fans were on his back for not making any effort. He's been cheered off the pitch as many wondered what it would take for him to be replaced.

He's scored goals, not too many in the league though. I'd say he's had a 6/10 season. A 7/10 last few weeks.

Fair post. I would say he’s had a 7.5/10 season and/but he was only terrible from october to early december, and apart from that he’s been class.

 

[Jeppers7]

I definitely don't agree with this. Look back through the thread and you'll see the number of people who make insane excuses for him every time he has a bad game, it's always someone else's fault. There's as much overreaction on both sides.

I agree with you that pre injury he was absolutely crucial. But he's back long enough that injury is not the reason now. And the problem that I, and many, have with him is his seeming lack of application & awareness at times. It looks like he's downed tools to some extent. His nose is out of joint about something.

The level of criticism is nowhere near Memphis. You get the odd poster who goes off on one, he should be sold etc, but that's not the main. Most people realise he has all the tools, just that he doesn't influence games as much as he should, and that he's not all his over the top supporters make him out to be. He's a good player, nothing more right now, but with the potential to be world class.

I think it then depends on your outlook, yours is balanced but with a negative slant. I think mine is balanced with a positive slant. So the negative posts stand out to me and vice versa.

In terms of the player, I think he needs to up his game. In terms of the manager, it's his job to find the best way of getting the best out of his players. My worry is that until we signed Sanchez Pogba was due to get more freedom in a role he preferred. Then things seemed to change.

Saturday's game was Pogba being disciplined, for large portions of the game he was deeper than Matic. Covering behind. Playing things very simple. He did a very solid job. In a 2 in the middle of the pitch I think he can do it with ease. It won't get the best out of him though. He won't hit the heights he is capable of playing reserved. I don't think he will stick around for ever to do that role.

 

[cyberman]

Maybe we should test the waters by offering him as part exchange for Kroos / Verrati

 

[dirkey]

I think it then depends on your outlook, yours is balanced but with a negative slant. I think mine is balanced with a positive slant. So the negative posts stand out to me and vice versa.

In terms of the player, I think he needs to up his game. In terms of the manager, it's his job to find the best way of getting the best out of his players. My worry is that until we signed Sanchez Pogba was due to get more freedom in a role he preferred. Then things seemed to change.

Saturday's game was Pogba being disciplined, for large portions of the game he was deeper than Matic. Covering behind. Playing things very simple. He did a very solid job. In a 2 in the middle of the pitch I think he can do it with ease. It won't get the best out of him though. He won't hit the heights he is capable of playing reserved. I don't think he will stick around for ever to do that role.

Yeah, you're probably right there - what we notice is based on our outlook.

I hope Jose can find a way to get the best out of Sanchez & Pogba. I'd like to see him try Sanchez on the right. Pogba & Marital had a good understanding, so bring him back in. Doesn't seem to want to do that for whatever reason.

 

[Kag]

Maybe we should test the waters by offering him as part exchange for Kroos / Verrati

Well that would be a stupid thing to do.

 

[Canagel]

Looking forward to see what this guy can do tomorrow. He hasn't played a lot of big games since he arrived which is strange but tommorow we get another chance to see if he can make a difference against top top opposition. He didn't play at Etihad last season or OT this season so City aren't going to be familiar with him in our team. Let's see if he can step it up.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Has there ever been a player as good as Pogba, who's played as consistently well as Pogba has this season, who's been so completely lambasted for a spell of poor form ?

Ronaldo is the only example I can think of

What on earth

 

[breakout67]

I think it's pretty much confirmed that Pogba's poor form is related to himself and not tactics, I would not be surprised if Raiola told him to under perform as a way to protest for a better contract.

 

[roonster09]

I think it's pretty much confirmed that Pogba's poor form is related to himself and not tactics, I would not be surprised if Raiola told him to under perform as a way to protest for a better contract.

How would that even help the player? If anything playing well and saying he'll leave will help.

Everyone is getting way too creative with their stories.

 

[breakout67]

How would that even help the player? If anything playing well and saying he'll leave will help.

Everyone is getting way too creative with their stories.

The first part has been confirmed by Guardiola; either Pogba wanted out of the club or wanted a better contract and so was being offered to other clubs.

The second part was a bit of creative liberty from me. Perhaps Raiola knows the importance of Pogba to the team and so did a powerplay. It would be quite difficult to get rid of Pogba, so we would be inclined to give him a better contract.

 

[Rajma]

He should sack Raiola if he wants to win over the fans.

 

[Bobski]

Well that would be a stupid thing to do.

You would like to get one of those to play with Pogba ideally. Having said that Verratti has just as many, if not more, questions over him than Pogba. His big match performances and temperament would be a concern.

 

[roonster09]

The first part has been confirmed by Guardiola; either Pogba wanted out of the club or wanted a better contract and so was being offered to other clubs.

The second part was a bit of creative liberty from me. Perhaps Raiola knows the importance of Pogba to the team and so did a powerplay. It would be quite difficult to get rid of Pogba, so we would be inclined to give him a better contract.

How is and how can pep confirm first part when it's about performance and tactics. You try way too hard and like Jose' PR machine.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

NegCafé

 

[breakout67]

How is and how can pep confirm first part when it's about performance and tactics. You try way too hard and like Jose' PR machine.

Because agents don't offer a player to other teams without the players permission. So either Pogba wanted out or wanted a better contract...he was unhappy with the current situation at the club.

People have already said earlier in this thread that the money Sanchez was on could have affected him, and we have evidence to support that now.

The manager can improve tactically, but Pogba was doing fine in the same role earlier in the season. All of a sudden he turns into a pub player barely running, misplacing basic passes etc.

Based on what I have read about agents, it is possible that this is the agent manipulating Pogba for more money as well. But I don't know if that's the case here.

 

[JPRouve]

Because agents don't offer a player to other teams without the players permission. So either Pogba wanted out or wanted a better contract...he was unhappy with the current situation at the club.

People have already said earlier in this thread that the money Sanchez was on could have affected him, and we have evidence to support that now.

The manager can improve tactically, but Pogba was doing fine in the same role earlier in the season. All of a sudden he turns into a pub player barely running, misplacing basic passes etc.

Based on what I have read about agents, it is possible that this is the agent manipulating Pogba for more money as well. But I don't know if that's the case here.

We have no evidence to support that, we have assumptions on an assumption.

 

[Bobski]

Deal with Raiola and this comes as no surprise.

 

[Adisa]

He should sack Raiola if he wants to win over the fans.

A goal tomorrow would do better than sacking an agent.

 

[breakout67]

We have no evidence to support that, we have assumptions on an assumption.

Well yes, there will be assumptions in there, you are not going to get a direct confirmation of such a thing.

A month ago, I did not buy the idea that Sanchez would affect Pogba, that he should be happy that a world class player is coming in. But, there is a good chance that Pogba's agent has been trying to get a better contract for him and he would get permission from Pogba to do this.

 

[FujiVice]

If the money Sanchez is on is affecting Pogba, then he needs a swift slap. "I'm only on £250,000 a week, I'm so depressed."

 

[Rajma]

A goal tomorrow would do better than sacking an agent.

It’s quite clear who is messing around with Pogba’s head though, so long term if we want to have him settled he should get rid of him imo.

 

[clarkydaz]

A goal tomorrow would do better than sacking an agent.

a shot on target would be nice

 

[NinjaZombie]

a shot on target would be nice

I'd be happy if he didn't misplace a 5 yard pass.